Is the Dark Side Stronger?

More
02 Sep 2019 22:41 - 02 Sep 2019 22:43 #343093 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Brick wrote: Firstly I'll start with a slight disclaimer: I don't believe supernatural qualities or abilities.

I agree that there are a lot of those claims here, but I disagree that's exclusive to the 'light' side. Pretty much every self described 'sith' I've had discussions with has claimed some sort of supernatural ability. Now, they might have been trolling, but I think it unlikely in every case.

I also like to think I'm pretty reasonable, objective, and a lover of truth and facts. But I very much consider myself a Jedi.

The only thing I can think of that may support your argument, and is that 'Sith' tend to care less about people's 'feelings' and so are therefore more likely to demand to proof/logical reasoning to support arguments made.

I'd note that you contradict yourself somewhat when you say that 'self improvement is a lie' and then say that is in fact possible to change through hard work. Also, for clarity, we don't ask anyone here to pretend 'to be something they're not after reading a book'.


Well you just had a discussion with a Sith that does not claim supernatural ability so I would say you are wrong there that every sith you have spoken to claims that. I believe that any true path of the Sith will arrive at that conclusion eventually. Short of that they are just inexperienced in the path or play acting. Contrary to your assertion of Sith claims I have encountered no Sith mature in their path that also claims supernatural ability.

And you are correct, Sith are very confrontational, or may I say blunt, in their pursuits and demanding of others claims that are not supported by evidence. And I have not contradicted myself. But I do apologize if I was not clear in my statement. What I mean to say is that self improvement for the sake of self improvement is a lie. Jedi seem to put a priority on self improvement as a primary pursuit. It is the reason this place is so full of "lessons" and "courses" and mentors are the onle means to achieve knighthood. There is this false belief that one must learn from these sources in order to be called worthy. Sith do not believe this. They believe that the individual and that individuals pursuits are a primary goal. Focus is on the achievement of life valuable objectives and the idea of self improvement is simply a consequence of that pursuit. i.e. we dont wast time making "utility belts" and other such nonsense. :P

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
Last edit: 02 Sep 2019 22:43 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Sep 2019 23:00 - 02 Sep 2019 23:10 #343095 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic Is the Dark Side Stronger?

There is this false belief that one must learn from these sources in order to be called worthy. Sith do not believe this. They believe that the individual and that individuals pursuits are a primary goal. Focus is on the achievement of life valuable objectives and the idea of self improvement is simply a consequence of that pursuit. i.e. we dont wast time making "utility belts" and other such nonsense.


I do believe you have just described this false belief as yours. I, nor anyone I've interacted with here holds this belief. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of how this works. Iddon't wish to derail this anymore to explain, my point is that these kinds of misunderstandings lead to strawman assumptions, especially when it's convenient to support one's own biased view of their own path being superior to others'.

Fun fact: The flat earth movement is perpetuated by this same phenomenon.

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
Last edit: 02 Sep 2019 23:10 by Proteus.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos, Brick

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
02 Sep 2019 23:18 #343097 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic Is the Dark Side Stronger?

VixensVengeance wrote:

Brick wrote: What I mean to say is that self improvement for the sake of self improvement is a lie. Jedi seem to put a priority on self improvement as a primary pursuit. It is the reason this place is so full of "lessons" and "courses" and mentors are the only means to achieve knighthood. There is this false belief that one must learn from these sources in order to be called worthy. Sith do not believe this. They believe that the individual and that individuals pursuits are a primary goal. Focus is on the achievement of life valuable objectives and the idea of self improvement is simply a consequence of that pursuit. i.e. we don't wast time making "utility belts" and other such nonsense. :P


I think this is an interesting things to consider and a thing in "Sith beliefs" that over lap with "Jedi beliefs". Now, I think you 100% right there is no self improvement for the sake of self improvement. There is always a bigger. No matter if it's success of individual pursuits or an ideal of helping people, there is that drive. I actually agree with the pursuit of individual goals, if you want to help people your things need to be in order first. I see them as the same thing, maybe Jedi approach people's feelings more and hence why there is talk of self growth for the sake of self growth, perhaps that is who ever they are talking to needs at the moment. Some Jedi and Sith too help people with some pretty deep things as they form relationship (2 paths to the same thing), rank aside (it is more a procedural and organizational thing), because I have heard great things from Masters and guests the same. The "utility belt" is just a reference in different ways you know how to talk to people and acknowledging that.

