Betsy Ross Flag vs Colin Kaepernick (controversial)

I don't think you get to just have a US Civil War.

You lot built an empire - not with ships and flags like the brits did, but with media, influence, and products, but, you do not care at all for your "children"


Your politics, your actions, affect so much beyond the edges of your country, but you're immature, a commander without humility, you either never wanted to be the leader, or you did, but never understood the responsibility.

Now your [strike]bullshit[/strike] politics affects the world.

but you're too busy wallowing in your own filth to look to a better world for everyone*.

I can't really force the lot of you to be the "Leaders of the Free World" - I can only hope my own politicians abandon you before it's too late.





*Then again, maybe Trump is, maybe by saying "I don't care about the history of anything, I just care about Mars" is what we need, not footballers-turned-social-influencers trying to stay relevant by screaming "illuminati!" at every shadowy doorway and creaky staircase - yet, if a few seconds on the internet is anything to go by, everyone brands one a buffoon and tyrant, and the other a plucky voice for the voiceless.....

ZealotX wrote: There seems to be 2 sides:

1. America's history "is what it is", you can't change it, and there's no problem if people have pride in it
2. Aspects of America's history are very offensive to disaffected groups who were either slaves or natives

Which side are you? Does it matter?

I think there is at least one more option among the available perspectives. It would recognize that there is both that which is admirable and that which is despicable in America's history, and then examine whether or not the Betsy Ross Flag emblazoned on a shoe conveys dominant support for either the admirable or the despicable point of view.

To my knowledge, the only nudge that Nike received to withdraw its Betsy Ross Flag shoe was from Colin Kaepernick, who complained that the flag reminded him of slavery. Colin's assertion in this regard is much removed from his claim to the right of protest during playing of the National Anthem, which indeed is his right. In this case, Kaepernick equates the American flag with slavery, and I believe that, in a literal sense, that is a fallacy.

First off - slavery on the American continent vastly predates the existence of the flag and the American nation. The primary reason for the invention of America was not to promote slavery; it was to withdraw from the imbalanced influence of Britain. Yes, slavery existed at the time America was founded, but to my knowledge there is no evidence anywhere that one of the issues of contention in splitting from Britain was a disagreement about slavery. That is not the fundamental value represented in the American flag.

Secondly, while the United States permitted slavery at its founding, it is the only republic or democracy in history to eventually abolish slavery. Rome did not, Greece did not, and most other nations that reached the expanse of an empire were monarchies. The U.S. still has abundant need for reform in terms of racism, but its casting off of slavery is unprecedented. That would quite possibly not have been possible if the form of government which the U.S. flag celebrates had been different.

Colin Kaepernick was on solid ground when he took the knee to shine light on a bad situation in America. But I think he erred in urging Nike to remove their shoe from the market, and that Nike erred in complying.

Omhu Cuspor wrote: The U.S. still has abundant need for reform in terms of racism,

How so?

VixensVengeance wrote:

Omhu Cuspor wrote: The U.S. still has abundant need for reform in terms of racism,

How so?

Well - this probably won't be as clearly written as I would like. I spent as much time as I had available to compile facts and statistics, and had to assemble them kind of haphazardly. So, my apologies for that up front.

I didn't provide citations for these a claim below when evidence is broadly available, though did for some claims that are unique. Statistics are not all from the same year; they were all compiled between 2010 and 2019, so each still has some relevance.

That said, here is a mishmash of evidence that racism is still a problem in the U.S.:

African Americans comprise 12 – 14% of the U.S. total population (depending on whether multiracial members of the African American community are counted), but 37.5% of the U.S. prison population

Median African American household income is $30,134, median Hispanic household income is $34,241, median Native American household income is $39,719, and median European American (Caucasian) household income is $48,677.

The Native American unemployment rate is 7.8% overall, and much much higher upon some reservations. African American unemployment is 6.5 percent, Hispanic unemployment rate 4.5 percent, while unemployment among European Americans is just 3.1%.

Black people accounted for 31 percent of police killing victims in 2012, even though they made up just 13 percent of the US population.

The number of hate groups in the U.S. as tracked by the Southern Poverty Law Center rose from 457 in 1999 to 1,020 in 2018. FBI statistics show that hate crimes increased by 30 percent in the three-year period ending in 2017.

Richard Spencer, self-described white nationalist and head of the white supremacist National Policy Institute, advocates a "peaceful ethnic cleansing" of nonwhites from America. Two weeks after Donald Trump’s election as American President, Spencer shouted at an alt-right conference “Hail Trump, hail our people, hail victory!” and offered a Nazi salute. Members of Spencer’s audience applauded, shouted, and returned his salute. Spencer was a featured speaker at the August 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.

During his first term as President, Donald Trump called African nations and Haiti "shithole countries”, and Trump called marchers who marched alongside white supremacists and neo-Nazis in Charlottesville “very fine people”.

G4S is the world's largest security company measured by revenues, with operations in more than 90 countries. With over 570,000 employees it is the world's third-largest private employer; over 38,000 of those employees are in the United States. Most of the employees are security guards, but some train municipal police officers and a growing segment are engaged as mercenaries. There is abundant documented history of security officers employed by G4S initiating attacks based on race. (See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/22/g4s-convictions-deaths-employees-racial-overtones )

9,500 of 20,000 Customs and Border Patrol agents - almost half - belong to the recently-revealed secret Facebook group whose content mocked the deaths of asylum seekers and joked about assaulting Latino members of the U.S. Congress visiting a Texas migrant detention facility on June 30, 2019.

More subjectively, racism is evidenced by accounts of fear with minority communities. Such testimony fro: Indian Americans is offered at https://fortune.com/2017/03/22/when-americans-tell-americans-go-back-to-your-country/. Some African Americans share their story (a little below the “Key Points” section) at https://psmag.com/social-justice/why-black-america-fears-the-police .

My own search for “white nationalism" on YouTube turned up some videos that are objective news reports and some even offering hopeful stories of reformation of former white nationalists. A number of videos there are chilling, though; you can see how racism is interwoven with our culture on YouTube yourself. I could not determine a count of videos that fit the category, but there are many.

A Google search for "Racism in the 21st Century" turns up over 22 million relevant websites, though that's not a good indicator of the existence of a problem; there are over 32 million websites targeted by "Man-eating unicorn". Still, there are some serious discussions of the reality of 21st century racism; a generalized one is at https://www.focushope.edu/rethinking-racism-in-the-21st-century/ , and the article at http://www.studlife.com/forum/2009/11/02/racism-in-the-21st-century/ cites University of Delaware professor of psychology John Dovidio, who has studied racism for over three decades, estimating that up to 80% of white Americans may have racist feelings.

Does that help?

ren wrote: It's my understanding that it's a genuine historical US flag. I find it staggering that US citizens, who pledge allegiance to their flag, are offended by it.

I look at it like this. I'm 40 now (still in the process of accepting that). I remember my 30s, my 20s., I just posted a pic to facebook from my 10s but I hardly remember being that young.

That whole journey is me.

And some might use an old flag as someone posting an old photo of themselves. For the sake of memory. A lot of people commented on my old photo about how they remember that person. My mom saw it and texted me about the young man she remembered.

But...

I don't walk around in the same shoes I wore then. I'm not trying to BE that person. I didn't like everything about that person. That's part of my motivation for self-improvement. I'm not ashamed of that person, but the pride in who I am isn't a relic of the past. My pride is 40 years old, just like me. I wear clothes that I can fit today, not clothes that fit when I was 10 or 7.

