Can't be a Jedi if you support Trump...?

Dakini wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: Several people who I am close to voted for Trump and these were their reasons:

1) Hillary sucks
1a: she is a pro-war
1b: the Clinton Foundation is corrupt, as are the Clintons.
1c: its possible that she and Bill assisted the Chinese in unethical ways which have negative impacts on America
1d: her culpability in the Benghazi attack

2) Trump is genuine about who he is and he represents an alternative to the status quo

3) America needs immigration laws and if we have them, we need to enforce them

4) Trump is a successful business man who has the experience and insight to improve our economy

5) The social justice retards are wreaking havoc with their regressive movements and socially destructive ideas

I dont care that you can "bust" some of these "myths" - true or not, these are the reasons that many people voted for Trump. Please not that none of them (including the point on immigration) involve hating brown people

Yes, you can be Jedi if you voted for Trump. More importantly, you can be a good person even if your opinion isnt in line with the far-left's virtue signaling witch-hunts and inter-sectionalist propaganda.

*round of applause* Way to go, OB1Shinobi. THAT is my opinion...
speaking of corruption... Arkanside (the suicide rate of anti-Clinton people in Arkansas, all ruled suicide)…

Thank you for your kind words. In the interest of being forthright, i have to explain that i dont much care for Trump. I think he is a narcissist and a bit of a buffoon and i do believe that he abuses his power well into the point that its fair to call him “corrupt”. I also dont see him as being any less “status quo” than anyone else: hes a business man and he is going to use his influence to help his and his peer groups business interests just as much as any other politician ever has.

My post was written because i am frustrated with todays leftists who have abandoned some of the basic principles of liberalism in favor of their own “progressive” models of bigotry. Models based on the same demarcations of race, sex, sexuality, social class and gender expression that the traditional bigots use. These people seem absolutely crazy to me and they insist on pushing the narrative that Trump won the election because pale skinned people in America want to oppress darker skinned people. Its bad enough that that they seem to think that “because shes a woman” is a valid reason to elect someone as president. In addition, progressives fail to understand how a reasonable, moral person might honestly believe that their country needs to have a process to control the flow of immigration and that people who try to slip past that process ought to be caught and deported, not because they hate brown people but because they arent completely naive about national security and they appreciate the fairness of giving precedence to those immigrants who respect the system and play by the rules.

I wont accuse Trump of being a racist but he definitely knows that a serious chunk of his support comes from that sector and i believe he deliberately panders to them.

I do believe the Clintons are corrupt and i dont want Hillary in office. Like; NOT AT ALL. I dont think shes better than Trump, i think she is just horrible in different ways. But i also recognize that the right has built a huge engine of anti-clinton propaganda that is not at all trustworthy. This is why you have to grasp the meaning and reality of nuance. You have to overcome “either/or” type thinking (either the right is lying about hillary OR she is a gokd candidate: no - the right is lying about her AND she is a horrible candidate) and you must understand that both sides are lying about themselves and about each other and that we have to put everything they say under a microscope.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Dakini wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: Several people who I am close to voted for Trump and these were their reasons:

1) Hillary sucks
1a: she is a pro-war
1b: the Clinton Foundation is corrupt, as are the Clintons.
1c: its possible that she and Bill assisted the Chinese in unethical ways which have negative impacts on America
1d: her culpability in the Benghazi attack

2) Trump is genuine about who he is and he represents an alternative to the status quo

3) America needs immigration laws and if we have them, we need to enforce them

4) Trump is a successful business man who has the experience and insight to improve our economy

5) The social justice retards are wreaking havoc with their regressive movements and socially destructive ideas

I dont care that you can "bust" some of these "myths" - true or not, these are the reasons that many people voted for Trump. Please not that none of them (including the point on immigration) involve hating brown people

Yes, you can be Jedi if you voted for Trump. More importantly, you can be a good person even if your opinion isnt in line with the far-left's virtue signaling witch-hunts and inter-sectionalist propaganda.

