Following the Myth

The IP team is supposed to understand how people take ideas away from the IP, so could you walk me through your thought process on how Campbell (I'm assuming since that's the lesson in your journal) lead you to believe an Evangelical, aescetic lifestyle is the way to go?

Fyxe wrote: Well the fact that they consider Jesus real is a mistake like I said. They got poetry and real life mixed up.

I'm a little concerned that you're getting poetry and real life mixed up yourself Fyxe.

You yourself talk about the Jedi from the films as if they really do exist:

Fyxe wrote: I dont think Jedi will come back[...]

For me it means the teachings of the Jedi. The real teachings of the Jedi, not the made up ones.

Suggesting that the Jedi may or may not come back implies that you believe they were here to begin with. They weren't. As for the 'real teachings of the Jedi', the Jedi in the films aren't real, ALL of their teaching are 'made up ones' :laugh:

Fyxe wrote: and whats more, you are supposed to be like some sort of apprentice or something right? like do you have a trainer? did you go through these lessons of IP? this comes from those very teachings. Why dont you know these things?

Like Rex, I too am curious as to how you arrived at these beliefs based on the Campbell videos?

If I may, I'd like to advise that you don't let your beliefs of what Jediism 'should be' become too static this early on in your path. It is worth noting that you're only on the first lesson of the IP at the minute. Perhaps you're views will change as you progress through the rest of the IP? Mine certainly did.

Fyxe wrote: no body ever said anything about homeless??

none of these poeple were...

https://www.jonasclark.com/americas-greatest-tent-preachers/

Nope, I get it. I know exactly what you're talking about because I was raised a denomination that used to have what we called "tent meetings" all the time. It's actually pretty simple and it is part of what increased its membership dramatically. You just pitch a tent in a park or whatever, pass out flyers in the area, and people come to hear the message. It's very simple. I don't know if we're organized enough to actually do something like that but I can't call it a bad idea. The tents we used to use were mostly just rented for a week or two. But you don't have to go so big and there's a lot of options today that didn't exist awhile back which helps to bring down costs.

rabbis were basically traveling teachers so its not far off the same concept.

I just think that in a way we're acting like the "new (religious) kid on the block" and we're concerned with how the others will look at us and how much we look like them. Sometimes you just have to step fully into your path because outside influence causes half-stepping.

Brick wrote: You yourself talk about the Jedi from the films as if they really do exist:

No... come on, guys. Seriously? The title of the thread is "Following the Myth". I don't think the OP is remotely saying the Jedi are real, but rather citing the mythical Jedi from the Films as being the "genuine article" vs what what we are attempting to emulate. This is not to denigrate anyone but rather to give honor to the source material from which we are (and should) draw ideas and inspiration.

And I think some of us are just more honest about it. Personally, I'm influenced by Yoda as much as the apostle Paul. It doesn't really even matter if either of them were real or not. It just doesn't. It's about their perspective which I can judge independently of their credibility. Some people look at you and who you are before listening to what you have to say. I think that's wrong. I'm pretty sure Yeshua/Jesus was a real person but he was made into a myth and did not do all the things people claim he did. Yoda may not be a real person but he was likely based on one. Luke wasn't a real person but was likely inspired by one. See where I'm going? Many myths were inspired by real people and events but the whole story or even the story itself isn't true. But the story itself is just a vehicle for information and wisdom, not to be taken literally. And that IS something I took away from JC (Joseph Campbell).

So when it comes to the teachings of the Jedi, they exist within the realm of the lore or myth. If a shaman tells a story about father sky and mother Earth and uses these allegorical characters to teach parables, it doesn't make the parables any less real. Jesus told stories too but the teachings were real. He simply expressed them through story telling because it was easier for people to understand and they could get emotionally or ideologically invested in it. I think its simply a teaching tool. And art often uses fiction to teach real lessons. It's not meant to take literally but its not meant to discard or discount the lessons either just because it has aliens or killer robots or someone choosing between a red pill and a blue pill. All these things were based on something real. And we use that real source as a source of legitimacy and credibility to support Jediism as more than just "star wars nerdology". So since that is true, it doesn't get negated when you teach lessons using fictional characters. It doesn't lose value when you teach it in parable form. If anything it may gain value; the value of the story itself as it blends all of these ideas together. I can talk about all the positive values of the Jedi but I 100% think it loses value without contrasting it to the Sith. For me at least, I think it is the middle where these two sides clash and collide where we learn the most about each side and can judge their value and substance.

Thank you Zealot, yes that is what I mean. Why not follow the myth of the Jedi as it was written and if source material like from Joeseph campbell is relevant well we should listen to him and try to live as he describes in embracing the myth!