The way that many people (especially in the South) are using certain symbols is basically like trying to wear those old clothes from a time when America was deep into morally dark and unenlightened territory, when some of us were slaves, when women weren't allowed to vote, etc. And remnants of that are still with us. Black people still can't live without harassment (and sometimes even lynchings and execution) and women still don't get equal pay and have their reproductive rights dictated to them by men. We're still making progress but there is a conflict between the progress and people who want to go back because the honest truth is they don't like the progress. They'd rather be represented by the flag of yester years because they don't like the America of today represented by its current flag. Sure, they say they love it and have both flags and flags on top of flags. But a flag is a very representative symbol. It marks territory. It's like wild animals pissing in the woods to let others know who the boss is there. "You're in my house, (*****)!"

And for some that memory of me is positive. Would I care to see pics of the guys who bullied me in elementary and middle school on people's shirts all around me? Probably not. Do I want to pass by statues everyday commemorating the people who murdered and enslaved my ancestors? No. We don't sing every verse of the Star Spangled Banner. And for a long time I didn't even know all the lyrics because of that just like many people never heard of the Betsy Ross flag or saw it. But it has a lot of meaning to those it has meaning to. But we often don't recognize in our society just how much conflict there is when it comes to who we are and what we're willing to tolerate.

History is what it is, but it's HOW you USE it that, imho, makes the difference. Some what to go forward. Others want to go back.

Omhu Cuspor wrote:

VixensVengeance wrote:

Omhu Cuspor wrote: The U.S. still has abundant need for reform in terms of racism,

How so?

Well - this probably won't be as clearly written as I would like. I spent as much time as I had available to compile facts and statistics, and had to assemble them kind of haphazardly. So, my apologies for that up front.

Warning: Spoiler!

I didn't provide citations for these a claim below when evidence is broadly available, though did for some claims that are unique. Statistics are not all from the same year; they were all compiled between 2010 and 2019, so each still has some relevance.

That said, here is a mishmash of evidence that racism is still a problem in the U.S.:

African Americans comprise 12 – 14% of the U.S. total population (depending on whether multiracial members of the African American community are counted), but 37.5% of the U.S. prison population

Median African American household income is $30,134, median Hispanic household income is $34,241, median Native American household income is $39,719, and median European American (Caucasian) household income is $48,677.

The Native American unemployment rate is 7.8% overall, and much much higher upon some reservations. African American unemployment is 6.5 percent, Hispanic unemployment rate 4.5 percent, while unemployment among European Americans is just 3.1%.

Black people accounted for 31 percent of police killing victims in 2012, even though they made up just 13 percent of the US population.

The number of hate groups in the U.S. as tracked by the Southern Poverty Law Center rose from 457 in 1999 to 1,020 in 2018. FBI statistics show that hate crimes increased by 30 percent in the three-year period ending in 2017.

Richard Spencer, self-described white nationalist and head of the white supremacist National Policy Institute, advocates a "peaceful ethnic cleansing" of nonwhites from America. Two weeks after Donald Trump’s election as American President, Spencer shouted at an alt-right conference “Hail Trump, hail our people, hail victory!” and offered a Nazi salute. Members of Spencer’s audience applauded, shouted, and returned his salute. Spencer was a featured speaker at the August 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.

During his first term as President, Donald Trump called African nations and Haiti "shithole countries”, and Trump called marchers who marched alongside white supremacists and neo-Nazis in Charlottesville “very fine people”.

G4S is the world's largest security company measured by revenues, with operations in more than 90 countries. With over 570,000 employees it is the world's third-largest private employer; over 38,000 of those employees are in the United States. Most of the employees are security guards, but some train municipal police officers and a growing segment are engaged as mercenaries. There is abundant documented history of security officers employed by G4S initiating attacks based on race. (See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/22/g4s-convictions-deaths-employees-racial-overtones )

9,500 of 20,000 Customs and Border Patrol agents - almost half - belong to the recently-revealed secret Facebook group whose content mocked the deaths of asylum seekers and joked about assaulting Latino members of the U.S. Congress visiting a Texas migrant detention facility on June 30, 2019.

More subjectively, racism is evidenced by accounts of fear with minority communities. Such testimony fro: Indian Americans is offered at https://fortune.com/2017/03/22/when-americans-tell-americans-go-back-to-your-country/. Some African Americans share their story (a little below the “Key Points” section) at https://psmag.com/social-justice/why-black-america-fears-the-police .

My own search for “white nationalism" on YouTube turned up some videos that are objective news reports and some even offering hopeful stories of reformation of former white nationalists. A number of videos there are chilling, though; you can see how racism is interwoven with our culture on YouTube yourself. I could not determine a count of videos that fit the category, but there are many.

A Google search for "Racism in the 21st Century" turns up over 22 million relevant websites, though that's not a good indicator of the existence of a problem; there are over 32 million websites targeted by "Man-eating unicorn". Still, there are some serious discussions of the reality of 21st century racism; a generalized one is at https://www.focushope.edu/rethinking-racism-in-the-21st-century/ , and the article at http://www.studlife.com/forum/2009/11/02/racism-in-the-21st-century/ cites University of Delaware professor of psychology John Dovidio, who has studied racism for over three decades, estimating that up to 80% of white Americans may have racist feelings.

Does that help?

Yes it does give me a much better perspective on your views. It appears you have done a lot of research into this area and found quite a few points to support your claim. However I wonder if you have researched the other side of these claims? Namely the idea that many of these issues might not actually be based in Racism but are an issue because of some other reason?

For example, the percentage of blacks in prisons you claim is a product of systemic racism in the US. This would require that police unfairly target and courts unfairly convict blacks simply because of their color. This is an incredibly serious charge and I would agree, one that needs massive reform. But what if this disparity in percentages was actually caused by something besides Racism? Maybe poverty in the black communities that lead to higher crimes being committed by these individuals. Then the reason for this percentage disparity becomes poverty and not racism. However if we are so focused on a problem that actually does not exist (racism) we miss the opportunity to actually address the real problem of poverty in order to really help these people. What do you think?

For example, the percentage of blacks in prisons you claim is a product of systemic racism in the US. This would require that police unfairly target and courts unfairly convict blacks simply because of their color. This is an incredibly serious charge and I would agree, one that needs massive reform. But what if this disparity in percentages was actually caused by something besides Racism? Maybe poverty in the black communities that lead to higher crimes being committed by these individuals. Then the reason for this percentage disparity becomes poverty and not racism. However if we are so focused on a problem that actually does not exist (racism) we miss the opportunity to actually address the real problem of poverty in order to really help these people. What do you think?

Excellent question VV,

Let me give you a bit of my personal experience. Please note, I've never been a criminal. I took a plastic batman from a store when I was probably 7 but I thought my mom had paid for it. I've been to jail twice almost 3 times and of course you talk to people while you're there. When I say you're more likely to get pulled over if you're black... yes, I believe that wholeheartedly. However, there are other contributing factors like the color of your vehicle (I ended up with 2 red cars that were magnets), your speed, age, window tint, type of vehicle, your attitude, area/neighborhood. I believe the way officers think, as long as they can mentally fetch one of these factors they will never say its because the person (or "perp") was black. And maybe you have one or more positive factors (cop thinks you're good looking, cleavage, remind him/her of their son or daughter, etc.) and the cop has reasons working the other way to let you off. It's all their discretion. They don't have to arrest you unless you're a public danger.

With that being said who is he more likely to use his discretion on? The kid that looks like guys he arrests all the time, guys who he NEVER wants his daughter to date, guys who are bigger than he was at their age, guys who don't "look like" they should drive a better car than he does, and the list goes on and on. Stats tell us that whites do pretty much the same or higher levels of crime. However, it's not "racial" when they do it. It's not labeled "minority" in anyway. There's barely a such thing as "white on white" crime. It's not special. That's why we don't generally talk about it. These crimes often do not get reported. Often people (especially domestic violence cases) don't get arrested. And often police aren't really in the areas where whites are selling drugs, etc. They're too busy looking for people who are easier to pick out, who they think are more likely to be suspects as opposed to victims. It's also easier to pick people who wont be believed in court and who they know can't afford to fight these battles in the justice system. They also know that most cops walk even after shooting unarmed black people. And the risk of arresting the son of a lawyer, judge, doctor, etc. is drastically decreased. Not to mention your standard issue hatred of "the other". At the same time, if you're white you can have a bunch of these factors and still only get a verbal warning. Why? Because consciously or subconsciously he doesn't want you (at least not to the same degree).