I understand these reasons. A lot of them are caused by propaganda from the right and extreme left. Why? Because Hillary is a moderate, corporate democrat. Is she pro-war? No. Will she vote in favor of a war? Yes. Not the same thing. Is the Clinton foundation corrupt? Probably to some extent, but probably far less so than the Trump foundation where Trump uses other people's money to buy his own portrait. There are ways that rich people often use their money and have lawyers to help them navigate around the legal system. And the rest is just circumstantial based on proximity which is what conspiracy theorists often do. I actually think we, as a nation, have underestimated the destructive influence of conspiracy theories in the US. They take a natural mistrust of power and create narratives to make everyone into an extreme caricature of themselves. And its an industry that needs to keep producing these false narratives to survive and profit. I didn't vote for Hillary but she was the lesser of two evils. I was tired of voting for that so I went with Jill Stein to send a message to the DNC.

If I had 10% of the money Trump was given by his daddy I'd be way more successful than he ever was. It's almost impossible to lose money on a casino! The problem is that people who don't know his real story just assume he's telling them the truth. They see his money and assume it all came from his business savvy. They eat up everything he says because he made them think he was going to represent them because he's upset about illegal immigration. Sadly, a lot of people have this in common with him but for DIFFERENT REASONS. On one hand you have people who are directly competing for jobs, especially construction jobs. And that's a real concern; not the immigrants who work on farms. And Trump knows because he's saved money by hiring a whole bunch of them and so he knows what that does to American workers. He also had a LOT of stuff manufactured in China. So yes, he sees a problem there because he's part of it.

I agree that's a real problem and then you have China knocking off products left and right and slowly getting paid, not just for the manufacturing, but the idea itself. Americans see these real problems as problems that have nothing to do with race but kitchen table economics. And they're not wrong.

HOWEVER... the problem is that there are other forces, USING this conflict, USING these problems. Racists are using these issues to argue that these things are a threat to white society. And whether people buy into their reasons or not it compliments their agenda. This wouldn't be a problem if non-racists are carrying out US policy. However, it IS a problem if racists like (outed racist) Steven Miller are carrying out the policy. Because the fact is, we DO have immigration laws. Just because you have laws doesn't mean people can't brake them or find ways around it. After all, look at Trump's tax returns. Oh that's right.... we can't because he's hiding them. But there's already been reporting about how the Trumps use all kinds of tricks to dodge taxes. There are also laws that Trump has run afoul of in business that are designed to protect Americans. But he has hurt Americans and taken their money and has had to pay in court when caught.

And so a wall was always a dumb idea, now exposed for being a dumb idea because they're already getting through it with basic tools from Home Depot. And seriously... if people are worried about Mexicans taking construction jobs... do they really think a construction project is going to be able to keep them out?!

And because the racists are involved in the policy the legitimate and legal asylum seekers are being treated like criminals. No one is looking at Canadians the same way, and unlike Mexicans, Canadians can apply for and compete for jobs at any and every level. Obama deported a LOT of people. And the facts were that more Mexicans were leaving than coming in. The influx of migrants is due to economic instability in South America. In other words, these are mainly asylum seekers but a lot of people seem to not care what the difference is. I wonder why that is? Canadians aren't fleeing economic instability or drug cartels. Why is no one talking about them?

Everyone isn't thinking about jobs like the average American is. A lot of people are actually thinking about demographics. This includes likely voters for the opposing party. This includes, unfortunately, "Jews will not replace us". All of this stuff is rolled into one force that Trump has used for his own personal gain. Why would he suddenly care about all the Americans he didn't hire because undocumented workers were cheaper? If he cared he could have simply hired Americans regardless of how much enforcement there was against companies caught hiring illegal workers. Because THAT TOO was illegal. 1986. So Trump doesn't care about Americans. He just knew he could use that to get elected. Period. He said what he needed to say and it worked. And then he turned around and gave tax cuts for the rich that would personally help his own bank account.

And that's why he's in trouble now. He doesn't care about the people. He doesn't care about the truth. He doesn't care about our allies. He doesn't even care about democracy. He wants to be king because of the power. And the fact that he is corrupt means that any other corrupt force can use him and his corruption to their own ends. And that's not just Putin. That's China. That's white supremacists. That's big oil interests. That's defense contractors. And the list goes on and on.

Practically any group the Jedi might perceive as a threat are the ones benefiting by and using Trump policies in exchange for personally beneficial side hustles; selling out America. People aren't all able to see this because they are thinking about their own job and they're willing to trade to get protection in that area when the reality is that Mexicans were NEVER the problem.

