Is the Dark Side Stronger?

Brick wrote: Firstly I'll start with a slight disclaimer: I don't believe supernatural qualities or abilities.

I agree that there are a lot of those claims here, but I disagree that's exclusive to the 'light' side. Pretty much every self described 'sith' I've had discussions with has claimed some sort of supernatural ability. Now, they might have been trolling, but I think it unlikely in every case.

I also like to think I'm pretty reasonable, objective, and a lover of truth and facts. But I very much consider myself a Jedi.

The only thing I can think of that may support your argument, and is that 'Sith' tend to care less about people's 'feelings' and so are therefore more likely to demand to proof/logical reasoning to support arguments made.

I'd note that you contradict yourself somewhat when you say that 'self improvement is a lie' and then say that is in fact possible to change through hard work. Also, for clarity, we don't ask anyone here to pretend 'to be something they're not after reading a book'.

Well you just had a discussion with a Sith that does not claim supernatural ability so I would say you are wrong there that every sith you have spoken to claims that. I believe that any true path of the Sith will arrive at that conclusion eventually. Short of that they are just inexperienced in the path or play acting. Contrary to your assertion of Sith claims I have encountered no Sith mature in their path that also claims supernatural ability.

And you are correct, Sith are very confrontational, or may I say blunt, in their pursuits and demanding of others claims that are not supported by evidence. And I have not contradicted myself. But I do apologize if I was not clear in my statement. What I mean to say is that self improvement for the sake of self improvement is a lie. Jedi seem to put a priority on self improvement as a primary pursuit. It is the reason this place is so full of "lessons" and "courses" and mentors are the onle means to achieve knighthood. There is this false belief that one must learn from these sources in order to be called worthy. Sith do not believe this. They believe that the individual and that individuals pursuits are a primary goal. Focus is on the achievement of life valuable objectives and the idea of self improvement is simply a consequence of that pursuit. i.e. we dont wast time making "utility belts" and other such nonsense.

There is this false belief that one must learn from these sources in order to be called worthy. Sith do not believe this. They believe that the individual and that individuals pursuits are a primary goal. Focus is on the achievement of life valuable objectives and the idea of self improvement is simply a consequence of that pursuit. i.e. we dont wast time making "utility belts" and other such nonsense.

I do believe you have just described this false belief as yours. I, nor anyone I've interacted with here holds this belief. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of how this works. Iddon't wish to derail this anymore to explain, my point is that these kinds of misunderstandings lead to strawman assumptions, especially when it's convenient to support one's own biased view of their own path being superior to others'.

Fun fact: The flat earth movement is perpetuated by this same phenomenon.

VixensVengeance wrote:

Brick wrote: What I mean to say is that self improvement for the sake of self improvement is a lie. Jedi seem to put a priority on self improvement as a primary pursuit. It is the reason this place is so full of "lessons" and "courses" and mentors are the only means to achieve knighthood. There is this false belief that one must learn from these sources in order to be called worthy. Sith do not believe this. They believe that the individual and that individuals pursuits are a primary goal. Focus is on the achievement of life valuable objectives and the idea of self improvement is simply a consequence of that pursuit. i.e. we don't wast time making "utility belts" and other such nonsense.

I think this is an interesting things to consider and a thing in "Sith beliefs" that over lap with "Jedi beliefs". Now, I think you 100% right there is no self improvement for the sake of self improvement. There is always a bigger. No matter if it's success of individual pursuits or an ideal of helping people, there is that drive. I actually agree with the pursuit of individual goals, if you want to help people your things need to be in order first. I see them as the same thing, maybe Jedi approach people's feelings more and hence why there is talk of self growth for the sake of self growth, perhaps that is who ever they are talking to needs at the moment. Some Jedi and Sith too help people with some pretty deep things as they form relationship (2 paths to the same thing), rank aside (it is more a procedural and organizational thing), because I have heard great things from Masters and guests the same. The "utility belt" is just a reference in different ways you know how to talk to people and acknowledging that.

I honestly think there is a lot of over lap between the two but I may be incorrect in how I personally interpret it. Do you agree with any of that?