I honestly think there is a lot of over lap between the two but I may be incorrect in how I personally interpret it. Do you agree with any of that?

Much Love, Peace and Respect,
Kobos


Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

TM:JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
The following user(s) said Thank You: Brick

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Sep 2019 00:01 #343101 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Proteus wrote:

There is this false belief that one must learn from these sources in order to be called worthy. Sith do not believe this. They believe that the individual and that individuals pursuits are a primary goal. Focus is on the achievement of life valuable objectives and the idea of self improvement is simply a consequence of that pursuit. i.e. we dont wast time making "utility belts" and other such nonsense.


I do believe you have just described this false belief as yours. I, nor anyone I've interacted with here holds this belief. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of how this works. Iddon't wish to derail this anymore to explain, my point is that these kinds of misunderstandings lead to strawman assumptions, especially when it's convenient to support one's own biased view of their own path being superior to others'.

Fun fact: The flat earth movement is perpetuated by this same phenomenon.


Lol well of course you do not see it as a false belief, you are a jedi knight here right?

Are you required to complete "training" here under your specific curriculum in order to be called knight and thus have more priveledge here and be acknowledged as a "leader"? Everyone follows the exact same path, ip and the ap and then those are judged by a self appointed elite few? If this is not the case then please correct me.

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos, Brick

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Sep 2019 00:16 #343102 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic Is the Dark Side Stronger?
It is rather common for immature beginner Sith to cling to images of witchcraft, goth culture and to fetishize pain and aggressiveness. The more mature Sith I’ve met discard these props and fallacies.

Similarly, many newcomer immature Jedi cling to images of knights slaying dragons, white witchcraft, and fetishize self-improvement and amicable traits. But the more mature Jedi also have discarded these props and fallacies.

So my question then is: how are (mature) Jedi and Sith different from each other?

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Step aggressively toward your fear. - Jocko Willink

TM: Bruno Moreira (Kyber) | Public Journal
The following user(s) said Thank You: Carlos.Martinez3, Kobos, Brick, VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Sep 2019 01:51 #343106 by Zephyrus
Replied by Zephyrus on topic Is the Dark Side Stronger?
Is the Dark Side stronger?

A fictional question requires a fictional response. You know, as well as I do, that the Dark Side is not real in the Star Wars sense. So, I'm curious as to why you're asking that specific question. Maybe you mean the parallel of what the Dark Side is in non-fictional life?

In the fiction, it is clear that the Dark Side is a quick path to strength. Sith, for example, use their anger and passion to fuel their connection to the Force. They bend it to their will. This does produce power quickly, but at the cost of their souls. Often, they lose their sense of compassion and empathy (what we deem as Humanity). This seductive path essentially turns most Sith into psychopaths hellbent on achieving without any sense of ethics or restraint.

But, this is not how the real world works. If you want an answer to the real world Dark Side, then you have to remove the fictional binds.

You will, however, arrive at a similar conclusion via the same method. If we remove a supernatural Force element from the question, you are left with people's ambitions and ethics. I guess you might ask: if the Sith in Star Wars didn't have the Force, would their methods be more effective than those who refused to give into such beliefs? In other words, is ambition plus a lack of empathy stronger than whatever the Light side equivalent is?

Plenty of people have ambitions and a lack of empathy. Many celebrities probably fit the bill. A good number of politicians do as well.

It is fairly effective. To the dismay of many who serve the Light, the dark tend to amass influence and conquer. In fact, it's SO common throughout history that I would guess that the "Light" side is more of a perversion of humanity than the other way around. The drive to be the best is hardwired in us. Sure, some of us manage to beat it out of us... but to what end? Because we're scared we'll lose? Who knows, really?

In any case... I'm not sure if I really believe any of this. But, I wanted to provide a perspective that wasn't boring. hahaha.

As for Manu, how are mature Jedi and Sith different from each other?
You'll find that each Force Realist is as similar and different as there are numbers of them.

The Black Wizard ~ Rainbow Chaos Magick ~ Thelemite
The following user(s) said Thank You: Manu, Kobos, Mira

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Sep 2019 05:26 #343118 by Brick
Replied by Brick on topic Is the Dark Side Stronger?

VixensVengeance wrote: Are you required to complete "training" here under your specific curriculum in order to be called knight and thus have more priveledge here and be acknowledged as a "leader"? Everyone follows the exact same path, ip and the ap and then those are judged by a self appointed elite few? If this is not the case then please correct me.


You'd have to define 'leader' before I can really comment on that.

