How is rank about academics and not just a popularity contest?

Thanks for the reasonable replies. So as far as a context goes this is NOT a christian church and so the term Lay takes on many new contexts given its general usage. I for one dont prefer any terms used that would associate the temple thusly. However I do understand that the term sermon is in general usage here but I dont see the need to qualify a sermon from one as being something different than from another with rank? How about just using the term... "Sermon?" no matter who it is created by?

Possibly - very neutral. We shall see. Won’t derail this Please feel free to go here and help an old man out lol

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Clergy/122506-lay-sermons-totjo-s-invitation

I submitted a sermon years ago and I was a Temple Member. There's no reason to differentiate - if it's quality enough to submit it as a sermon, it's quality enough to be posted as one. I am sure over the years various Members and Guests have provided quality sermons to this Temple.

https://templeofthejediorder.org/sermons/2015-sermon-trial-of-darkness

Just sort of playing devil's advocate a little here, but in theory Clergy members should write high quality sermons because they have undergone specific training in the art of sermon-writing and in communicating the spirituality of Jediism, particularly as pertains to the Force.

That's not necessarily to say that it would be impossible for a non-Clergy member to write a sermon that was of as high or higher quality, that Clergy sermons don't deviate from the spiritual and welfare based themes of the Seminary training, or that the Seminary training guarantees a high standard of sermon-writing - but does the entire Clergy system not work on the assumed basis that those who have undergone the training have developed specific experience and knowledge when it comes to communicating matters of the Force and of spiritual welfare, including through the medium of sermons?

Qualifying your statement as "devils advocacy" really only serves to weaken your position. Do you actually believe what you say or not?

I find it quite common for those with these sorts of "badges" as Knight or clergy to actually believe this idea that they are somehow at a higher or more enlightened or better trained station over others here. I have also yet to see that position actually proven. Can you actually show evidence that any of these claims are true? And in this proof you should also provide justification as to why so many "better trained" knights of jediism have left in a rage or just been banned? If they are so well trained it should be easy for them to maintain certain standards individually and as a group, but the evidence is quite contrary to this. Also please tell me why taking a non accredited internet course or two would qualify any individual as more capable to write a sermon than say one who has earned an accredited doctorate of philosophy? Or even one who has gone through the training but never received the rank?

This is my question in this thread, why is the "rank" so important? It's been said here that rank is not even about academics but more about specific behaviour. So it really stands for nothing other than ones ability to impress others.

If rank stands for nothing other than ones ability to impress others, how does this affect you Kyrin?

If rank standing for nothing other than one's ability to impress others would affect Kyrin in one particular way or another, or multiple, or none at all, how would that have any bearing on the actual topic at hand? Maybe threads started by Satan™ are exempt from the "ideas, not people" mantra we keep hearing so much about elsewhere when nothing is getting this personal. Or maybe rank makes it okay, who knows. Perhaps with more training I could understand...

Rank, ideally, is a certain guarantee of a standard of self-actualisation, and behaviour, and adherence to Jedi values. This guarantee doesn't always hold up depending on the order, its culture, its values, and the training relationship from which it stemmed, and the conditions under which they were knighted. Ever since I joined the community in 2012 I've been told how much harder it used to be to get knighted. I've put that down to generational bias and nostalgia, but I'm not always sure. Some places certainly do make it a challenge to reach knighthood - I've been granted titles in... four or five groups at this point but really only feel like it was earned at a couple. Some hand them out - and it shows. Some put their students through some real challenges that changes who they are for the better - and washes out the ones who don't make the grade. And guess what? It shows. Which is why I'll always have far more respect for the Shadow Aspect or Order of the Sith than most of the Jediist McDojos.

I think the variance between groups, subjective differences, and at times, ego-driven 'hero' symbolism really bite the concept of Knighthood in the ass. I've met Knights, and Masters, and a whole mess of variants, at Orders who really just don't have it compared to their contemporaries at other Orders. "What did you to do earn your position?" is almost a taboo question in the community,and I'm not sure it should be. I was recently talking with Alethea about introducing some sort of regular re-evaluation for Knights and Masters. A periodic review, to ensure their training hadn't hit some sort of stagnation, or their Jedi values hadn't deteriorated. The always quotable Khaos constantly warns against Knights and Masters who achieve rank, then rest on those laurels and do nothing. But if I recall correctly he followed that up with questioning over the suitability for those titles, if that's how the recipient was to respond to having them.

Knights represent their Order. That's how it works. They can be the example, or an example. People take notice of an Order's knights, and how they are representative of the spirit of the times in their Order. For better or worse.

Williamkaede wrote: Knights represent their Order. That's how it works. They can be the example, or an example. People take notice of an Order's knights, and how they are representative of the spirit of the times in their Order. For better or worse.

Couldn't speak on behalf of most visitors, but I for one don't think of the TOTJO Knights as its representatives. A big part of that is that at no time during or after my membership do I recall any sort of process by which members of the Temple could elect any of their peers to represent them. Again, this is not to question the legitimacy of anyone's rank, but when the Temple public does not propose candidates for knighthood nor votes on whether a given candidate is granted it, nor do they elect any representatives to make such choices on their behalf, then I cannot see how the knighted are either in practice or intent representing their order. That just isn't their purpose nor - in my opinion - would it be legitimate, if that was their claim.

Gisteron wrote:

Williamkaede wrote: Knights represent their Order. That's how it works. They can be the example, or an example. People take notice of an Order's knights, and how they are representative of the spirit of the times in their Order. For better or worse.

Couldn't speak on behalf of most visitors, but I for one don't think of the TOTJO Knights as its representatives. A big part of that is that at no time during or after my membership do I recall any sort of process by which members of the Temple could elect any of their peers to represent them. Again, this is not to question the legitimacy of anyone's rank, but when the Temple public does not propose candidates for knighthood nor votes on whether a given candidate is granted it, nor do they elect any representatives to make such choices on their behalf, then I cannot see how the knighted are either in practice or intent representing their order. That just isn't their purpose nor - in my opinion - would it be legitimate, if that was their claim.

I don't think the "representation" applies in this case to members feeling represented by knights. Rather, the way knights behave, interact, and carry themselves in general, serves as a sort of "cover letter" for what the Order is/values. Thus, it would make sense for Administrators to at least minimize the risk of being misrepresented, by individuals who may "make the Order look bad".