Much Love, Peace and Respect,
Kobos

Proteus wrote:

There is this false belief that one must learn from these sources in order to be called worthy. Sith do not believe this. They believe that the individual and that individuals pursuits are a primary goal. Focus is on the achievement of life valuable objectives and the idea of self improvement is simply a consequence of that pursuit. i.e. we dont wast time making "utility belts" and other such nonsense.

I do believe you have just described this false belief as yours. I, nor anyone I've interacted with here holds this belief. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of how this works. Iddon't wish to derail this anymore to explain, my point is that these kinds of misunderstandings lead to strawman assumptions, especially when it's convenient to support one's own biased view of their own path being superior to others'.

Fun fact: The flat earth movement is perpetuated by this same phenomenon.

Lol well of course you do not see it as a false belief, you are a jedi knight here right?

Are you required to complete "training" here under your specific curriculum in order to be called knight and thus have more priveledge here and be acknowledged as a "leader"? Everyone follows the exact same path, ip and the ap and then those are judged by a self appointed elite few? If this is not the case then please correct me.

It is rather common for immature beginner Sith to cling to images of witchcraft, goth culture and to fetishize pain and aggressiveness. The more mature Sith I’ve met discard these props and fallacies.

Similarly, many newcomer immature Jedi cling to images of knights slaying dragons, white witchcraft, and fetishize self-improvement and amicable traits. But the more mature Jedi also have discarded these props and fallacies.

So my question then is: how are (mature) Jedi and Sith different from each other?

Is the Dark Side stronger?

A fictional question requires a fictional response. You know, as well as I do, that the Dark Side is not real in the Star Wars sense. So, I'm curious as to why you're asking that specific question. Maybe you mean the parallel of what the Dark Side is in non-fictional life?

In the fiction, it is clear that the Dark Side is a quick path to strength. Sith, for example, use their anger and passion to fuel their connection to the Force. They bend it to their will. This does produce power quickly, but at the cost of their souls. Often, they lose their sense of compassion and empathy (what we deem as Humanity). This seductive path essentially turns most Sith into psychopaths hellbent on achieving without any sense of ethics or restraint.

But, this is not how the real world works. If you want an answer to the real world Dark Side, then you have to remove the fictional binds.

You will, however, arrive at a similar conclusion via the same method. If we remove a supernatural Force element from the question, you are left with people's ambitions and ethics. I guess you might ask: if the Sith in Star Wars didn't have the Force, would their methods be more effective than those who refused to give into such beliefs? In other words, is ambition plus a lack of empathy stronger than whatever the Light side equivalent is?

Plenty of people have ambitions and a lack of empathy. Many celebrities probably fit the bill. A good number of politicians do as well.

It is fairly effective. To the dismay of many who serve the Light, the dark tend to amass influence and conquer. In fact, it's SO common throughout history that I would guess that the "Light" side is more of a perversion of humanity than the other way around. The drive to be the best is hardwired in us. Sure, some of us manage to beat it out of us... but to what end? Because we're scared we'll lose? Who knows, really?

In any case... I'm not sure if I really believe any of this. But, I wanted to provide a perspective that wasn't boring. hahaha.

As for Manu, how are mature Jedi and Sith different from each other?
You'll find that each Force Realist is as similar and different as there are numbers of them.

VixensVengeance wrote: Are you required to complete "training" here under your specific curriculum in order to be called knight and thus have more priveledge here and be acknowledged as a "leader"? Everyone follows the exact same path, ip and the ap and then those are judged by a self appointed elite few? If this is not the case then please correct me.

You'd have to define 'leader' before I can really comment on that.

True, the IP is the same for everyone but it serves as a basic introduction to build some foundations around our beliefs.

The AP however, is pretty much bespoke. I'm yet to meet 2 apprentices who have the exact same AP.

Brick wrote:
You'd have to define 'leader' before I can really comment on that.

True, the IP is the same for everyone but it serves as a basic introduction to build some foundations around our beliefs.

The AP however, is pretty much bespoke. I'm yet to meet 2 apprentices who have the exact same AP.

You are avoiding the question. I think you know exactly what I mean. Able to teach others.

VixensVengeance wrote: You are avoiding the question. I think you know exactly what I mean. Able to teach others.