The problem is that powerful Americans have been using their wealth to take advantage of Americans and America. And they lobby politicians and helped write the globalization strategies that have made them even more rich and powerful. And as they grab more and more money from the economy there is less and less to circulate through everyone else's pockets. And now the new threat is automation and robots. They have been lied to and led to believe that they have to help the rich so that the rich will hire more people. So what are they going to do when Mexicans are "too expensive" to hire? These are market forces. It was always inevitable. This is capitalism. That's the problem.

Listen a little , who we vote for doesn't mean we can or cannot be a Jedi . We have the right to vote for who ever we think is best fit for what office they run for . Yes Donald Trump is corrupt and so is Hillary Clinton . Trump is hiding his tax returns and Hillary is hiding the fact that she deleted 30,000 emails that would of convicted her for a number of reasons . Personally I think Trump is the lesser of two evils here and I support Trump because he is actually doing exactly what he ran on instead of other Democrats who he will face in 2020 , those Democrats have went back on there campaign promises and promised or are promising things they can't possibly do . So ya I'mma vote for him in 2020 . Look at the failures of the fictional Jedi they focused on politics too much and doomed themselves as well as there order let's not do the same . Yes you can be a Trump supporter and be a Jedi , I am proof of that and if anyone says otherwise then they are wrong and if they say I am any less of a Jedi than the next guy then infact they are also wrong . By all means think what you like and vote how you want without the constant thought of being judged because if someone judges you for doing so then they are the ones who need to be judged . We are a sacred temple and are suppose to be a safe space . If you judge someone by the way they vote then please refrain from picking on that person . Personally my older brother is voting for Colonel Sanders for 2020 by all means be like my brother and vote the way you want not the way you are told to .

Malicious wrote: Listen a little , who we vote for doesn't mean we can or cannot be a Jedi . We have the right to vote for who ever we think is best fit for what office they run for . Yes Donald Trump is corrupt and so is Hillary Clinton . Trump is hiding his tax returns and Hillary is hiding the fact that she deleted 30,000 emails that would of convicted her for a number of reasons . Personally I think Trump is the lesser of two evils here and I support Trump because he is actually doing exactly what he ran on instead of other Democrats who he will face in 2020 , those Democrats have went back on there campaign promises and promised or are promising things they can't possibly do . So ya I'mma vote for him in 2020 . Look at the failures of the fictional Jedi they focused on politics too much and doomed themselves as well as there order let's not do the same . Yes you can be a Trump supporter and be a Jedi , I am proof of that and if anyone says otherwise then they are wrong and if they say I am any less of a Jedi than the next guy then in fact they are also wrong . By all means think what you like and vote how you want without the constant thought of being judged because if someone judges you for doing so then they are the ones who need to be judged . We are a sacred temple and are suppose to be a safe space . If you judge someone by the way they vote then please refrain from picking on that person . Personally my older brother is voting for Colonel Sanders for 2020 by all means be like my brother and vote the way you want not the way you are told to .

Not sure who this is in response to but I never said you can't be a Jedi. In fact, you should read my first post in this thread.

The failures of the fictional Jedi... sorry, I disagree. In my opinion they weren't focused on politics HARDLY ENOUGH. They were partially funded by the government and allowed themselves to be tools of the government. But they were, in fact, serving a Sith agenda in the process; a POLITICAL agenda.

This political agenda allowed Sidious to play both sides. He gave people what they wanted in exchange for power. He promised security. He ran on law and order, which capitalized on people's fear.

Do I recognize some merit in the Trump agenda? Sure. However, I'm not a victim of the propaganda that uses people's fears in exchange for power. People are afraid of immigrants taking their jobs. People are afraid of Chinese that already successful took many of their jobs (but they buy the products and love to shop at Walmart). People are losing jobs to automation. Yang is right about autonomous trucks. The alt right and white supremacists are afraid of losing power and influence, afraid of becoming a minority, Christians are afraid liberals will take abortions to the next level. Gun enthusiasts are afraid Lefties are going to take their guns. People are afraid their healthcare will become too expensive. I could go on and on, but can we agree on this one thing. Can we agree that there is a lot of fear and that it is possible for a person to capitalize on that fear?

It's easy to speculate on 30,000 emails we can't see. And I didn't support Hillary at all because of the super predators comment. But how is that any different from Trump hiding communications on the secured server that's meant for classified communications? What could we possibly say, that isn't biased, that makes that even remotely okay? And we now have witnesses telling us what the whistle blower told us; that Trump withheld money, in violation of the law, to Ukraine, in order to get dirt on a political rival.