Fact: Most drivers surpass the speed limit. The only question is by how much. So technically we're all breaking the law. We simply try not to get caught. Ever play hide-n-seek with your parents when they're not really looking for you?

One of the reasons I believe white officers take it easier on other whites far more often is because they are aware of the economic impact of a ticket or arrest. My first arrest I was a pretty new driver, I think it was my second year of college. I got a ticket and I was told by the officer if I paid before the court date I wouldn't have to show up in court. Guess what? I paid it. However, apparently that fact wasn't communicated from one arm to the other and I ended up with a warrant 6 months later. I was arrested in the morning right before work and held in temporary holding for about 8 hours before finally giving up and letting them put me in housing (jail cell) were I spent another 2-4 hours before my uncle came. Everyone I talked to that day was there because of FTA (failure to appear in court). A LOT of people are in jail because of FTA.

https://theappeal.org/the-failure-to-appear-fallacy/

The problem is, once you're "in the system", there are gotchas that make it more difficult for your economic survival. That first time, I was in jail for a day. I didn't lose my job but I could have. The second time I got arrested (different red car; this time a luxury model) I was driving under an expired tag. Again... not a criminal. A lot of people slip up on traffic violations just like a lot of people speed. So I got arrested on a Thursday and didn't get out until I think Wednesday of the next week and the reason wasn't because I didn't post bail. It was because some judge wanted to put me on home detention until the hearing. I asked around it is something this particular judge does a lot. Of course the population in the jail was mostly African Americans. There were only 2 guys that were in charge of home detention and so they just couldn't get to me. Of course people can always say "hey it was your fault" but if you lose your job (and fortunately I had a good job where I was important enough that the owner didn't want to lose me) over something so petty you're still going to be angry that it was handled that way. And I wont get into the cost of everything in jail, from ramen noodles to phone calls. Money gets taken out of these people and their families pockets while at the same time the incarcerated person cannot work, cannot support anyone, and if they had a job going in may not have a job to come to once out. Not to mention all the court costs and everything. I understand why a lot of people feel harassed by the system.

The alarm went off at my parents church while I was home from college. I didn't want my dad going alone so I went ahead of him. I had no idea the cop would think I was the actual suspect when it was the church that I had grown up in. But it didn't matter what I said. He was determined to arrest me; had me face down on the concrete with his knee in my back (as if it was necessary). Fortunately my father arrived before he could take me to jail. And at this point you couldn't even say I fit the description because no one saw who did it.

What I went through was nothing compared to other people. So I would say its not a zero sum proposition. It's not racism OR poverty. It's both and both things feed on each other to create a cycle of economic depression. When you have a jail system and private prisons housing over a million black men who can't feed or support their families, a lot of people turn to crime (selling drugs) in order to survive in the wake of those missing people. Until they too get caught. And when people in the community go missing the community learns that the system isn't there to help them, but rather to hold them down. Why was the sentencing for crack different from cocaine, for example? Why is it that the opioid epidemic treated more so as a health issue now that it affects so many whites?

If you look at many parts of the world where poverty exists you're not going to get a clear answer that poverty = crime. This is because you have to account for inequality and cost of living. I've been to a third world country before. Poverty does play a role but so does policing. And policing can have an economic impact because all the money they're bringing in from tickets and court costs and fees and fines and commissary is all a redistribution of wealth while at the same time making it harder for people to live and work. And because people have a harder time living and working its seems you risk going to jail and losing your income either way. And what if you get kicked out of school, lose a scholarship, can't beat a case, or you plead guilty because the officer planted evidence and you don't want to lose more time by fighting it? etc. By simply policing one group of people more and not using the same amount of discretion you can institutionalize racism. And I haven't talked about how lenient judges can be with one group vs another. So there's multiple levels where people in authority can be lenient and the same number of levels where they can be more punitive.

You make some interesting points Zealotx. I definitely know what you mean about red cars! The only red car I owned I seemed to get a prolific amount of tickets with! So right with ya there. I also think it is impossible to get away from specific bias when it comes to individuals and all situations. Of course cops are human and can be influenced and sometimes they will go with hunches or they will let a grandma off the hook on a misdemeanor. I think that stuff happens all the time. I have had cops give me a warning on a month old expired tag and another cop give me a ticket for a week old expired tag. It depends a lot on the cop, your situation and the sort of day they are having. I have gotten a ticket for speeding 5 miles over the limit and also been given just a warning for 25 miles over the limit after I explained to the cop that my dog was in the back seat puking his guts out and I was on the way to the emergency vet. The point is that in every one of these cases the cop never exceeded his authority and was within his sworn duty to uphold the law, whether I was punished or let go.

These sorts of situations always have to be dynamically evaluated by each individual cop and different ones will arrive at different conclusions. but I also believe they try to be as fair as possible, which means they do not generally engage in the sort of systematic racism you are describing. Each time you were arrested you were actually guilty of a crime (civil offense) and they had the right to take you to jail. I dont think its fair for you to claim you were singled out because you were a minority after this fact. And the one time you were almost arrested the cop had just cause to detain you they way he did. Cops do some of the most dangerous jobs in the world and they do what they do not only for their protection but for yours. If you had been left free and then made an innocent yet provocative move he might have shot you. That would not be good for anyone and the fact that he put you in cuffs until he sorted the situation kept that from happening. I see it as a positive thing. This sort of behaviour has nothing to do with racism but simple caution.

I also never said poverty equals crime. all I did suggest was that poverty in the US may lead to feelings of helplessness or even desperation and that may lead stupid decisions like turning to crime as a way out. Usually a bad decision on the part of the perpetrator but you wont be able to tell them that before hand unless we get them better education and training and help to get out of the situation. This is not a matter of keeping them down through racism but just ignoring their problems in indifference.

The point of my question was to see if we could maybe shift the focus from the cries of systematic racism that only serve to perpetuate the very thing being cried as fowl and instead begin to come together to try and focus on some of the more pertinent and what I feel are real issues in the US when it comes to such things. We are all human and we all make mistakes and we are all guilty of bias from time to time. But to take that and inflate it into something like a claim of systematic racism I think is wrong. Im sorry you have felt some of your experiences were unfair. I think we have all been there. But I wonder if we can take those things and just see them for what they may actually be, just unfair, instead of making it about something in an excuse of racism that it is really not?

I once owned a sports car, and I remember one day the Police pulled me over... and said they'd been following me for 20 minutes
I had done nothing wrong the whole time.... until about 5mins from home, when it threw some flames and made too much noise on a downshift!

Policing is to a large extent reactionary, which means the offender has the advantage of surprise in all its facets, such as placement, timing, confusion etc. So Police most of the time don't know what is what, and whom is who... so they have to go off peoples behaviour.... therefore it should be easy to accept that if people act belligerent or like criminals, then they are going to react as if they are likely a criminal. The theoretically correct way to view Police IMO is as helpful people doing a dangerous job and to comply and assist them in the conduct of that as a duty to society, and so they can get on with doing it where it more likely needs doing. This inevitably and logically means poorer areas are going to have a higher likelihood of criminals, and in countries with relaxed gun laws it would mean a higher chance of their being a gun or two all the time. They can't do their job if they are dead.

Was I doing anything wrong, no. Was I driving a bright yellow 2 door coupe turbocharged with flared wheel arches filled out on only 13 inch rims with black as black window tints and front and rear spoilers which could have been spa baths, yea. So they had a job to police dangerous driving and given the options.... I was probably asking for the attention. Fair play, since I did end up giving them enough to book me.