True, the IP is the same for everyone but it serves as a basic introduction to build some foundations around our beliefs.

The AP however, is pretty much bespoke. I'm yet to meet 2 apprentices who have the exact same AP.

Welcome Team, IP Team, and Apprentice to Maitre Chevalier Jedi Alexandre Orion

IP Journal | IP Journal 2 | AP Journal | Open Journal

'The only contest any of us should be engaged in is with ourselves, to be better than yesterday'

- Knight Senan
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Sep 2019 07:41 #343123 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Brick wrote:
You'd have to define 'leader' before I can really comment on that.

True, the IP is the same for everyone but it serves as a basic introduction to build some foundations around our beliefs.

The AP however, is pretty much bespoke. I'm yet to meet 2 apprentices who have the exact same AP.


You are avoiding the question. I think you know exactly what I mean. Able to teach others.

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Sep 2019 08:05 - 03 Sep 2019 08:07 #343124 by Brick
Replied by Brick on topic Is the Dark Side Stronger?

VixensVengeance wrote: You are avoiding the question. I think you know exactly what I mean. Able to teach others.


I wasn't. If I were, I would have just ignored that part of your post. I was asking a legitimate question because I don't consider a 'teacher' and a 'leader' to be the same thing.

For me a 'leader' is someone who commands the respect of their peers, and who others are effectively happy to let speak on their behalf. By that definition, the closest we've ever had to a 'leader' was Reacher (not sure if he's active anymore), but he was an Initiate/Apprentice for a very long time and it was whilst he held those ranks that people often referred to him as one of the Jedis they most respected. Same thing with Senan, though he eventually became a knight. Currently, the Jedi I respect the most on site and whom I am most inclined to look to as an example would be Kobos, who isn't a knight.

Now a 'teacher' on the other hand is someone who is deemed 'qualified' to teach. Usually, teachers only teach to a level that they have already achieved. Thus it requires a Knight, to teach to the level of knighthood. That has nothing to do with leadership.

Your phrasing of 'training' and 'teaching' also seems to suggest (and I may be wrong about this) that you think the relationship between Training Master and Apprentice is a one way relationship. That is fundamentally inaccurate. Apprenticeship is a journey undertaken by 2 parties on a relatively equal footing (though not entirely equal) with thought and ideas being expressed by both parties and with both parties growing and learning from the experience.

This is why I clarified that the AP is bespoke, and therefore not just a generic extension to the IP. To try and standardise the AP, in the way that the IP is a 'one size fits all' set of lessons, would be a massive disservice to both the Training Master and the Apprentice

Welcome Team, IP Team, and Apprentice to Maitre Chevalier Jedi Alexandre Orion

IP Journal | IP Journal 2 | AP Journal | Open Journal

'The only contest any of us should be engaged in is with ourselves, to be better than yesterday'

- Knight Senan
Last edit: 03 Sep 2019 08:07 by Brick.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Sep 2019 13:22 #343129 by Uzima Moto

VixensVengeance wrote: I see a lot of misunderstanding of the dark side here. It's not something found in a comic book like steam says, and it's not about dominance and emotion minus logic, it's also not an absence of light as in non existent. So in "light" (pun) of that, it's best that the OP first define what is actually meant when using the term "dark side"?

Beyond that I feel the dark side followers are much more logically based than light siders. This forum is proof enough of this. It is rife with claims of supernatural qualities and abilities. This is something you will not find on dark side sites that have any worth to them. Those things are quickly squashed in favor of actual tangable results in the real world. That's what the dark side is about. It is stronger because it is based in reality and not flights of fancy that one can never ultimately achieve. Self improvement is a lie. One never changed simply by pretending to be something they are not after reading a book. Change comes through hard truth and hard work towards goals that are tangibly capable of being accomplished. That is all.


You've never experienced the supernatural or psychic phenomena?? I have, multiple times.. I've experimented with telekinesis and astral travel. It's very real and just because you don't think so isn't a "credit" to you..

And someone has a very weak definition of the Light Path.. look at that pride.. in which you would be wrong.. self improvement is one of the purposes of nature. Every species on Earth seeks to improve itself in whatever aspect it can.. If they don't adapt, or can't, they'll die off.. that is the Path of Light.. overcoming obstacles and deficiencies to further perfect one's nature.

Darkness is Death because in reality it is nothingness.. an absence of Life's Energy.. which is one and undivided..

If you want to associate your half-light path with "Darkness" go ahead.. it's wrong though..

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem
By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: KobosBrick