The key is... I'm not a Hillary supporter. Trump didn't turn me against Hillary. Hillary did that herself. Hillary didn't turn me against Trump. Trump did that himself. This thread was asking a question... not about whether Jedi could be republicans or conservative. But whether they could support this man, Donald J. Trump. So its not about party. It shouldn't be about party. It should be about policy and corruption. If I stopped supporting Hillary because of what I learned about her that goes against my values why can't Trump supporters do the same thing? And its not about who voted for Trump. I can accept that a lot of people did so because they believed what he said. Now, there's an actual record. Or is it that Trump supporters cannot separate their support for the man from their support for certain policy positions they have in common. Because when we cannot differentiate, well now its like we can't even have the conversation about those policies and the BEST WAY to serve the American people. That's what bothers me, right now. It's Trumpism vs America. And it's incredibly divisive at a time when we have challenges we should be discussing and sharing ideas on. But if Trump is right about China oh well then he must be right about climate science. And if we don't do something serious in regards to our climate... its not going to matter how many Mexicans are coming back to parts of the US that used to be Mexico. We're all going to suffer. And our planet is already suffering.

So why can't we have meaningful conversations about that? Why can't we have meaningful conversations about human rights and using tear gas around children at the border and being so.... (insert nicer word than I can muster)... "uncaring and rigid" (there I think I did it) that you lose track of children and parents! And what if that was you? What if that was your child. What if you were that child? And what campaign promises kept that were so important that all this other stuff should be overlooked? I'd really like to know because its not about judgment. It's about understanding. And we can't understand each other without knowing what motivates each other and what we're all trying to protect. Maybe I can get you to my side on an issue. Maybe you can get me to your side on an issue. But there's no reason to protect these sides by not talking about them.

I'd phrase the question as can you believe and follow Jedi Believe and support Trump.

Jedi Believe

In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it.

In the sanctity of the human person. We oppose the use of torture and cruel or unusual punishment, including the death penalty.

In a society governed by laws grounded in reason and compassion, not in fear or prejudice.

In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin.

In the ethic of reciprocity, and how moral concepts are not absolute but vary by culture, religion, and over time.

In the positive influence of spiritual growth and awareness on society.

In the importance of freedom of conscience and self-determination within religious, political and other structures.

In the separation of religion and government and the freedoms of speech, association, and expression.

Zealotx yes we can agree on certain matters but what I disagree with you on is about the border and how people and children are treated . Yes I know what goes on at the southern border and actually it isn't as bad as what the far left is saying , most of what you said is actually far left propaganda . But a little bit is actually true , I will admit that . An accurate UN report which most news networks didn't show because it would invalidate most of the far left propaganda is that child separation and detainment at the southern border was much higher under Obama than Trump and most of this so called " atrocities " you hear about is actually from Obama era footage and media not from the Trump era . Yes I will admit that they still separate children from parents but my counter statement is this : if a legal American adult that has children done a crime than that adult would be imprisoned and if there was no family members able to take those children then they too would be taken into the custody of government . We just can't send the kids back without parents that would be wrong . And about the detention centers there being held at the reason why they aren't the best place is because both sides won't get over there own ego to pass bills to better the detention centers and if they do then they won't agree on how much money or if any money should be allocated to pay for the new centers . The reason why there are so called cages which are actually fencing is so the family doesn't try to escape judgment of there crimes . If I was going illegally to a different country the key term illegal and I wanted to stay there I would expect the same treatment . We tried the catch and release strategy and that didn't work they did not show up to there court hearings . If i skipped a court hearing to convict me of a crime then I would have a warrant out for my arrest but that wouldn't work for these illegal immigrants because they have no reliable legal documents to find them . The only way we could release them is if we put tracking devices in there arms and even then it wouldn't really work because you can just take it out . So in reality this is the best option . Now I know what you might say best option ? ' tilts head in confusion . Yes but we need to have better detainment centers but sadly both sides won't stop pounding sand to actually get that done or agree on the funding and put it in use .

DEBUNKING FALSE STORIES
Falsehoods About Family Separations Linger Online
By Angelo Fichera

Posted on August 27, 2019

Quick Take
A viral social media post falsely claims that former President Barack Obama “separated” many more children at the border than President Donald Trump.

