Did Epstein kill himself?

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24 Nov 2019 03:51 #346033 by Uzima Moto
Who is aware of the situation or the meme it's inspired? I wanted to get some of the community's take on this..

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem
By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty.
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24 Nov 2019 04:01 #346036 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic Did Epstein kill himself?
Here's the most recent and arguably most basic primer: apnews.com/4ff27f28f32d446795b65ac7dd8cc4ac
The meme is its own thing at this point

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TM: Carlos Martinez
ὁ δὲ ἀμυχηδόν νεξέταστος βίος γίγνομαι βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ

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24 Nov 2019 05:08 - 24 Nov 2019 05:27 #346040 by OB1Shinobi
I dont know or care about memes but Epstein was murdered.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down in order to feel it’s warmth.
-supposedly an African proverb.
Last edit: 24 Nov 2019 05:27 by OB1Shinobi.

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24 Nov 2019 07:03 #346044 by JamesSand
Replied by JamesSand on topic Did Epstein kill himself?
More interesting than any wild speculation we might be able to come with regarding the specifics of this situation is the ethical discussion it might generate -

Should you be allowed to kill yourself to escape "justice" ?

If not, and if someone is awaiting justice (or investigation, or both) what responsibilities does "the state" have to ensure their health and wellbeing until such events are concluded?

Have "the people" been cheated justice in this instance?

It is apparently a quirk of the law that accusations against the dead can't be followed up, so apparently the state/people can't seek reparations for the unproven crimes from his estate? - Does anyone have any thoughts about how this measures against various ethical models?

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24 Nov 2019 09:06 #346051 by Alexandre Orion
I haven't read the Guardian's article on the subject, but Akkarin has done and which we were just discussing only moments ago...

There are a few themes really worth considering here, although none of them particularly easy :

It's an curious notion, the idea of legislating against suicide, which can be acquainted to basically any other murder of a 'physical' person (as opposed to a 'moral' person, such as a corporation). This appears, at least to me (what the hell would I know ?), sustainable in that it is wilfully and prematurely ending a human life.

It seems to me that "attempted suicide" was indeed illegal some time ago, although that may have been since revised. The basis of such a law is the question of 'self ownership', which has occupied moral philosophers as well as mystics for centuries. It is too large and too complex a subject for us to discuss here. The only thing we could discuss - please do not "debate" - is the transcription/transition of moral to ethics into an enforceable jurisprudence.

In the case of a suicide to escape the ramifications of culpability one knows a priori to carry, there are already laws against justice evasion which could apply, but should the suicide be successful, any punitive action against the physical person thus charged would be a moot point ; the case could and probably ought to be made that the estate of said person be held responsible for indemnities to the victims of the crime. It is a worthy question to ponder, but unfortunately one that requires a staggering amount of premises to turn into indubitable evidence. This is but one reason for which this is a herculean task for law-makers.

There are even bigger fish to try to fry herein, those being the considerations of cause(s) and of relative sufferings. We really ought to be prudent when determining whom deserves what sort of treatment, for we cannot make individuals wholly responsible for their misdeeds, considering that their misdeeds are probably wrought by their very deep and unnoticed suffering - largely due to apparent success and life of abundance (sic). We cannot know what is going on in the existential worlds that are Others (Autrui, cf. Levinas, 1961).

The question of cause in determining guilt has not been given nearly enough attention. Indeed, apart from Georges Vedel's thesis from 1936, I cannot think of any other major work that tries to tackle it.

At any rate, law in and of itself (its ontology is a labyrinthine, so let's get a really large bobine of thread) cannot determine our practice of ethics ; our ethics need to determine our laws. And we need both Sense and Sensibility to do this...

"Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme."
~ Henri Bergson
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24 Nov 2019 14:03 #346059 by OB1Shinobi

JamesSand wrote: Have "the people" been cheated justice in this instance?


Definitely.... maybe, lol. Its quite possible that he would have implicated other people, many of whom are prominent figures in business and politics.

It is apparently a quirk of the law that accusations against the dead can't be followed up, so apparently the state/people can't seek reparations for the unproven crimes from his estate? - Does anyone have any thoughts about how this measures against various ethical models?


I dont know how it usually works but this comment got me curious and apparently, in this particular case, investigations will continue.
www.nytimes.com/2019/08/11/nyregion/jeff...archResultPosition=1

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down in order to feel it’s warmth.
-supposedly an African proverb.

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24 Nov 2019 17:23 #346064 by Carlos.Martinez3
I’m aware of the “Epstein didn’t kill himself” thing.

It didn’t sway me either way today - ima gunna try and do something worth passing. (Or just veg with the fam. Who knows- I got other things to do than speak of those in such situations. Think we will get a book at the library today. Maybe do a good lunch spread. It’s nice and cool - maybe come hot chocolate with one big marshmallow or maybe the colored ones. Today will not waisted.

I grew up on the streets of San Antonio Tx- people get locked up all the time and people die way to often incarcerated. If you like a better subject - find out what’s the responsibility’s of the jails and prisons when some one dies in their care. I know a family that was given one days notice for one hour to pick up the it loved one after a death or they would be burnt and sorted that day. True story.
There are much more interesting things to think about for me rather than some one getting killed for something he did outside - that’s prison.
Ain’t no one special there.

I believe in the inherent worth of all- but sometimes I ain’t in control of the beast of life and for some it’s a beast. Wish I was but I ain’t. Other people are some times and that’s the thing for me - do I dwell on it or ... do I make a cup of coco... and spend time with the family... hmmmm
Thanks for today’s and this idea.

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