Rex is mean so I will not respond to him so this next part is for Brick. i am not crazy so please dont think that. I am committed. I wonder if you have been doing this so long you have lost your desire for it? In any case what Joseph says is that societies today are moving so fast that they have lost the ability to listen to and learn from their myths. Stuff gets misinterperted like christians have done, adding in all sorts of irrelevant stuff and redefining terms and making things to complicated by trying to force everybody to think like you. And then it gets all messed up and we lose site of the message. He says to keep our myths pure and take them where we can so that we can actually live like we are supposed to live. Old myths are not for us but new ones can be. When you mix all sorts of stuff up your morals get all messed up and just look at how bad the christians are! they hate everybody and are not accepting of others except themselves and they have all these crazy ideas about God.

Thats not for me. I want a pure myth to live by like my people before me did. The last video I watched was about story tellers and how the animals were our friends and showed us great things. And because we lived like the animals did we knew who we were and how to behave. That doesnt happen any more today and we have like a million genders now because no one knows how to be a man or a woman amymore! I think the Jedi myth can show us this again. a lifetime of dedication to a view of life that is pure. I want a pure Jedi life and I think its the most important thing to get out there and show that to everybody so they can know too!

Nope, I get it. I know exactly what you're talking about because I was raised a denomination that used to have what we called "tent meetings" all the time. It's actually pretty simple and it is part of what increased its membership dramatically. You just pitch a tent in a park or whatever, pass out flyers in the area, and people come to hear the message. It's very simple. I don't know if we're organized enough to actually do something like that but I can't call it a bad idea.

That's our main method of getting new memberships for the fencing club....

The hard part is making sure the local council knows the lunatics with swords in the park are not up to mischief....

Oh, as for the main thrust of this thread - May I suggest a "primer" in philosophies? Jediism is not exactly a path itself, but an understanding of paths.

If you head off and read the Tao Te Ching, (or the Tao of Pooh, if you prefer) The Art of War, the Book of Five Rings, something more fun like the 1st Earth Battalion Operations Field Manual, I like The Republic and The Satanic Bible and Beyond Good and Evil but I'm a little "Western" in my Jediism)

I have not read it, but some like "Rules for a Knight" as a modern take...

My intent is not to be a "gatekeeper" as such, but I suppose to assist in introducing why your comments may not be resonating as well as you'd hope with your audience - many here have delved into numerous philosophies as part of their Jedi Journey, and while it may not have made them "wiser" as such, it has made them more "intellectual" in their consideration of things.

I'm not sure how to phrase this...I think the word is somewhere near "Jargon" - in a group of people (lets call them peers for lack of a better word) talking about a matter of common interest, there is an assumed level of background knowledge and understanding.

I'm not saying you have to have that, you can do your path however, but you might find you are understood better by the people you are trying to communicate with if you share the same "foundation" thinking (which is more or less what the IP is trying to achieve)

But I thought the foundation was understood? Isnt it Star Wars mythology?

No, Star wars is the veneer, the latest coat of paint if you will, the sizzle of the sausage.

You have discovered it, and hopefully by the end of this conversation you will ask the questions..

What is a Jedi?

Okay, but Why?

Okay, but Why?

Okay, but Why?

and that will lead you down a path (not necessarily a "Right" path, but hey)

dig through the Myth find out why a Jedi is a Taoist, why a Jedi is a Samurai, why a Jedi is a Knight, why a Jedi is an Ubermensch.....

and then you might see that Star Wars is not any special "Pure" form of Jediism, but part of it, a reflection of it perhaps?

Since I'm at a coffee shop staring at a street - Mazdas are Cars, but Cars are not Mazdas...

every time you see a Mazda you are seeing a car....but nothing about it being a Mazda is it's carness

(Mazda is just a brand of car, in case that metaphor is going absolutely no where)

ANYWAY - Do the IP, if at any stage it's not for you, then godspeed, but I feel many of your questions would be answered there, and my old-as-the-internet trollbells are jingling just a tad, so I don't know how much further I'll go with explaining it (keeping in mind any explanations are mine only, I'm just some guy in a coffee shop, and lack any titles, robes, or jaunty hats to show my authority)

I forgot to mention - much of the "recommended reading" for those on a Jedi Path can be found at

https://templeofthejediorder.org/library

The whole thing isn't exactly mandatory study, but a selection of works found useful by TotJO Jedi for their path, (and sufficiently old as to not require much in the way of expenditure - if you want more contemporary writings, you may have to go into a book shop and hand over some hard-earned)

Fyxe wrote: ...did you go through these lessons of IP? this comes from those very teachings. Why dont you know these things?

Fyxe wrote: But I thought the foundation was understood? Isnt it Star Wars mythology?