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/08/falsehoods-about-family-separations-linger-online/

Okay I will gladly admit that I was wrong on one part of my previous post that I stated in Obama era there was more child separation and detention than trump era . Yes we have numbers on how many were separated under trump , No we don't have accurate numbers for child separation under Obama which I do find kinda weird . Yes is the trump era child separation is a thing and yes it was a thing as well in the Obama administration too . Yes the children are being taken away from government detention centers and placed in custody of HHS but I know they are being separated but my argument still stands : If i did a crime and had kids , and those kids didn't have a legal family members to take them then they too would be taken to HHS or social services . So I would expect the exact same treatment for illegal immigrants who done a crime . And yes personally I think open boarders is a bad idea . No I am not apart of the trump cult . If there was a Democrat who is trustworthy with the ideals I believe in I would vote for them instead but sadly that hasn't happened yet .

There is still that one tiny little detail that there are laws that people are supposed to follow in order to immigrate into the country, legally. Maybe they should, like, do that. I think we should reform the law, but i also think we should enforce whatever laws we have.

So for people who want to maintain immigration crimes are a viable offense, how do you think enforcement should work?
Currently, juveniles without eligible guardians in the US are temporary wards of the state and need housing. They can't be kept with an adult population legally. Do you think that separating families as such is reasonable in this sense, or is there a better way of housing them while their case/action is pending.

Yes I think this is the right thing to do . Maybe the government can make a sort of dormitory near the detention centers for those illegal immigrant children so they can visit there family and have housing but right now I don't think that the government would do such a thing because again they are stuck on partisan politics and won't reach across the aisle a put a way there differences .

Malicious wrote: Listen a little , who we vote for doesn't mean we can or cannot be a Jedi . We have the right to vote for who ever we think is best fit for what office they run for . Yes Donald Trump is corrupt and so is Hillary Clinton . Trump is hiding his tax returns and Hillary is hiding the fact that she deleted 30,000 emails that would of convicted her for a number of reasons . Personally I think Trump is the lesser of two evils here and I support Trump because he is actually doing exactly what he ran on instead of other Democrats who he will face in 2020 , those Democrats have went back on there campaign promises and promised or are promising things they can't possibly do . So ya I'mma vote for him in 2020 . Look at the failures of the fictional Jedi they focused on politics too much and doomed themselves as well as there order let's not do the same . Yes you can be a Trump supporter and be a Jedi , I am proof of that and if anyone says otherwise then they are wrong and if they say I am any less of a Jedi than the next guy then infact they are also wrong . By all means think what you like and vote how you want without the constant thought of being judged because if someone judges you for doing so then they are the ones who need to be judged . We are a sacred temple and are suppose to be a safe space . If you judge someone by the way they vote then please refrain from picking on that person . Personally my older brother is voting for Colonel Sanders for 2020 by all means be like my brother and vote the way you want not the way you are told to .

What would you say Trump is doing that he ran on?

We don't know who the Democratic nominee is yet but lets assume it's Biden, Sanders, Warren, Buttigieg, or Bloomberg. What campaign promises have they gone back on and which ones are impossible?

I don't know who I'm going to vote for yet. How are you so confident you know who you want to vote for when we don't know who is running, there is almost an entire year before the election, and you have not seen the debates among whomever the nominees are?

I know curiosity killed the cat (but satisfaction brought him back), yet I'm so curious. These are powerful statements you make but no specifics. I can't help but feel there are interesting things there but not a single specific detail.

Okay Trump ran on building the wall which is being built even though most Democrats not all but most tried to stop this , tax reductions which he did , more jobs which he did , lowered the unimplemented numbers especially with minorities , crack down on illegal immigration which he did and a few other things that I can't remember . I'm sorry but to the best of my terrible memory I forgotten which candidates I was talking about that in the past went back or did not fulfill their campaign promises .https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.economist.com/united-states/2019/06/08/democratic-presidential-candidates-are-making-promises-they-cannot-deliver

Most of the campaign promises that most of the Democrats running for president in 2020 can't be fufilled like Medicare for all , free college , adding a bunch new justices for the supreme Court ect . First of just a lone the Medicare for all would have a big negative impact on the economy and would make healthcare itself terrible possibly way worse . What kind of doctor that makes a six figure income would go for a plan that makes them only have a five figure income and if they do go for it then the doctors won't have much of a ascentive do it right or good for the matter .

Sorry typo unemployment numbers for minorities .