As I think its more then fair to say they do look for percentages.... signs that might point to something being predisposed. Like in the other thread about offensive labels, using foul language might not make one a bad person but it might be the same behaviour bad people exhibit.... and therefore lead others to see you as likely being one. In the absence of better (and therefore more intrusive) intelligence I'm not sure we'd really benefit from them being less engaged... in terms of effectiveness against actual crime. So it actually does come down to concepts about 'civilization', and being 'civilized' in the context of communities behaving in ways which reduce fear and increase the effectiveness of the controls to that end, such as Police. Provision of services and such.... and it might be lost in cultural shift of the meaning of words, but the labels for less complex forms of society are not inherently derogatory. Calling something a shithole is though.... lol. What is important is accuracy in providing context and in the same way when providing statistics, they only have real meaning in the context of all the factors impacting them. It's the difference between a picked cherry and a baked pie, one has a hell of a lot more value and the other one just draws attention to itself in the moment by being shiny and vulnerable.

VixensVengeance wrote: You make some interesting points Zealotx. I definitely know what you mean about red cars! The only red car I owned I seemed to get a prolific amount of tickets with! So right with ya there. I also think it is impossible to get away from specific bias when it comes to individuals and all situations. Of course cops are human and can be influenced and sometimes they will go with hunches or they will let a grandma off the hook on a misdemeanor. I think that stuff happens all the time. I have had cops give me a warning on a month old expired tag and another cop give me a ticket for a week old expired tag. It depends a lot on the cop, your situation and the sort of day they are having. I have gotten a ticket for speeding 5 miles over the limit and also been given just a warning for 25 miles over the limit after I explained to the cop that my dog was in the back seat puking his guts out and I was on the way to the emergency vet. The point is that in every one of these cases the cop never exceeded his authority and was within his sworn duty to uphold the law, whether I was punished or let go.

This is why changes don't happen. Good people go by their own experiences and don't hold cops to account for the experiences of others. My point was that I'm 'more likely' to be treated as a criminal, "more likely" to be stopped, "more likely" to get asked if they can search my car, more likely to be followed, etc. These things happen to everyone, but it's "more likely" to happen to some people more than others. THAT is what makes it unfair. Why should a grandma get off? Shouldn't she know better? I'm not saying more grand parents should be locked up. What I am saying is that everyone should be treated equally because the more you play favorites the more your biases will dictate who you do favors for. And if you can't meet your quota because of all the favors you do then maybe you make it up by going after people you're not inclined to do favors for.

VixensVengeance wrote: These sorts of situations always have to be dynamically evaluated by each individual cop and different ones will arrive at different conclusions. but I also believe they try to be as fair as possible, which means they do not generally engage in the sort of systematic racism you are describing. Each time you were arrested you were actually guilty of a crime (civil offense) and they had the right to take you to jail. I dont think its fair for you to claim you were singled out because you were a minority after this fact. And the one time you were almost arrested the cop had just cause to detain you they way he did. Cops do some of the most dangerous jobs in the world and they do what they do not only for their protection but for yours. If you had been left free and then made an innocent yet provocative move he might have shot you. That would not be good for anyone and the fact that he put you in cuffs until he sorted the situation kept that from happening. I see it as a positive thing. This sort of behaviour has nothing to do with racism but simple caution.

You also have to consider that cops are just like people. Not all people are racist. Not all people AREN'T racist. I can give you personal stories to back that up. The more isolated a community is the more likely you'll find racists there. The more integrated a community is the less opportunity racism has to thrive and spread socially. And in more integrated communities racism is far more discreet because they're used to (unless they're drunk) consciously trying not to be overheard or create awkward or potentially combative social situations. However, when you change those environmental variables, for example... small number of black kids in a mostly white school district, and viola... racism emerges because those people has less fear of revealing their racial bias and everything they've been taught by their parents. Again... this is from the real life experience of myself and my kids. All people aren't racist. However, all people aren't NOT racist either. Many of the people who are racists also have jobs. What kind of jobs? All kinds of jobs. Including police officers, judges, politicians, etc.

Google "Mark Fuhrman tapes"

The thing is that if you ask most people if they're racist they will say "no". Mark Fuhrman lied under oath. He denied using racial slurs at any point during the past 10 years.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/150320-transcripts-of-the-fuhrman-tapes-excerpts-show-why-they-were-such-a-blow-to-the-states

Remember what I said about isolation?

Fuhrman: "We have no n*****s where I grew up."
"That's where n*****s live."

The following racists statements are bred in isolation but don't always stay in those places.

"N***** drivin' a Porsche that doesn't look like he's got a $300 suit on, you always stop him."
"First thing, anything out of a n****r's mouth for the first five or six sentences is a (expletive) lie."
"People there don't want n*****s in their town."
"We've got females and dumb n*****s and all your Mexicans that can't even write the name of the car they drive."
"He got all this money going to Ethiopia... To feed a bunch of dumb n*****s that their own government won't even feed."

This is one officer... one officer that was recorded and got caught. The best thing to happen to black people for a long time as it relates to the police is the advent of the cellphone camera. And then those recordings started exposing other Mark Fuhrmans out there to the point that many places instituted body cams on cops. There has even been at least one instance where a police officer forgot to turn his cam off and got caught planting evidence in order to convict an innocent black person. These stories have always happened but without proof. Black people have always known, as a community, because we share our stories with each other while whites were indifferent because they just assumed, by their own experiences with police, that there was nothing wrong and that we must be imagining things. Especially when it's only one person telling their story you can always say maybe the cop was just having a bad day. In reality, the difference between a regular cop having a bad day and a racist cop having a good day isn't all that different if you're black and on the receiving end. And please don't let a racist cop have a bad day. If you're white you may not even know it. If you're black, you may not survive it. That's the difference.

Have you ever heard the term "humble" in law enforcement? That's basically when (typically racist) cops teach young African Americans that they should "respect" them and it's all fear based. You might get a stop and frisk (which the statistics don't lie - this practice has been known for a long time to target minorities). The officer(s) may even try to provoke you into doing something they can then use as an excuse to beat you into submission. These things only end up in certain, more gritty, TV shows like "The Wire" or "The Shield". So it's not widely known in all sectors of society. That's why when Black Lives Matter started speaking out a lot of people were surprised by it and attacked it instead of asking why it needed to exist because MAYBE there was a problem in law enforcement.

To fully understand the situation you have to understand why police get away with it and why and how they are even encouraged to do it. You can find that here:

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/8/12128858/police-racism-officers-admit

“When you put any type of numbers on a police officer to perform, we are going to go to the most vulnerable,” Adhyl Polanco, a New York City police officer, said. “We’re going to [the] LGBT community, we’re going to the black community, we’re going to go to those people that have no boat, that have no power.”

This isn’t a new allegation for the New York City Police Department. A court previously shut down the agency’s “stop-and-frisk” policy because it disproportionately targeted minority communities.

https://www.vox.com/2015/5/31/17937860/justice-department-ferguson-police-michael-brown-shooting

In a searing report released in March 2015, the US Department of Justice uncovered a pattern of racial bias in the Ferguson Police Department. And it argued that the disparities could only be explained, at least in part, by unlawful bias and stereotypes against African Americans.

The disparities were rooted in the city’s reliance on the police department and courts for local budget revenue: Federal officials found that city officials worked together at every level of enforcement — from city management to the local prosecutor to the police department — to make as much money from fines and court fees as possible, ranging from schemes to raise total fines for municipal code violations to asking cops to write as many citations as possible.