I wasn't. If I were, I would have just ignored that part of your post. I was asking a legitimate question because I don't consider a 'teacher' and a 'leader' to be the same thing.

For me a 'leader' is someone who commands the respect of their peers, and who others are effectively happy to let speak on their behalf. By that definition, the closest we've ever had to a 'leader' was Reacher (not sure if he's active anymore), but he was an Initiate/Apprentice for a very long time and it was whilst he held those ranks that people often referred to him as one of the Jedis they most respected. Same thing with Senan, though he eventually became a knight. Currently, the Jedi I respect the most on site and whom I am most inclined to look to as an example would be Kobos, who isn't a knight.

Now a 'teacher' on the other hand is someone who is deemed 'qualified' to teach. Usually, teachers only teach to a level that they have already achieved. Thus it requires a Knight, to teach to the level of knighthood. That has nothing to do with leadership.

Your phrasing of 'training' and 'teaching' also seems to suggest (and I may be wrong about this) that you think the relationship between Training Master and Apprentice is a one way relationship. That is fundamentally inaccurate. Apprenticeship is a journey undertaken by 2 parties on a relatively equal footing (though not entirely equal) with thought and ideas being expressed by both parties and with both parties growing and learning from the experience.

This is why I clarified that the AP is bespoke, and therefore not just a generic extension to the IP. To try and standardise the AP, in the way that the IP is a 'one size fits all' set of lessons, would be a massive disservice to both the Training Master and the Apprentice

VixensVengeance wrote: I see a lot of misunderstanding of the dark side here. It's not something found in a comic book like steam says, and it's not about dominance and emotion minus logic, it's also not an absence of light as in non existent. So in "light" (pun) of that, it's best that the OP first define what is actually meant when using the term "dark side"?

Beyond that I feel the dark side followers are much more logically based than light siders. This forum is proof enough of this. It is rife with claims of supernatural qualities and abilities. This is something you will not find on dark side sites that have any worth to them. Those things are quickly squashed in favor of actual tangable results in the real world. That's what the dark side is about. It is stronger because it is based in reality and not flights of fancy that one can never ultimately achieve. Self improvement is a lie. One never changed simply by pretending to be something they are not after reading a book. Change comes through hard truth and hard work towards goals that are tangibly capable of being accomplished. That is all.

You've never experienced the supernatural or psychic phenomena?? I have, multiple times.. I've experimented with telekinesis and astral travel. It's very real and just because you don't think so isn't a "credit" to you..

And someone has a very weak definition of the Light Path.. look at that pride.. in which you would be wrong.. self improvement is one of the purposes of nature. Every species on Earth seeks to improve itself in whatever aspect it can.. If they don't adapt, or can't, they'll die off.. that is the Path of Light.. overcoming obstacles and deficiencies to further perfect one's nature.

Darkness is Death because in reality it is nothingness.. an absence of Life's Energy.. which is one and undivided..

If you want to associate your half-light path with "Darkness" go ahead.. it's wrong though..

Being better suited to survive in a given environment improves ones life expectancy in it statistically. However, unlike any Jedi path, the evolution of species is not oriented towards any goal. Slowly biasing the gene pool in favour of alleles that were more lucky in past generations isn't necessarily an improvement or perfecting anyone's nature, because there really isn't a standard of goodness to measure any given state against. One can only say that some gene pools got "better" than their earlier counterparts by beholding all of the variations that didn't make it as well for as long as the ones that did. It's always retrospective.
In a Jedi path, on the other hand, the individual can decide what aspect of themselves they wish to change and what they would like it to be like in future, and measure progress as a change in proximity towards the set goal.

Gisteron wrote: Being better suited to survive in a given environment improves ones life expectancy in it statistically. However, unlike any Jedi path, the evolution of species is not oriented towards any goal. Slowly biasing the gene pool in favour of alleles that were more lucky in past generations isn't necessarily an improvement or perfecting anyone's nature, because there really isn't a standard of goodness to measure any given state against. One can only say that some gene pools got "better" than their earlier counterparts by beholding all of the variations that didn't make it as well for as long as the ones that did. It's always retrospective.
In a Jedi path, on the other hand, the individual can decide what aspect of themselves they wish to change and what they would like it to be like in future, and measure progress as a change in proximity towards the set goal.