The real question is, does any of this matter?
This problem of fixing the world presents two very different paths to tread.
(either path is acceptable)
(to best understand this, think of it as abstractly/symbolically/Jungian as possible)

I like to call it the swimmer vs the floater.

The one who takes action and fights an external battle vs the one who stays in their little bubble and fights an internal battle.

That of the avenger, the fighter of truth and justice.
Or that of the monk, the sage, the mindful man on the hill, watching the weather change.

The first has the amazing quality of passion and righteousness, of fighting the good fight to mold the world into something better, STRIVING TO ACTUALIZE THE UNTAPPED INHERENT POTENTIAL BUBBLING BENEATH OUR REALITY!
And he has truth (or what his naturally-biased internal ideology deems as truth).

But so does that old peaceful fellow on the hill.
And you might say his truth is truer, as he more readily possesses something the other will always struggle to obtain.
Peace. True, deep, sigh-of-content peace and happiness.
Why? Because he does not worry superfluously.

So, who are you?
Are you one to sacrifice yourself for the world?
Or are you one to sacrifice the world for yourself?

CaesarEJW wrote:
So, who are you?
Are you one to sacrifice yourself for the world?
Or are you one to sacrifice the world for yourself?
[/b]

Thats like asking someone if they are going to heaven or hell, but what if neither place exists?

The title of this thread - "Can't be a Jedi if you support Trump?" seems to potentially convey two meanings, due to an observation someone once made about the word "you": "When I say 'you', I mean either you, me, or everybody." So, if the intent is to convey "everybody", as in "Could anybody be considered a Jedi if s/he supports Trump?" I am going to sidestep the question. There are people here who clearly think the answer is yes, and perhaps that is correct; I don't see anyone in this thread whom I think is malicious (other than Malicious, heh), Absent any bad intent, I don't wish to start proposing rules about who and who does not belong here.

But, if "you" actually means "you" in this case, so the question is "Do you yourself find being a Jedi compatible with a choice to be a Trump supporter?", a response is more clear.

Dominant in my mind is the prominent statement on the opening page of the Temple: "Jedi believe in the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it." With that in mind, I consider various impacts of the political policies of the current U.S. administration:

* Dramatically reversing America's commitment to climate change, placing ever-greater restrictions on the use of scientific evidence
at the EPA and making America one of only two nations on Earth to repudiate the Paris Climate Accord. This denies the inherent
worth of today's young people, future generations, and non-human forms of life.
* Equating asylum seekers with illegal aliens, imprisoning them under harsh conditions, and kidnapping children from their parents. This
denies the inherent worth of non-Americans.
* Making implied threats of a first-strike nuclear war on two occasions (against North Korea and Iran). This arguably denies the inherent
worth of virtually everyone.
* Implementing a tax cut mostly benefitting the very rich while over half of Americans can't afford a $400 emergency. This negates
the inherent worth of the middle class and poor.
* With some justification, withdrawing the American military from Syria - but in a manner that left our Kurdish allies exposed to danger.
This denies the inherent worth of the Kurds - and, as a sideline, has driven them into a tentative alliance with Russia.
* Trying to implement an across-the-board ban on Muslims entering the U.S. This abrogates the inherent worth of Muslims.
* In an admitted extension of longstanding U.S. policy, has participated in the instigation of disorder and violence in Venezuela and Brazil.
This denies the inherent worth of our Latin American neighbors.
* With the help of Congress, has taken no action to secure America's easily hackable election system. This denies the inherent worth
of voters, or at least their desires.

So - could I personally in good conscience be a Jedi if I supported Trump? Easy squeazy lemon peasy -

No.