I encourage you to read these articles in their entirety and then consider the number of times you were let go without a ticket; perhaps even times when you could have been arrested but they let you go. It's not like I never just get warnings either. I remember when a female officer let me go on a suspended license. I just couldn't drive it. And at the time I had severe groin pull so I could barely walk. I'm just talking about likelihoods when dealing with racially biased police officers. Again... not everyone is racist therefore not every officer is racist. But some are. And when you have them at EVERY LEVEL of government and when they're police captains and chiefs they can make even non-racist cops target minorities. This is what makes it "institutional racism". As much as you may think the police try to be as fair as possible this simply cannot be applied to every person. Not every person in general strives for fairness in ANY job. People suck and they suck in MANY jobs. That's why companies often record phone calls to keep customer service reps on their toes. They police their own workers to raise their level of performance. For over a hundred years we weren't policing our police. So how would anyone know if they were fair? Because they're police? It's a job. It seems special because we're not cops ourselves and they have a dangerous and important job.

Like every other job, it doesn't make them better people nor does it prevent bad or corrupt people from applying or being hired. And just like with Mark Fuhrman, the bad cops don't actually want to be caught and don't care how fair we think police officers should be. They don't give a crap about that. They want the power. And they'll use it however they see fit. And that's the problem. Suggesting police officers are fair is like saying Congressmen are honest. You have to hold them to account if you want them to tell fewer lies because their strange relationship with the truth is often a consequence of mass appeal. They do it as long as they can get away with it. Similarly, cops don't need mass appeal. As long as they're nice and fair to one group of people they don't have to be to another because those "others" do not control their pay check and more likely than not can't do anything to get them prosecuted or fired. And so they also do it as long as they can get away with it. Public opinion though makes this tricky. Some people want to protect the cops because, like you, they think they're fair and there's no problem and people are imagining racial bias. And so before we, who are getting shot, beat, stopped and frisked, harassed, picked on for being in the "wrong" neighborhood, etc. can actually stop them from getting away with everything we have to get more public opinion on our side so that the police can't hide behind it and constantly get off, aided by the grand jury process.

VixensVengeance wrote: I also never said poverty equals crime. all I did suggest was that poverty in the US may lead to feelings of helplessness or even desperation and that may lead stupid decisions like turning to crime as a way out. Usually a bad decision on the part of the perpetrator but you wont be able to tell them that before hand unless we get them better education and training and help to get out of the situation. This is not a matter of keeping them down through racism but just ignoring their problems in indifference.

Almost everything is relative. Crime is a bad decision... for you. Crime is a bad decision for me too. But I recognize that I didn't have the same environment, upbringing, and disadvantages as other kids. I wasn't raised in the hood. I spent a couple years at an expensive private school so I didn't have horribly underpaid teachers trying to teach too many kids who weren't taught well enough by the previous teachers how to read well. I had advantages. My family didn't have much money but my father was an immigrant raised in a 3rd world country. So he wasn't born into a hopeless environment of having opportunities taken away based on his skin color. Where he was from nearly everyone was black or indian. And living out in the country on an island they could survive more off the land and sea. You just can't do that here. The house my father was raised in wasn't even concrete. You could probably have built it for $1500-3000. It wasn't until he and his brothers grew up that they built a concrete house for their mother. This is why I say you have to look at the cost of living and inequality. There isn't just one reason why African Americans tend to be so disadvantaged (Even though stats say white crime rates are actually higher). There are multiple reasons that feed on each other. So the point is that people weigh their options the same way people on this site decide how much they want to use the dark side. And without the same opportunities you have, or even that I had, the math changes, and they see examples in their community that prove that they can survive and feed their families by selling drugs. The corner boy is making less than minimum wage but he can be younger than anyone McDonald's can legally hire and he can help his single mom feed the family while dad's serving time. And if the OG needs him to do more? As long as he gets more money that's the same as a promotion. He may never get to be a manager at McDonald's; not without an education. And he may have to choose work over education in order to survive. For everyone this decision between right and wrong isn't easy or cut and dry. When rent is due and your mom needs $500 to avoid being homeless what are you going to do? What if the local dope boy is willing to give you that money in exchange for working for him? These are decisions young kids are making and they grow up to be the dope boys that give those same options to other kids. So is it a stupid decision? Maybe. But maybe they see it as the only decision and therefore not stupid at all.

Almost everything is relative.

For example: the cost of education. Obviously, if you put more money into something its going to be better. The way public education was set up the money for schools comes from local taxes. So suburbs with higher incomes automatically had better tuition free schools. If you try to go to those same schools without living there... you're paying thousands of dollars per child. It doesn't cost each resident that much in their taxes. So why so high? To keep people out who can't afford it. Now combine that policy with public housing and "the projects". These kids are born into this. So by birth they are automatically destined to go to schools that have relatively no money because they're full of poor students from poor low income families. And this would have been seen and fixed long ago if it wasn't created that way on purpose. Do you really think everyone plays fair? Do you really think that someone didn't work the math out in their heads and see that if they pooled their wealth they could have better schools but if their money equally went to all the schools they would all have "average" schools? Do you think that given the opportunity to give their own children an advantage over others people wouldn't take it? We just had a college scandal involved where rich people were paying to do just that.

VixensVengeance wrote: The point of my question was to see if we could maybe shift the focus from the cries of systematic racism that only serve to perpetuate the very thing being cried as fowl and instead begin to come together to try and focus on some of the more pertinent and what I feel are real issues in the US when it comes to such things. We are all human and we all make mistakes and we are all guilty of bias from time to time. But to take that and inflate it into something like a claim of systematic racism I think is wrong. Im sorry you have felt some of your experiences were unfair. I think we have all been there. But I wonder if we can take those things and just see them for what they may actually be, just unfair, instead of making it about something in an excuse of racism that it is really not?

How do you know what it "really" is or is not? What if it's not as much about what you think it's about? What if racisim is part of the equation in more than just the police on the beat? What if racists control policies at every level of government? Not because everyone is racist. But because some people are and those who aren't may simply vote with them because they don't see the harm in doing so and because they assume they are being fair. So yes, we can talk about education but there may be some racism there too. We can talk about housing but there's racism there too. We can talk about financing and bank loans and the whole credit system but there is racism there too. There are companies in charge of hiring people that could provide better jobs to otherwise qualified black people but there is racism there too. Racism exists wherever racists exist.

Think about this: If I weren't black and there were no other black people on this site to ever bring up racial issues... would they be discussed? Who would raise awareness of racism and share personal experiences with it? Or would it be like it didn't exist because no one's talking about it? That's how every social issue is. If people aren't talking about it then it's like it doesn't exist. I personally had no idea how much homosexuality there was growing up because no one was talking about it in any way other than very negative and stereotypical. Now there's an openly gay man running for POTUS. We can turn a blind eye to many injustices just because it's not part of the conversation. But if slavery on Tatooine had been part of the conversation in the Jedi Council maybe there would have never been a Darth Vader.

Omhu Cuspor wrote:

ZealotX wrote: There seems to be 2 sides:

1. America's history "is what it is", you can't change it, and there's no problem if people have pride in it
2. Aspects of America's history are very offensive to disaffected groups who were either slaves or natives

Which side are you? Does it matter?

I think there is at least one more option among the available perspectives. It would recognize that there is both that which is admirable and that which is despicable in America's history, and then examine whether or not the Betsy Ross Flag emblazoned on a shoe conveys dominant support for either the admirable or the despicable point of view.

To my knowledge, the only nudge that Nike received to withdraw its Betsy Ross Flag shoe was from Colin Kaepernick, who complained that the flag reminded him of slavery. Colin's assertion in this regard is much removed from his claim to the right of protest during playing of the National Anthem, which indeed is his right. In this case, Kaepernick equates the American flag with slavery, and I believe that, in a literal sense, that is a fallacy.