'He who thinks he knows, doesn't know. He who knows that he doesn't know, knows.' - Joseph Campbell

ZealotX wrote:

Brick wrote: You yourself talk about the Jedi from the films as if they really do exist:

No... come on, guys. Seriously? The title of the thread is "Following the Myth". I don't think the OP is remotely saying the Jedi are real, but rather citing the mythical Jedi from the Films as being the "genuine article" vs what what we are attempting to emulate. This is not to denigrate anyone but rather to give honor to the source material from which we are (and should) draw ideas and inspiration.

I get that ZealotX. It was some of the things Fyxe has said since their OP that made me think it prudent to remind them that, at the end of the day, we are just talking about a bunch of film characters.

But we're not trying emulate the Jedi of the films? We're creating our own thing, not based on the Jedi, but based on the same sourse material that inspired the Jedi of the films. It literally says this on our homepage:

'Jedi at this site are not the same as those portrayed within the Star Wars franchise. Star Wars Jedi are fictional characters that exist within a literary and cinematic UNIVERSE.

[...]

Jediism does not base its focus on myth and fiction but on the real life issues and philosophies that are at the source of myth'.

ZealotX wrote: And I think some of us are just more honest about it. Personally, I'm influenced by Yoda as much as the apostle Paul. It doesn't really even matter if either of them were real or not. It just doesn't. It's about their perspective which I can judge independently of their credibility.

I fully support your viewpoint here Zealot, as I said earlier:

'...that is not to say that we can't learn anything from the story of Star Wars (particularly the original trilogy), especially when we relate Luke's 'Hero's Journey' to that of our own path and the lesson inferred with that.'

I fully grasp' following the myth' in that regard. But some of the other comments Fyxe has made about wanting to live with other Jedi in a temple/tent, and training with lightsabers and try to move things with their mind sound more like role play to me.

Roleplay to you is real life to me. Just like real life to you is roleplay for non jedi.

Besides that the jedi were not inspired by anything, they arent real, remember? Lucas was inspired in his writings. Do you worship him now? If you are trying to distance yourself from that or movie jedi then why the heck to you call yourself JEDI!!? that makes about as much sense as the kettle calling the pot black.

Fyxe wrote: Roleplay to you is real life to me. Just like real life to you is roleplay for non jedi.

Besides that the jedi were not inspired by anything, they arent real, remember? Lucas was inspired in his writings. Do you worship him now? If you are trying to distance yourself from that or movie jedi then why the heck to you call yourself JEDI!!? that makes about as much sense as the kettle calling the pot black.

When you say things like "roleplay is real", that sort of thing is why some here are dubious of your intentions or sincerity, because at face value it sounds mad. I'm not going to say that you should fret what others think, but you should think carefully on statements like this. If you can't handle people saying you sound crazy, maybe avoid saying things that invite the question of your ability to distinguish between reality and fiction?

Your question/s has been answered several times over, by several people, very clearly, and patiently. The answers are the answers, whether you like them, or not. If you still don't understand the answers, it should at least be considered if that's someone else's failing to express them, or your own, for not knowing enough to understand them.

It's becoming increasingly clear that you don't know very much about a number of things you are talking about (it is a widely known fact that to create the image of the Jedi, originally, George Lucas drew heavy inspiration from romanticized imagery of Samurai and Wild West stories. That inspiration bit is what people are talking about, so when you claim "the Jedi weren't inspired by anything", it only hurts your position and arguments). Again, you need to rethink the conversations you start if you're going to be so defensive about the answers.

Might I add, it takes a certain amount of nerve to come into a community, starting a conversation from a position of ignorance (why would you pose it as a question, otherwise?) only to lecture the community on what it genuinely knows better than you, particularly about itself.

No one is telling you that you can't do this, nobody is withholding your assumption of the mantle of "Jedi", but if you're going to express your ideas and beliefs, you do need to thicken your skin against criticism (and perhaps implement greater tolerance for the differing interpretations within Jediism), especially if you want to seek a purist lifestyle in a world that isn't going to understand that your practice and interpretation does coming from a place of sincerity and not just "fandom gone awry".

You're attitude is far too dogmatic, and you're awfully sensitive to being judged or disagreed with, I do recommend an adjustment on these matters, lest it spoil your overall experience and progress.

OMG I never said role play was real or that I didnt understand answers, just never mind!

I'm torn between

A. Just some dillhole from the internet

and

B. The nature of Jediism isn't accessible for some reason.

This next question might seem poor for whatever reasons any number of people can think of, but I've got to start somewhere with my "bracketing" of what is going wrong with this communication, and (like it or lump it) it's often a semi-reliable starting point in framing things (not necessarily terribly accurate, but accurate enough often enough to be useful)

How old are you? (we can bracket further later, if it seems necessary to find the "ground" needed to start working together on the subject we are trying to mutually understand)

Fyxe wrote: OMG I never said role play was real...