Malicious wrote: Zealotx yes we can agree on certain matters but what I disagree with you on is about the border and how people and children are treated . Yes I know what goes on at the southern border and actually it isn't as bad as what the far left is saying , most of what you said is actually far left propaganda . But a little bit is actually true , I will admit that . An accurate UN report which most news networks didn't show because it would invalidate most of the far left propaganda is that child separation and detainment at the southern border was much higher under Obama than Trump and most of this so called " atrocities " you hear about is actually from Obama era footage and media not from the Trump era . Yes I will admit that they still separate children from parents but my counter statement is this : if a legal American adult that has children done a crime than that adult would be imprisoned and if there was no family members able to take those children then they too would be taken into the custody of government . We just can't send the kids back without parents that would be wrong . And about the detention centers there being held at the reason why they aren't the best place is because both sides won't get over there own ego to pass bills to better the detention centers and if they do then they won't agree on how much money or if any money should be allocated to pay for the new centers . The reason why there are so called cages which are actually fencing is so the family doesn't try to escape judgment of there crimes . If I was going illegally to a different country the key term illegal and I wanted to stay there I would expect the same treatment . We tried the catch and release strategy and that didn't work they did not show up to there court hearings . If i skipped a court hearing to convict me of a crime then I would have a warrant out for my arrest but that wouldn't work for these illegal immigrants because they have no reliable legal documents to find them . The only way we could release them is if we put tracking devices in there arms and even then it wouldn't really work because you can just take it out . So in reality this is the best option . Now I know what you might say best option ? ' tilts head in confusion . Yes but we need to have better detainment centers but sadly both sides won't stop pounding sand to actually get that done or agree on the funding and put it in use .

With all due respect, brother Malicious. I think you might be assuming that my sources of information are questionable. Alexandria Ocasio Cortez went to the border. That wasn't under Obama. It's very easy to try and blame Obama but it is clear from the testimony of Jeff Sessions that this was a new policy and that it was meant as a deterrent. But I think you can agree that there is no better witness than the people who are directly involved. If I give you second hand information you can simply dismiss the source. And I can as well. So I propose, that at least between us, we show each other video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0OvFlS9rQ0

Listen to his words. "New enforcement priorities". New. Obama didn't have a "zero-tolerance" policy. He deported a LOT of people; more than he gets credit for by the right and was often called the "Deporter in Chief". However, politics from the right constantly accuses Democrats as wanting open borders. Do you see the problem with that? Instead of arguing talking points about "the other side" we would be wise and do well to dispute issues based on verifiable evidence and not some kind of superstitious boogeyman strawman where Lefties are trying to rob you of your civil liberties. Because those are the politics of fear. And we, of all people, should not be influenced by that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbWVcXKYrkw
(and take note of the caption about the judge ordering reunifications of families)
Again, the situation at the border didn't exist under Obama like this because of the zero tolerance policy of the Trump administration. The talking points on the right enable the use of a fallacy. In other words, they say x happened under Obama so what we're doing isn't that bad. While that x may not have been that bad under Obama, anything taken to an extreme is prone to disaster. And because of the flood of people combined with zero tolerance, there were too many people to process and they had no system in place to handle so many people and keep accurate records. THAT is what created the problem. The execution. Not the law. Let's remove it from the political context so you can see my point without any "that's my team though" influence.

Let's say you have a car. It works fine. It's not the best car, but it's not the worst. It's got a decent engine and tires. Well, you know that car is going to be okay under normal driving conditions. But how long can you run that car at 100mph without any problems? At 100mph, the engine matters a whole lot more. The tires matter a whole lot more. Because obviously you're putting stress on that car. Now if the previous owner of the car was a race car driver you might expect certain things about the performance. It could be in great condition and may have upgrades. Or he could have worn it out so that it wont perform as well as it used to at higher speeds. Now if the previous owner was a granny, that makes a difference but if you're racing the car you can't blame the granny or even the race car driver for how you are pushing that car to the extreme. Is that fair? Because there wasn't a zero-tolerance policy under Obama it wouldn't be fair to compare the 2014 pics with the same kind of pics but with many more people or excuse the inability to reunite families because of how carelessly they were separated. And a lot of the recent influx are asylum seekers because of the situation in South America where their lives are in constant danger. We're not simply talking about Mexicans who are looking for work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIYRVGegSCU

note: Johnson said that chain link fences or "cages" weren't ideal but were one of the ways authorities dealt with a mass immigrants that had to be transferred to Health and Human Services (HHS) within 72 hours. - https://www.foxnews.com/politics/jeh-johnson-obama-trump-migrant-detention

if you've ever been to jail, being there for 8 hrs is different from 24 which is different from 48 and so on.

The other thing I would recommend is that, and you don't have to I'm just giving you options, we address (preferably with more than one video) one small point at a time because often the small points add up to a larger outlook and often a larger agenda and the larger agenda is often used to advance and defend these smaller points that may or may not be pure propaganda. If there's propaganda on the left that you want to disprove, trust me, I want you to disprove it. But there has to be some evidence, not an opposing talking point on the right. Because the moment we assume that 1 side is lying on the other and our side is only and always truthful with us, then we're lost. Agreed?