This is the difference between Consciousness and Sentience.. Conscious beings make conscious change..

This is like saying who is stronger a couch potato or an MMA/Shaolin monk. Obvious the MMA fighter right? well this is how it is with the two sides of the force. The force in itself is equal but dark side users deliberately focus on power and strength thus making them stronger than most Jedi who focus more on peace and helping others. (even in the actual star wars fiction sith acolytes could rival most knights due to the difference in training and minimum requirements to even enter the sith order)

VixensVengeance wrote: I see a lot of misunderstanding of the dark side here. It's not something found in a comic book like steam says, and it's not about dominance and emotion minus logic, it's also not an absence of light as in non existent. So in "light" (pun) of that, it's best that the OP first define what is actually meant when using the term "dark side"?

Beyond that I feel the dark side followers are much more logically based than light siders. This forum is proof enough of this. It is rife with claims of supernatural qualities and abilities. This is something you will not find on dark side sites that have any worth to them. Those things are quickly squashed in favor of actual tangable results in the real world. That's what the dark side is about. It is stronger because it is based in reality and not flights of fancy that one can never ultimately achieve. Self improvement is a lie. One never changed simply by pretending to be something they are not after reading a book. Change comes through hard truth and hard work towards goals that are tangibly capable of being accomplished. That is all.

Yeah.... no.

First, while we're at it I think we should define strength. Before we can be successful in coming up with an answer that everyone (Jedi, Grey, sith) can agree on we would first have to start at the same starting point and agree on the same conclusion. Someone who is a "master" is not necessarily going to agree with someone who is a novice. So you can't simply judge and say the dark side is this and that's better. It depends on how you apply it and a master of one should be able to beat a novice of the other regardless of which side is which. Why? Because the light and dark are illusionary constructs that we add to the force because we close one eye when we look at it and hence we lose depth perception.

The dark side is an application of the Force that is wholly individualistic and self-interested. It's not that most people misunderstand the dark side. It's that people who practice the dark side don't usually go all the way. In almost every case it is illegal to do so. Even if you wanted to, you fear the consequences. You could rob a bank for example. That would definitely help break any financial chains you might have. You might even think up sinister ways to use other people to help pull it off and use them as pawns and scapegoats to try to avoid the law. So why don't all sith do it? Because they're limited by or constrained either by fear or by the light side which still holds some sway. The other thing is that I don't think the dark side is something a person is constantly connected to. Rather you draw from it when needed, just as we draw from the Force in general, as needed.

But situations don't demand the dark side all the time. Imagine if someone bought you ice cream and you responded by trying to murder them? Or imagine if you have a wife or girlfriend (as if most of you don't) and she loves you and you're constantly trying to manipulate her into doing things for you. People do this to some degree in relationships all the time but do you sit there and plot without considering her feelings?

In those moments where one COULD use the dark side then it becomes a temptation. Luke wasn't really tempted until he had to confront Vader; and only then did Yoda consider him a Jedi knight. Why? Because at this point for Yoda, seeing the devestation of the Sith (canon) and Anakin's fall, his biggest concern was not training someone who might use that power and those teachings and then go to the dark side just because they have cookies.

The Sith would use the dark side because it was the faster easier path. All they wanted was the power. That doesn't make one strong. It's stronger to resist that temptation. It takes more strength to use self-discipline. Think about the scores of overweight Americans. I could use to shed a few pounds myself and know how difficult it is to not just exercise but eat better. While a Jedi might divide their time, energy, and focus on both a sith might forego the whole eating better thing and just exercise. One may not actually be better than the other depending on how many calories one is burning vs. the other who isn't consuming them in the first place.

The physical change that happens in canon with overuse of the dark side is a visual lesson about how it trades your life (long term vitality) for short term gain. Not a lot of Sith live as long as Yoda. Some people would rather live shorter life, burning brighter and hotter and then dying out. Others would prefer to burn less brightly and have peace and tranquility. Which one is better is a matter personal choice.

