Satori

I have recently come to understand the meaninglessness and pointlessness of conversation, especially as it pertains to spiritual matters. Since all language is arbitrary, and nothing has any meaning except what we give it, everything can be debated infinitely. If everything is infinite debate, and there can be no "winner"; and we do not debate to change anyone's mind because all are free to believe as they will; and there is no ultimate "right answer" to any question; then what can we possibly gain from such debate. There is no "sharing of ideas" because we can not agree on common definitions and we have no common "starting point" to form a basis for information sharing.

It all kind of comes down to posting an idea that represents your understanding of a given thought or ideal, and then watching pages of debate over what exactly you meant by what you said. Often resulting in the original posters being told they are wrong about what they meant. It all seems very silly to me at the moment.

I think I'm going to take some time to contemplate this new understanding, but I figured I'd throw this out there just in case someone can respond and help me make sense of a website (and world) in which all communication is abstract and arbitrary, and thus ultimately pointless.

Don’t be discouraged…
I wouldn’t say that it was pointless at all. I would think that it depends on what your objective was.

If you want to “persuade” others to your way of thinking then I would say that yes, it is futile. But if you want to openly engage and exchange ideas, then it’s great. Often times I can read something and be given a “new” way of looking at said thing. That can sometimes help me to better understand what it is I believe. Or bring into question something I held to be true.

As selfish as it sounds, I participate in these conversations for my benefit and if something I say can help another than great! But I feel that for any of this to beneficial to any of us we must approach it with a truely open mind. And be willing to see things from another’s perspective; which is not always so easy to do.

Many times, we can try to get someone to see it from our view point or from our perspective, and this just isn’t possible. All we can do is state our mind and move on. As the old adage goes… "you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink."

Debate, I prefer discussion, challanges our beliefs and if my beliefs don't hold up I need to reflect on my position. Debate is about me changing how I think not changing how others think. I can be an influence but I can't "make" them change.

FYI Don't argue with a fool they will never understand and you don't want to go down to their lever. Practice tolerance and ignore them.

I'm guessing you are referring to my post in the "Dark Sider" thread...

My biggest issues are when people try to tell me what I am.... (currently not the case with that thread... I'm the one asking the questions)

To have an intelligent conversation, someone (or both) has to want to understand....

I seek to understand the point of both of William and Khaos... I will question them, but I would never mean to disrespectfully....

Not that they are "right", but they are "right" for their beliefs....

To figure out who I am, I compare to everything not me.... The onlybway to do this is by questioning, in this case, lol....

I am defining myself in these conversations....

Ultimately I could care less if people don't view things my way. They are missing out on some great stuff if they don't

Often times I use others as a sounding board for my own thoughts. Talking about what you think makes you order it in your mind. It helps you define those thoughts for yourself.

Other times, i genuinely want to know what other people are thinking, though asking about these things often leads them to think you have a point with the questioning. So they think its some kind of trap.

Jestor wrote: I'm guessing you are referring to my post in the "Dark Sider" thread...

I'm not actually referring specifically to any single post or poster. I have spent the past few days reading many posts from many people. I often see them as saying the "same thing", but they will quibble for pages over what the other means. And I'm not blameless in this either. I have re-read my own posts on various threads, some of them going back to when I first joined and have noticed that, universally, almost no information was shared, almost no one ever had their own "ah-ha" moment in which they even understood what the other person said, much less had the opportunity to agree or disagree with it. But for days (and occasionally weeks) on end various contributors would argue over what was said and what was meant...and even more ridiculously, who is "right" and who is "wrong".

For the record, I'm not discouraged in following my path. I'm only questioning the wisdom of "how" I'm currently following. The constant questioning and questing is how I grow as a person, and how I learn what my spirituality means, to me. I'm not intending to "leave" TOTJO, I actually do like it here, and I actually enjoy conversing with some of the members (and even a few "regulars" on the guest list). I'm just thinking right now.

I would like to point out an example of what I'm talking about in the OP tho, that has happened on this very thread...

Rickie says: "Debate, I prefer discussion"...

I'm not pointing this out to pick on Rickie so please don't "jump" me. LOL And Rickie, don't get angry with me and feel like you have to "come back" with anything, you just provided a relevant example for me, so I'm using it.

Anyway, choosing to nit-pick over the word "debate" like that and saying that he prefers the word "discussion" is a prime example of the quibbling that I'm talking about. The spirit of what was said was known. This is obvious by the response. But did he choose to accept the words chosen to continue the topic at hand? No, he chose to make a new topic about the definition of the word debate versus the definition of the word discussion. But that's not the worst thing in the world, a little accuracy can go a long way to promote understanding. What really gets to me is the blatant mis-use of words and language. If you don't understand a word, don't use it. If you don't understand a word used in someone else's post...look it up (dictionary.com) before you comment on it. Honestly, how can we ever expect to agree on the definition of things that are not clearly defined if we can't even use the resources at our disposal as a "common starting point" for the things that are clearly defined?

I'm overcome by the silliness of the prospect at the moment, so I'm stopping here.

Alluvius, that's the "beauty" of free speech. I get where you're coming from, I do. Sometimes the purpose of a forum thread gets lost in BS of members arguing who's right and wrong, or simply just posting the same opinions over and over until the forum/thread seems watered down. Point is, the TOTJO needs members like yourself who have strong, intelligent opinions. I made the mistake of leaving for all the wrong reasons, and in the process missed out on alot. There are quite a few great minds here, granted, there are times when it seems the forums are filled with the same crap on a regular basis, try and look past it.

If you sit in a room full of people, and conduct a seminar, you are the speaker, and people are listening, right?

Except for the little comments between people that you cant hear...

IF you are in a smaller group of friends, and you are telling a story, one of your friends will occasionally interrupt your story to make a point, and yet you continue on, telling your story...

Same here, except there are so many strangers to join us...

Dont let the seemingly insuffiecent depth of a conversation bother you, or that things can go off track, "Brin 'er back to point pilot"...

The internet is that roomful of strangers reading our words, and since they cant whisper, they post their words... lol...

I "try" to whisper by thanking other members posts, especially if they have said something I may have said myself. (Doesn't always work out that way though, lol)

Don't worry Zenchi (and whoever else might be concerned), I'm not leaving. I have simply come to an understanding I did not previously hold about the nature of "communication" on the interwebz...hence the title of the thread.

New info realized, contemplated, and assimilated...we now return you to your regularly scheduled progam.