What is life ?

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06 Feb 2020 00:21 - 06 Feb 2020 00:23 #349488 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic What is life ?

Fyxe wrote: Things that respond to environment because of the environment conditions are alive. Chemicals respond as reactions not responses, meaning they have no self interest in the reaction. Plants will turn leaves to the sun and go dormant in the cold. A chemical could care less because they are incapable of caring


What part if the plant cares though? Is it a part that commands the leaves to turn and if so what part is that, or do the leaves do it automatically in response to the environment and if do is that not a reaction to the environment.?

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Last edit: 06 Feb 2020 00:23 by Adder.

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06 Feb 2020 01:38 #349493 by Fyxe
Replied by Fyxe on topic What is life ?

Adder wrote:

Fyxe wrote: Things that respond to environment because of the environment conditions are alive. Chemicals respond as reactions not responses, meaning they have no self interest in the reaction. Plants will turn leaves to the sun and go dormant in the cold. A chemical could care less because they are incapable of caring


What part if the plant cares though? Is it a part that commands the leaves to turn and if so what part is that, or do the leaves do it automatically in response to the environment and if do is that not a reaction to the environment.?



No it's a response to the environment because they are alive. Its self preservation. What does it matter what part does this, the plant is aware, that's all that matters.

A true teacher would never tell you what to do. But he would give you the knowledge with which you could decide what would be best for you to do
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06 Feb 2020 05:29 #349508 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic What is life ?

Fyxe wrote:

Adder wrote:

Fyxe wrote: Things that respond to environment because of the environment conditions are alive. Chemicals respond as reactions not responses, meaning they have no self interest in the reaction. Plants will turn leaves to the sun and go dormant in the cold. A chemical could care less because they are incapable of caring


What part if the plant cares though? Is it a part that commands the leaves to turn and if so what part is that, or do the leaves do it automatically in response to the environment and if do is that not a reaction to the environment.?



No it's a response to the environment because they are alive. Its self preservation. What does it matter what part does this, the plant is aware, that's all that matters.


Matter? I think it's what the thread is, to distinguish appearance of life from action of the living ie what is and what isn't.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu

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06 Feb 2020 06:18 #349511 by Malicious
Replied by Malicious on topic What is life ?
Okay so from what I get , we are now debating if non organic life exists , well as far as we know no it doesn't . But that doesn't mean it could or we haven't discovered it but looked over it .



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06 Feb 2020 06:20 - 06 Feb 2020 06:38 #349513 by Alexandre Orion
Replied by Alexandre Orion on topic What is life ?


Let's go back to this notion of "caring." Actually, the plant turning itself toward the sun is indeed a form of caring. Life being self-organising, self-preserving, self-replicating - regardless of the degree of conscious attention - does "care." Instinct is the basis of "care" (Heidegger referred to this as Sorge). The more developed the consciousness, which increases in capacity according to how much one can consciously attend (attention), the more Care is exhibited, having begun in-hibited then brought forth by the dynamic of the environment in which it is not a "part" but an module therein.

Adder, there is no "part" of the plant that cares, the plant in its wholeness does, and Fyxe, the self-preservation that motivates that care is as innate to us (the animal that denies its own animality) to viruses and tardigrades. "Care" is not merely deciding what is important to us, indeed much of what is called care is not. What is the difference between a parent who does not know how to express love toward her/his children, giving them money or gifts instead and the billionaire who eases his/her conscience by giving a tenth or so of a percent of her/his fortune to a charity to aid the underprivileged (usually in an identity-confirming media display) ? There is "care" there, but what is it care for ? What might be the undercurrent of Sorge ?

All things considered, you're all getting closer to understanding what Life is about without having to actually "define" it ... That, my friends, cannot be done. B)

Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme.
~ Henri Bergson
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06 Feb 2020 06:27 #349514 by CaesarEJW
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"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
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06 Feb 2020 06:31 - 06 Feb 2020 06:31 #349515 by CaesarEJW
Replied by CaesarEJW on topic What is life ?
"The meaning of life is to be alive - it is so obvious and simple. Yet everyone rushes around in a panic - as if we need to achieve something beyond ourselves."

Occam's razor, my friends. The simplest explanation tends to be the better explanation.
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06 Feb 2020 09:17 - 06 Feb 2020 09:18 #349533 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic What is life ?

Alexandre Orion wrote:
Adder, there is no "part" of the plant that cares, the plant in its wholeness does,


That question was in regards to being aware. The whole plant would not be aware its leaves are turning and indeed the leaves wouldn't be aware!? Because it might react to its own actions? Then what is the nature of that reaction.... by what mechanism are it's parts or whole aware! It depends on what is being meant by aware, hence the question. We can call it a plant and say its acting aware and I'm aware of that, saying otherwise seems to be deliberately sloppy semantics? And I'm not sure about caring either... but anthromorophising similar actions is a beneficial exercise to broaden one's perception and perspective on existence! Instinct are conscious like models deriving in the subconscious seemingly but if we're talking about life with consciousness then that is different from plants... unless their is a view or belief otherwise, hence the question. :dry:

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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06 Feb 2020 15:51 #349540 by Alexandre Orion
Replied by Alexandre Orion on topic What is life ?
But, Adder, I wasn't saying that the plant "thinks about" turning its leaves. But yes, there is a certain form of awareness there : the plant "knows" what it needs and how to get it just like a newborn knows how to suckle. It isn't anthropomorphising, for indeed there is awareness - an instinctual perception of the environment, even if it is pre-reflexive.

There is awareness at every level of the biosphere. Trees defend themselves and others - even of different species. They can be selfish too. They communicate with one another. Indeed, entire forests communicate with one another. And "care" does not need be a consciously thought about 'cause'. That would be anthropomorphising.

Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme.
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06 Feb 2020 15:59 #349541 by Alexandre Orion
Replied by Alexandre Orion on topic What is life ?
... as an afterthought :

This would be a good time, and good for this topic, to consult Thomas Nagel's 1974 article What is it Like to be a Bat ?...

It's a pretty easy article to find, but if not, contact me and I can beam it to you. I have it on a memory stick somewhere... :cheer:

Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme.
~ Henri Bergson
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