First off - slavery on the American continent vastly predates the existence of the flag and the American nation. The primary reason for the invention of America was not to promote slavery; it was to withdraw from the imbalanced influence of Britain. Yes, slavery existed at the time America was founded, but to my knowledge there is no evidence anywhere that one of the issues of contention in splitting from Britain was a disagreement about slavery. That is not the fundamental value represented in the American flag.

Secondly, while the United States permitted slavery at its founding, it is the only republic or democracy in history to eventually abolish slavery. Rome did not, Greece did not, and most other nations that reached the expanse of an empire were monarchies. The U.S. still has abundant need for reform in terms of racism, but its casting off of slavery is unprecedented. That would quite possibly not have been possible if the form of government which the U.S. flag celebrates had been different.

Colin Kaepernick was on solid ground when he took the knee to shine light on a bad situation in America. But I think he erred in urging Nike to remove their shoe from the market, and that Nike erred in complying.

It depends on WHICH Flag you're talking about. All flags are not "US Flags" The colonies were not the "United States of America". So all this pre-civil war era stuff is from this pre-United States era and so when you use flags to symbolize that it does go to the motives of why the "United States" was resisted which is what led to the civil war. Many of these Southern civil war relics would not exist in memorial if they weren't pro-slavery. July 4th is about Independence as a STATE. Not freedom as July 4th did not free any slaves. However, the USAGE of certain flags isn't to celebrate history but to show loyalty and alignment with past views; including slavery. Because literally the only thing separating the north and the south for a long time was that issue. We're not talking about the current American flag on a shoe. We're talking about an old flag that is of historical significance to America but isn't representative of the USA.

So Kaepernick isn't simply some snowflake being triggered. He's echoing the sentiments of people like Fredrick Douglas who said:

“What, to the American slave, is your Fourth of July?

I answer: a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass-fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy-a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages.”

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/460599-what-to-the-american-slave-is-your-fourth-of-july

These words sound harsh, even to me. But you have to understand his perspective and his right to voice that perspective to anyone who would listen. In fact it reminds me of the bible when God was asking what the use was of all these vain sacrifices. Keep in mind that only a minority of whites were slave owners. The problem was these were powerful and influential people who could get poor whites to work and fight for them. This same mindset fuels corporations who have a lot of republican voters thinking that if they just give rich people more power and wealth that they will give them jobs and other advantages over "others".

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-slavery/chronology-who-banned-slavery-when-idUSL1561464920070322

Changes don’t happen? This nation fought a Civil war, they gave women and blacks rights to vote, there was the civil rights movement, there was the civil rights act, we gave lgbq the right to marry, there is affirmative action. These are just off the top of my head. Your characterization that change does not occur is false.

Why do you feel it’s more likely to happen to you that you are stopped by police? You immediately go to systemic racism but I wonder why? I asked earlier if the other poster researched the other possibilities in this and now I ask you. There is a difference between racism, discrimination and profiling. I think you are conflating the three. Anyone has a right to be a racist. But not anyone has a right to discriminate. If that right to discriminate existed then it would be systemic racism. That is not the case however. Profiling is also done to a wide variety of groups as well, not just minorities. I happen to spend a lot of time in Colorado and I also happen to ride a bike. Guess what happens to me and my friends when we leave the state of Colorado? Yes, we get profiled as more likely to be carrying marijuana than the minivan with the soccer mom on the road. And my male friends get it even worse. (Ha, yes breasts are an asset that have great advantage) None of this may be perceived as fair, however it is still not racism.

Cops can be racist, but I do not believe for a second that the entire police force engages in systematic discrimination. Judges can be racist, but once again, I don’t believe the judicial arm is engaged systemic racism or discrimination. Does profiling occur though? Hell yes it does. Is it effective? Some say it is and some say it is not. Is it fair? Maybe not, I don’t know. What I do know is that you will never fix fair as long as emotion is involved in the human condition. We can try and minimize it but life just sucks sometimes and we all have to get used to that fact.

What I do know is that the percentage of blacks that commit crime far exceeds the percentage of whites. Blacks have been attributed with committing over 52 percent of the homicides in the US over specific spans of time even though their per capita percentage is roughly 14 percent. Lesser crimes offending rate is almost 8 times higher than European Americans and youth gang membership for black youth is 46 percent compared to whites 11 percent. Black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58.5% of youth arrests for homicide and 67% for robbery. These numbers, even though they are on the decline today, are still way out of proportion. These results are highly correlated with education as well. 30 percent of those without college education and nearly 60 percent of black high school dropouts have prison records. This is why it’s so important to EDUCATE!

What I don’t believe is that the simple presence of a black kid in a white school automatically creates racism. You mentioned Mark Furhman. Yes what he said was inexcusable, but even that guy has minority members of his very own police force coming to his defense and saying hes not a racist. Whether he is or not it still does not give you the right to take one individual and apply his behavior globally to all police. Black cops have just as bad a days as white cops. Do I now have the right to claim discrimination because I was pulled over by a black cop having a bad day just because we are different races? I don’t think so. I have seen way more examples of blacks being pulled over by whites that later claim racial discrimination and didn’t know the cop had taped the incident with a body cam proving their claim absolutely false. It has become an excuse to perpetuate a myth in order to get special preference rather than the black individual admitting they were actually guilty.

I am Sith, so I have never disparaged crime as universally evil. I don’t believe in evil as a paradigm. People will do what they do and it’s up to them to accept the consequences of those actions. I believe opportunity exists for all equally. However the outcome does not. This idea that blacks are somehow removed from that does not hold water for me. If you choose crime as your opportunity then so be it, you will suffer those consequences if caught. For me it’s as simple as that. It is the sacrifice we make for living and accepting our social paradigm. Those individuals that undertake a life of crime, in my opinion, failed to take full advantage of the power they possessed in that paradigm and apply it in a way that was productive to further their passion. Short term gain is no place holder for long term goals. But when they are caught, to then cry racism as the excuse for their decision, is a lack of character to take responsibility for their action.

The whole point of my original comments in this thread were to try and get people to see that racism, if it exists, (and I believe there are instances of it in our society from all walks of life) is not the only issue and it is certainly not as big an issue as being a systemic problem. There are tons of factors that go into our interactions in a society and I think we should be fair in how we assess those factors. Instead of crying systemic racism is the only issue the black individual faces lets just be a bit more honest and say that while there may be instances of this for blacks, (as well as whites) its not appropriate to use it as an excuse to continue to segregate our communities with false claims. Instead we need to be better and work better to ferret out all the reasons that all people have differing issues and work together to fix them all. I believe a better focus on education and training as a paramount to solve this problem would be our best bet. What do you think, would you agree?

Changes don’t happen? This nation fought a Civil war, they gave women and blacks rights to vote, there was the civil rights movement, there was the civil rights act, we gave lgbq the right to marry, there is affirmative action.

First off, thank you for being open and honest in this discussion. I appreciate it more than you know. I also thank you for participating and having the courage/stomach to do it. Not everyone does. Not everyone feels comfortable expressing their true thoughts and feelings. Whether we change each other's minds is not paramount to this conversation or its importantance. My only goal here is to maybe say something that increases the level of understanding between people on all sides of the issue.

Secondly, unfortunately, the fact that you include such a span of time kind of proves the point I was trying to make and perhaps I wasn't specific enough so that's my fault. Imagine if I you were kidnapped at a very young age and sold as a sex slave to some rich billionaire. At some point you get a bit old for his tastes and so he stops forcing you to have sex. But you're still his slave and if he disapproves he still hits you. One day you complain and he says "hey at least I stopped raping you, right? Shouldn't you be happy? Maybe you should show some gratitude!" Let's say 5 more years pass; 5 more years of your precious one and only life. The guy stops hitting you as much, due in part to how polite you are and how you show him great respect when he gets angry. Things are obviously better than they were but he's still a billionaire who gets away with abusing you. If you were in that situation how would you feel? Would that "progress" be enough to satisfy you? Will he ever free you without being forced or pressured to do so?

