The problems with democracy and alternatives

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19 Aug 2019 02:53 #341438 by Manu

Phoenix Vidensia wrote:

Manu wrote:

Phoenix Vidensia wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: The West is HIGHLY propagandized.. but that's the only way to steer democratic societies. Manipulation of public opinion, "Pop culture"..


... and now you know why I detest democracy. :) It results in... this.

Detesting something is easy. What's your alternative to democracy?


Empire.


I was quite surprised at the idea of democracy not being the most feasible and desirable system in this day and age. After Phoenix’s comment, I decided we could post here rather than derail the other thread.

What are the pitfalls of democracy? Are there feasible alternative to it? How would that work?

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Step aggressively toward your fear. - Jocko Willink

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19 Aug 2019 03:02 #341439 by Carlos.Martinez3
To me , that’s like asking are there pitfalls to free will?!
The only alternative I’ve seen in the real world to democracy is not having it. Where I’m at right now , I have freedoms. Freedoms I have used and have taken on a daily basis. I’ve seen hundreds of folks see the freedoms I’ve taken and from just seeing them in practice say.. I didn’t know I could do that. I’ve done the same thing. It’s not till I started to actually use em that I relived how different life ( my life) could be. Truthfully most discussions and arguments are what democracy means to people and their interpretations of it and how their view is best and we should all understand how it benefits best ... I use mine. I don’t argue about my freedoms - I use them. I don’t argue about my democracy - I use it.

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19 Aug 2019 04:39 #341440 by Uzima Moto
I don't think it's a question of what's the best method to control society.. I think it's should we be trying to "control" in the first place..

I'm not sure if justice implies dictation as well. Democracy has its place, but as long as it could be used to assault and oppress peaceful individuals. It might as well be a dictatorship..

As long as a govermnent keeps the peace between free individuals. It could take on many forms. Although, I think a govermnent created explicitly by the consent of the governed will naturally have democratic processes of some kind.. and a court of equity..

Personally, I think the natural evolution of govermnent will see progressively more free societies..

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem
By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty.
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19 Aug 2019 07:08 #341443 by Phoenix Vidensia
So... I see my comment begged debate... Why?

First, I highly doubt anyone here has the ability or dedication, either singly or as a group, to change the current system into something else. Since that's the most likely reality, I don't see the benefit of this discussion. From what I'm looking at, it's a bunch of nobodies, sitting in a circle, making themselves feel smart by philosophizing about politics. How about this? I'll be blunt. You're not, you won't, and your opinions are worthless outside of whatever intellectual masturbation this is.

Furthermore, for the Americans here. You live in a Republic, not a Democracy. Why is this so quickly forgotten by so many people?

... Meh ...
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19 Aug 2019 07:47 #341445 by Gisteron

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: First, I highly doubt anyone here has the ability or dedication, either singly or as a group, to change the current system into something else. Since that's the most likely reality, I don't see the benefit of this discussion.

Name two discussion topics you have participated in on TOTJO or equivalent forums elsewhere, that were different in this regard, please. Also, if there is no benefit to discussions that are like this, why did you waste any time with any of them before?


From what I'm looking at, it's a bunch of nobodies, sitting in a circle, making themselves feel smart by philosophizing about politics. How about this? I'll be blunt. You're not, you won't, and your opinions are worthless outside of whatever intellectual masturbation this is.

Your point being? I'm sure you have something interesting/productive to contribute. What's stopping you?


You live in a Republic, not a Democracy. Why is this so quickly forgotten by so many people?

Possibly because it's a distinction without much of a difference, in principle.

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19 Aug 2019 12:10 - 19 Aug 2019 12:13 #341449 by Brick

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: Empire.


An Empire is not an alternative system to Democracy.

The British Empire (ie the largest Empire in history) was still a democracy at the national level in Britain.

The Roman Empire fluttered between Democracy and Dictatorship, but was still Democratic, at the local level in Rome, for a signification period of its history.

But thats kind of getting off topic.

The main methods of governing are Democracy, Dictatorship, and Anarchy.

Democracy works best for giving the people of a nation/region a say in how they are governed, and generally does a good job of preventing the people of that nation/region from being oppressed. however, it tends to make the 'State' weaker.

Dictatorships tend to do a great job of increasing a nations apparent 'strength' with impressive army's and immense levels of wealth amongst its top tier of society, however it traditionally results in larger amounts of corruption and nepotism within the 'State' and the oppression and persecution of large percentages of its people, particularly minorities and political opponents/activists.