Dude, it's your very last post before this. It's not even on a different page...

Fyxe wrote: Roleplay to you is real life to me.

Fyxe wrote: Roleplay to you is real life to me. Just like real life to you is roleplay for non jedi.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

As for the 'non-jedi' label it would appear you've thrown in my direction: I'm not that bothered by how others choose to label me, so it's not really an issue here.

But, a word of advise, incase you do come across people who are bothered by such things: coming into this community for the first time and telling established members that they are not what they purport to be, purely because they don't meet your definition, probably isn't the best introduction you could make.

Fyxe wrote: Besides that the jedi were not inspired by anything, they arent real, remember? Lucas was inspired in his writings.

You are correct. I misspoke. I meant that we are inspired by (and a good chunk of the IP consists of) the source material that inspired Lucas when he was creating the Jedi.

Fyxe wrote: Do you worship him now?

No, we don't. In fact, I'm pretty sure there used to be a clear statement on the homepage saying that 'we do not worship George Lucas', but I can't seem to find it :dry:

Fyxe wrote: If you are trying to distance yourself from that or movie jedi then why the heck to you call yourself JEDI!!? that makes about as much sense as the kettle calling the pot black.

Because we're inspired by the same source materials. Though I see your point. I've made the same argument myself a couple of times. It's one of the reasons I'm not that fussed about labels (I find that half the time they confuse just as much as they clarify). I guess the word 'Jedi' makes it more accessible to the general public?

Anyway, I suggest you read the FAQ, particularly the section entitled 'What is TotJO'. I've pasted a notable paragraph below:

TotJO wrote: Here are some things TotJO is not: we are not a role-playing site, we do not teach mystical powers or how to build lightsabers, we are not a dedicated Star Wars fan site, we are not affiliated with George Lucas or Disney and we are not for people who just want to wear a badge reading "I'm a Jedi".

Brick wrote:

Fyxe wrote: Roleplay to you is real life to me. Just like real life to you is roleplay for non jedi.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

As for the 'non-jedi' label it would appear you've thrown in my direction: I'm not that bothered by how others choose to label me, so it's not really an issue here.

But, a word of advise, incase you do come across people who are bothered by such things: coming into this community for the first time and telling established members that they are not what they purport to be, purely because they don't meet your definition, probably isn't the best introduction you could make.

Fyxe wrote: Besides that the jedi were not inspired by anything, they arent real, remember? Lucas was inspired in his writings.

You are correct. I misspoke. I meant that we are inspired by (and a good chunk of the IP consists of) the source material that inspired Lucas when he was creating the Jedi.

Fyxe wrote: Do you worship him now?

No, we don't. In fact, I'm pretty sure there used to be a clear statement on the homepage saying that 'we do not worship George Lucas', but I can't seem to find it :dry:

Fyxe wrote: If you are trying to distance yourself from that or movie jedi then why the heck to you call yourself JEDI!!? that makes about as much sense as the kettle calling the pot black.

Because we're inspired by the same source materials. Though I see your point. I've made the same argument myself a couple of times. It's one of the reasons I'm not that fussed about labels (I find that half the time they confuse just as much as they clarify). I guess the word 'Jedi' makes it more accessible to the general public?

Anyway, I suggest you read the FAQ, particularly the section entitled 'What is TotJO'. I've pasted a notable paragraph below:

TotJO wrote: Here are some things TotJO is not: we are not a role-playing site, we do not teach mystical powers or how to build lightsabers, we are not a dedicated Star Wars fan site, we are not affiliated with George Lucas or Disney and we are not for people who just want to wear a badge reading "I'm a Jedi".

Kudos, you handled that much better than I did -_-

I've been keeping an eye on this thread for a while now, and though I haven't read the entire thing, I think I understand what Fyxe is getting at.

It would seem that this site has lost sight of its roots. Yes, I understand that Lucas got his inspiration from Joseph Campbell and that Star Wars is fictional, but the Jedi of film used to serve as inspiration. The characters and story of Star Wars are worth consideration because they are based on mythology, but it seems that people here tend to skip over Star Wars, and go to the source of the myth.

There's an old saying that is applicable here: A picture is worth a thousand words. We can talk and talk and talk about concepts, have discussions that seem to go nowhere, but sometimes just being shown what a Jedi is has more value than the conversations we could have about them. That isn't to say we shouldn't talk about the fictional Jedi or Star Wars, as their existence is the reason we're all here, but I haven't seen much brought up about the fiction since I became a member.