The horrors of slavery went well beyond forced labor. That's why the references some people (not you or anyone else here) make to slavery in other times and places isn't the same. Indentured servants weren't treated as sub human animals. Even going back to biblical slavery, those people were compensated and freed when their debt was paid. At the same time men were paying dowries to marry other men's daughters. I don't approve of that system either and happy we have made progress in how we treat women. HOWEVER, I still find how we treated women inexcusable and nothing short of full equality will satisfy me on that issue. Women were treated as servants for so long that it became part of their education; to some degree even part of their nature. But because women ARE equal to men they deserve to be treated as such. Period. Same thing with all races. "All men are created equal" so all men (humans) should be treated as such.

I was at a girls house and remarked how good her sister's kids were. They were well behaved. I was immediately corrected because she didn't want them to get points for how they were SUPPOSED to be. I felt like I was being criticized in that moment but she was right. I'm sorry I cannot give people points relative to what horrors they did in the past that they're not "As bad" today. At MINIMUM... we should live in a free and fair society. I want it to be fair for you and fair for me. You contribute to it and so do I. If you're a sex slave I don't just want you your abuser to stop doing his worst. I want you to sue that man and get compensation; whatever a fair judge determines that to be. And if that billionaire and the judge are buddies then that's not okay. Corruption is not okay. I don't mean to harp on the whole point about change but I want you to understand that until we live in a fair and free society where everyone has the same opportunities people like me will never stop fighting for that. And that's what makes the Constitution of the United States so important; because it can be amended. It was built to be changed for the better. It was built with the foresight that what they were able to put in place then still needed to be made "more perfect". In order to do that though we need to stop corruption and things like Citizens United that actually give a much bigger voice to the rich and powerful and keep the systems working for them and not so much for the rest of us. Imagine if your rapist got to spend the night at jail for a matter of months and that's it.

Why do you feel it’s more likely to happen to you that you are stopped by police? You immediately go to systemic racism but I wonder why? I asked earlier if the other poster researched the other possibilities in this and now I ask you. There is a difference between racism, discrimination and profiling.

Yes there is a difference between profiling and "racial profiling". If unclear, I'm speaking about racial profiling which IS an expression of racism. And I know it's more likely to happen because my experiences inform me as well as others in my community. And more recently there have been studies to back it up as well as testimony from more than one police officer about exactly why it happens. I've already provided links to this information. Here's an interview with a police officer.

If you don't read or watch anything else, watch this video. It's only 8min of your life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV3Ctz8pfeU

examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N30tT93FChQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUVqAcRMuPU

Racial Profiling
https://www.aclu.org/issues/racial-justice/race-and-criminal-justice/racial-profiling
https://www.splcenter.org/20180918/racial-profiling-louisiana-unconstitutional-and-counterproductive

It should go without saying but racial profiling is unconstitutional. We are all innocent until proven guilty. When you start telling people stats and making people think there is a higher tendency for black people to be criminals (which there is NOT) then you're basically giving racists the ammunition and permission to target black and brown people.

But why, you may ask, can the stats not be trusted?

"The SPLC has found large racial disparities in arrest rates across the state that would be difficult to explain by different rates of crime commission alone. For example, in 2016, black people were 2.9 times as likely as white people to be arrested for marijuana possession in Louisiana,11 despite evidence that black people and white people use marijuana at similar rates."

And that's the thing. People feel justified in tolerating the police's mistreatment of minorities because they've been convinced that minorities are doing most of the crime and are more dangerous. However, this isn't actually true. Yes, there are areas, like Chicago, that are essentially warzones for gangs and yes gangs appeal more to the underpriviledged who band together to survive. But this is extremely isolated compared to the over 40 million African Americans in the United States. Plus, we focus on black gangs as if prolific while ignore white gangs.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/05/white-gangs-rise-simon-city-royals-mississippi-chicago

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/criminal-justice/reports/2018/09/13/457854/mistaken-identity/

https://tyt.com/stories/4vZLCHuQrYE4uKagy0oyMA/aiSoItcpfC720NgAEZbRc


It's all about labels and stereotypes. This is better explained by the ex-police officer in the first video, but the bottom line is that it's like the stock market. People buy and sell stock based on predictions. And then the buying and selling produces a track record from which more predictions are based. Part of the reason so many black men are in jail is because... so many black men are in jail. It's because of a cycle of targeting them and believing they are more likely to be guilty. And even if innocent they're far less likely to be able to get out of a ticket or an arrest. Once you train people to target a certain group then the stats will show that group commits more crimes because the other groups aren't being caught to the same degree. And that's why a lot of people think police are being fair. They're buying into this image of black people suggested by who the police target more often.

And that's why a black kid was gunned down in a park playing with a toy gun.

anyone has a right to be a racist. But not anyone has a right to discriminate. If that right to discriminate existed then it would be systemic racism.

I think I know what you meant to say but for the sake of clarity for others let me reverse it. It's okay to discriminate as long as you're not a business with some exceptions for private member clubs. On a personal level you can discriminate to your heart's content. A lot of people wont date black people. That's fine. You can have a preference. Some people don't date short people. I personally do not prefer women with short hair. A Racist is someone who not only thinking their race is superior but uses whatever superior power they have to benefit their race to the detriment of others.

Cops can be racist, but I do not believe for a second that the entire police force engages in systematic discrimination. Judges can be racist, but once again, I don’t believe the judicial arm is engaged systemic racism or discrimination.

Stop thinking in absolutes. We're not talking about every officer, every judge, every politician. It doesn't require that. I've seen great cops in my neighborhood. I even took a video of the most humane arrest of a black suspect I've ever seen. I happen to know that he has mental health issues and was practically asking them to kill him. This department participates in community events and interacts with people. So believe me, I know what good policing looks like.

What I do know is that you will never fix fair as long as emotion is involved in the human condition. We can try and minimize it but life just sucks sometimes and we all have to get used to that fact.

Well that's why we have courts... to fix fair. You can't fully prevent it but you can minimize it. More people would commit crimes if they thought they wouldn't be caught. More people would abuse other people if they didn't believe they could be sued. More cops would be much more careful if they thought they had to be or else they could end up in jail themselves. But as long as they're trained to fear for their lives and act like everyone is a threat and then go out and over police minorities because its easier/safer/etc. Even if Michael Woods wasn't racist himself he was still carrying out orders based on an agenda of racism. And that can be taken to court until it changes. Money has a good way of motivating change.

What I do know is that the percentage of blacks that commit crime far exceeds the percentage of whites.

This is just patently false and I've already addressed why. This idea/belief makes a lot of white people think there is "something wrong" with black people. And so its easy to assume then that its not whites (cops or otherwise) who are at fault and who are doing anything wrong. It's easy to assume that black people need to _____ and then people fill in the blanks. But its all based on the assumption that blacks are committing more crime which is false. In order to see that racism exists you have to see past the marketing of the alt right, the MAGA crowd, and all those who create this narrative that there is something wrong with black people and therefore it is okay to lock them up. This same spin has been done on Mexicans so that people are okay with locking them in cages and abusing them and basically kidnapping children. These narratives make it harder for us to attack and get rid of racism because these narratives provide racism the cover it needs to continue. And that's what I was talking about when I was talking about change. Racism hasn't gone anywhere. It's just evolved and gotten smarter about how it goes about its business. And if you're not the one feeling the effects then its designed for you not to see it.

ZealotX wrote:

ren wrote: It's my understanding that it's a genuine historical US flag. I find it staggering that US citizens, who pledge allegiance to their flag, are offended by it.

I look at it like this. I'm 40 now (still in the process of accepting that). I remember my 30s, my 20s., I just posted a pic to facebook from my 10s but I hardly remember being that young.