I might controversially say that the dark side is the essence of it, with the light side being the application of it. Trick being we cannot know what it is so instead it's about the way we try to connect to it. The dark side is seeking the essence of the Force and the light the application of our efforts in being connected to it. Focus wholly on the essence orwhollyon the application, leads to being too selfish or too selfless. A Jedi perhaps seeks balance, such that the dark side isn't avoided but approached in a more methodological fashion in training compared to the interactive (open) bridging of natures to connect essences. I feel compelled to assume that the more complex a thing is, the more of the Force is involved in a particular thing.

IMO the light of the Force within is so bright it appears dark by virtue of being beyond our capacity to register it in terms relative to our existence. Seeking that darkness is dangerous insofar as it is full of distraction, and distraction leads to denial, and denial leads to desperation, which leads to suffering and so on. A Jedi does not avoid it, but rather tackles it with precision and skill to progress on their path. As if the movies were a visual metaphor :side:

So a feeling of power depends on the least demanding path through the configuration space, while the exertion of power might be the fastest? A factor of that might be the weighting of how time plays into the demands for energy used to the results generated, and potential unexpected results. For me I like balance, efficiency and connection to explore things like pattern recognition, and increased complexity in mental mapping.... As those three things afford me more time and energy to function in meeting those things without losing traction. Loss of traction can occur when the power is greater then the task, or when the task is greater then the power....... so it's like a balance between reaching out with the Force on one hand and holding a reserve of it in the other, in simplistic terms.

So in summary, lol, the dark side seems stronger initially to me but then requires practices which make distribution of energy to the task a bit more difficult, requiring things more like ritual etc as 'supports' to plumb the depths. While the light side is harder to connect to initially, but it's practices becoming free of supports ie self supporting.

TLDR dark side initially, but light side in longer term... noting balance needed between both else a sole focus on either will generate a feedback loop which will generate dangerous dependencies, IMO.

... but I don't call that a grey path, rather a light path. To me a grey path would balance periodic practices of wholly dark and wholly light

If the Force was a person... like a Yahweh for example...

It would start off "dark side" because it would only know itself; only care about itself. Babies really don't care one bit about you getting 8 hours of sleep. You exist to serve them. If babies had Force lighting it would be the end of the human race because no one would have them.

As the Force grew it would start to project its awareness outside of itself. After all, its previous environment was a fleshy cage with no toys, pets, people, clouds, sunsets, ice cream, etc. Once these things start getting introduced into the child's environment its much easier for the child to invest in it. But all these things are correctly viewed as part of a cycle; Yin and Yang spinning.

When a human has a child, not all, but for many humans it is a growth experience because that responsibility helps to further mature the person from adult to parent. As a parent, the more you act like a child the more danger you put your child in. So this "dark side" baby requires a very "light side" parent just to sustain it long enough to the point that it too can mature and think about things and people outside itself.

The act of creation... the interaction with creation... one starts out being a separate organism and then discovering that you aren't and that you, much like a stem cell, are a blank canvas that can become anything, and find your place in the world. With maturity one always goes from darkness to light. Whether its from womb to hospital room or from big bang to galaxies and stars.

"Let there be light"

I always took the Force as something divine, beyond my grasp and understanding. That being said, if it had sides and there was some scale to measure them, that answer would be beyond me as well. It just IS.(Or is it?)

Probably the martial arts example earlier is the closest I could ever get to understanding it, or at least, seeing it in a way I could understand.(There is a difference)

rugadd wrote: I always took the Force as something divine, beyond my grasp and understanding. That being said, if it had sides and there was some scale to measure them, that answer would be beyond me as well. It just IS.(Or is it?)

Probably the martial arts example earlier is the closest I could ever get to understanding it, or at least, seeing it in a way I could understand.(There is a difference)

Nice Rugadd! This is fairly close to how I feel, same with martial arts example. I like the music one too though, there's beautiful classical and beautiful metal and each has it's place. Thing is it's (music) all the measured vibration of air.

Much Love,
Kobos

elizabeth wrote: I dont actually believe the force is either light or dark. I think that the intent comes from the individual.

Well said.

The only dark side you need fear is the one in your own heart.

As Yoda once said on the subject " quicker yes , stronger no . "