Anarchy effectively removes all forms of structured rule and relies on people to mobilise themselves into a working society without any directives from a singular source. I can't actually think of a single example where this has been implemented, let alone succeeded. Even in primal tribes there is usually some kind of command-chain type hierarchy. But many people still promote the idea, so who am i to judge?

Personally I'm 100% in favour of Democracy as I think its the closest to a 'fair' system that we've been able to develop. Though it only works when you have a well informed electorate, which most countries seem to lack these days.

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Last edit: 19 Aug 2019 12:13 by Brick.
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19 Aug 2019 12:23 - 19 Aug 2019 13:04 #341450 by Brick

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: First, I highly doubt anyone here has the ability or dedication, either singly or as a group, to change the current system into something else. Since that's the most likely reality, I don't see the benefit of this discussion. From what I'm looking at, it's a bunch of nobodies, sitting in a circle, making themselves feel smart by philosophizing about politics. How about this? I'll be blunt. You're not, you won't, and your opinions are worthless outside of whatever intellectual masturbation this is.


Interesting. You criticised a system, and then presented an alternative, yet you now criticise others for doing the same?

Presumably you are also a nobody (in the global sense) and also lack the ability or dedication, either singly or as a group, to change the current system into something else? And yet you saw benefit in stating your own philosophising about politics.

Are we therefore to assume that your opinions, in someway, hold more worth outside of whatever intellectual masturbation this is? And if so, why is your intellectual masturbation more worthy than anyone else's?

For clarity, I'm not attempting to have a dig, this is a genuine line of inquiry.

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Last edit: 19 Aug 2019 13:04 by Brick.
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19 Aug 2019 13:54 - 19 Aug 2019 13:56 #341451 by Manu

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: So... I see my comment begged debate... Why?


That's how forums works. Your comment in the other thread was off-topic, so a new thread was warranted. And the comment itself was rather asinine, so I wished to explore if there was something more to it before coming to a definitive conclusion.

Aside from the cool edgelord dark vibe in which it is written, there is nothing of value there. Shame.

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: I highly doubt anyone here has the ability or dedication, either singly or as a group, to change the current system into something else. Since that's the most likely reality, I don't see the benefit of this discussion. From what I'm looking at, it's a bunch of nobodies, sitting in a circle, making themselves feel smart by philosophizing about politics. How about this? I'll be blunt. You're not, you won't, and your opinions are worthless outside of whatever intellectual masturbation this is.


You mean the world will not change by discussing things in an internet forum? shocking! :lol:

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Step aggressively toward your fear. - Jocko Willink

TM: Bruno Moreira (Kyber) | Public Journal
Last edit: 19 Aug 2019 13:56 by Manu. Reason: Spelling
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19 Aug 2019 14:50 #341452 by Phoenix Vidensia

Gisteron wrote: Name two discussion topics you have participated in on TOTJO or equivalent forums elsewhere, that were different in this regard, please. Also, if there is no benefit to discussions that are like this, why did you waste any time with any of them before?


I’ve done the thing I’ve criticized some here of doing. I don’t deny my hypocrisy, though I’ve expended effort to avoid it as much as possible.

However, my responses and posts here have mostly been personal expression, opinion sharing, disagreeing and such. I’ve not proposed government systems in any detail, much less did more than state my dislike for an existing system that people seem to almost worship.

I may even choose to rant about my dislike elsewhere but that’s still not the same thing as an armchair discussion, filled with pseudo intellectuals, going on like they are in class.

Gisteron wrote: I'm sure you have something interesting/productive to contribute. What's stopping you?


Interesting? Maybe. Productive? No. Useful? Not at all. Why do I not participate in this circle jerk? Waste of time.

... Meh ...

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19 Aug 2019 14:52 #341453 by Phoenix Vidensia

Manu wrote:

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: So... I see my comment begged debate... Why?


That's how forums works. Your comment in the other thread was off-topic, so a new thread was warranted. And the comment itself was rather asinine, so I wished to explore if there was something more to it before coming to a definitive conclusion.

Aside from the cool edgelord dark vibe in which it is written, there is nothing of value there. Shame.

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: I highly doubt anyone here has the ability or dedication, either singly or as a group, to change the current system into something else. Since that's the most likely reality, I don't see the benefit of this discussion. From what I'm looking at, it's a bunch of nobodies, sitting in a circle, making themselves feel smart by philosophizing about politics. How about this? I'll be blunt. You're not, you won't, and your opinions are worthless outside of whatever intellectual masturbation this is.


You mean the world will not change by discussing things in an internet forum? shocking! :lol:


“Edge lord”...

Grow up. Please, just mature to the point you stop using asinine internet slang or whatever that is.

... Meh ...

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