That whole journey is me.

And some might use an old flag as someone posting an old photo of themselves. For the sake of memory. A lot of people commented on my old photo about how they remember that person. My mom saw it and texted me about the young man she remembered.

But...

I don't walk around in the same shoes I wore then. I'm not trying to BE that person. I didn't like everything about that person. That's part of my motivation for self-improvement. I'm not ashamed of that person, but the pride in who I am isn't a relic of the past. My pride is 40 years old, just like me. I wear clothes that I can fit today, not clothes that fit when I was 10 or 7.

The way that many people (especially in the South) are using certain symbols is basically like trying to wear those old clothes from a time when America was deep into morally dark and unenlightened territory, when some of us were slaves, when women weren't allowed to vote, etc. And remnants of that are still with us. Black people still can't live without harassment (and sometimes even lynchings and execution) and women still don't get equal pay and have their reproductive rights dictated to them by men. We're still making progress but there is a conflict between the progress and people who want to go back because the honest truth is they don't like the progress. They'd rather be represented by the flag of yester years because they don't like the America of today represented by its current flag. Sure, they say they love it and have both flags and flags on top of flags. But a flag is a very representative symbol. It marks territory. It's like wild animals pissing in the woods to let others know who the boss is there. "You're in my house, (*****)!"

And for some that memory of me is positive. Would I care to see pics of the guys who bullied me in elementary and middle school on people's shirts all around me? Probably not. Do I want to pass by statues everyday commemorating the people who murdered and enslaved my ancestors? No. We don't sing every verse of the Star Spangled Banner. And for a long time I didn't even know all the lyrics because of that just like many people never heard of the Betsy Ross flag or saw it. But it has a lot of meaning to those it has meaning to. But we often don't recognize in our society just how much conflict there is when it comes to who we are and what we're willing to tolerate.

History is what it is, but it's HOW you USE it that, imho, makes the difference. Some what to go forward. Others want to go back.

Excessive simplifications. Most people are not allowed to vote in most elections. Most people are at risk of being harrassed, physically harmed or killed. Most people get paid a different salary from most other people. And most people eventually figure out it is their reproductive organs that control them, not them who control their reproduction.

You owe your life to murderers, rapists, racists, thieves and slavers just as much as you owe it to their victims. To the wind that brought that tree down on that guy that fateful day 15000 years ago. This is true now, it was true before, and it will be true in the future. rewriting history is denial of the present.

This modern political nonsense is absolute garbage. Americans talk about slavery like the only slavery that has ever existed is the one that built most of their country, and somewhat that's bad. I would be surprised if a single human being on earth isn't descended from slaves. We can talk about how the arabs were the greatest slavers of all time, or mongols were the greatest killers of all time. The fact remains everyone else has been doing a lot of killing too. You can categorise all you want, try to identify the good guys and the bad guys, but the fact is, the white man stole his white neighbour's food, the black man captured and sold his black brother. Women's greatest oppressor? Other women.


...to go back to that flag.

It is a part of history. And history is not offensive. History is the truth. History is why every single atom in the universe is doing what it is doing right now. To be offended by it is a form of hatred for the Force, which makes as much sense for Jedi as being offended by god's plan does for christians.

ren wrote: It is a part of history. And history is not offensive. History is the truth. History is why every single atom in the universe is doing what it is doing right now. To be offended by it is a form of hatred for the Force, which makes as much sense for Jedi as being offended by god's plan does for christians.

When does something become history?

If someone does anything offensive to you the second that thy've finished it is now part of history. By this logic you can't be offended by anything.

And also by this logic everything people do to each other is "the Force" so why be offended at all?

Zealotx are you trying to imply that black people are still slaves of white people in the US and all the civil war did was stop white people from raping black people? I find your analogy not only worthless but also offensive. I am of Welsh ancestry. Your comparison would be equivalent to me claiming the Romans still kept my people as slaves or that I deserved reparations from Romans for the atrocities perpetrated against my Celtic ancestors by them. Peoples have invaded lands and taken slaves for millennia. Do all those slaves deserve reparations from their former captors? Should all the decedents of all those former slaves take the decedents of their former captors to court and sue them?

Do you see that when you exit your bubble of bias how silly this becomes? You say that all men are created equal. Well in the first place I don’t believe men are “created” at all. I also do not believe there is some universal constant that makes us equal. We are not equal. So our efforts at creating civilization are what we use to attempt to make us equal. It is an evolving process that tries to provide equal opportunity for all, but not equal outcome. It’s not perfect either but we continue to strive to move it forward. And I find it offensive that some claim there is a hidden organized agenda to keep some portion of the population from that goal. Its equivalent to the conspiracy theory that we did not actually land on the moon. It’s fallacious and easily disproven, however there are those that still insist it is true. I find it dumbfounding that bias can so dramatically eclipse fact.

VixensVengeance wrote: I asked earlier if the other poster researched the other possibilities in this and now I ask you.

I have reposted, once again, my question above. I believe you have not only failed to answer it but also have ignored its implications. I support this claim by the following evidence. You have pulled your data (videos) from one of the most biased and one sided news outlets available. I also suspect you did no outside research into any of these videos but simply found something to support your claim and then posted it. This is called confirmation bias. Michael Wood has had numerous claims leveled against him from outside his protected circle that claim he was more often the perpetrator of the crimes he levels against his peers than anyone. He has also failed to ever name names or incidents or other details so that those he accused could be brought to justice. What good is the claim if nothing is done to correct it? He is also under investigation for creating a false charity and stealing over 1.4 million dollars from veterans of this nation in a false charity drives. I find his testimony to be duplicitous and his character lacking.

As for the other two videos, well the most that can be said about either incident is that in the second there may have been an abuse of the “reasonable suspicion” statutes (different than probable cause) but I cannot say for sure because conveniently anything leading up to this incident was never shown or discussed. The third video I find just and reasonable cause for everything that happened there. To try and swing either of these videos into the racial discrimination is category is unreasonable at best. No mention of race was ever shown or heard except by the ones arrested themselves claiming without grounds that it’s because they were black. The police in either video were well within their authority (save possibly the second) to undertake the action they did. And even if the second video cop overstepped her bounds she is only guilty of violation that statute, not of racism. You are allowing this biased news outlet to lead you by the nose. Their claim in the third video that we should no longer be able to use skin color or race as a descriptor when describing a suspect in a crime is just beyond ridiculous.

You are absolutely right about statistics. You can get them to say anything you want. Just look at our last presidential election! Lol. So you make a very good point that my stats I posted earlier really don’t mean much, especially to the untrained eye. However you must also apply that globally as well. Meaning your stats also mean very little. The most objective data I can find on such things is in a wiki page. It goes back and forth on a lot of things and it’s where I pulled some of those stats from. However it also has stats that show whites are arrested at a much higher rate than blacks for specific crimes as well. So what are we supposed to believe?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

I think it comes down, once again, to honesty. We need to stop focusing on one aspect of an issue in bias and ignoring everything else just to prop up a belief system. Bad and unfair things sometimes happen to blacks (to all of us no matter the race). But that does not give them the right to claim systematic racial discrimination if there is just no overarching evidence for it beyond those occasional incidents. Same goes for whites or Hispanics or Asians and so on. Life is unfair and bad stuff happens. But don’t disenfranchise an entire group profile just because of an isolated incident. Do you see when you do this you are actually engaging in profiling as well. A single racist cop hits a black person. So blacks claim the entire police force is discriminating and targeting blacks. That’s just not the right way to go about this. You are alienating the very people that are trying to help by doing this. Go after the cop, go after the problem, and don’t dirty the water by making claims that only serve to further segregate us. It’s easy to sit and blame the system, it’s harder to actually do the work and stop the outliers of our society by working together no matter the color of our skin. I urge you to stop looking at groups and start looking at people.