Can gift giving be selfish?

_Vergere_ wrote: Giving anything to anyone is always selfish. Allow me to explain.

When one gives (or more to the point, helps others) it always has an effect on the giver. In a broader sense, considering that we are all a part of a whole, a piece of the universe in which we are united, what you give to others you give to yourself, because you and I, and everyone alive are ONE.

Can you clarify further? Because under this there would be no such thing as selflessness because that would involve sacrifice/giving. And if there is no selflessness how does the opposite exist? So I admit to being confused.

under this there would be no such thing as selflessness because that would involve sacrifice/giving. And if there is no selflessness how does the opposite exist?

Exactly the right question. The answer is the elimination of duality. Selfless/selfish, me/you, good/evil, light/dark...

I don't claim to have evolved beyond duality, but talking about it and putting it into practice certainly helps.

For me - holiday time is tough. What it seems like to my family is every one is way out of balance during these times. Just the way we perceive it. Going to family get togeather sand party’s and things can take its toll on us as a family with different morals and different practices - not wrong just different. My boy asks why can’t I run around like everyone else or do the same things... he’s beginning to understand but the complexity is that every one has so many different ways - how do I be me and allow others to enjoy them selfs during the holidays.? That’s one of those million dolla questions we must be able to answer for ourselfs. My hope is that we all find or make our balance this holiday season - so to answer the question directly - anything can be selfish - intent and applications make things selfish or not in my own practice. Happy holidays and may the Force be with you as you seek or make your balance of it.

_Vergere_ wrote: Giving anything to anyone is always selfish. Allow me to explain.

When one gives (or more to the point, helps others) it always has an effect on the giver. In a broader sense, considering that we are all a part of a whole, a piece of the universe in which we are united, what you give to others you give to yourself, because you and I, and everyone alive are ONE.

I have to say i disagree with practically every idea in this post lol. Nothing personal against you.

1) all actions “have an effect” on the person performing them, that doesnt mean a person cannot act in a selfess way. Being selfless means that you act for the benefit of the other regardless of the benefit or consequences to yourself. Maybe you will be rewarded with a good feeling or with social recognition but thats irrelevant to the original motive - which was the benefit of the other person.

2) we may be “connected” in any number of ways but we are not one identity and there is a huge separation between us. If you stub your toe, not only will it not hurt me but it might even make me laugh. Unless youre not in my field of vision when it happens, in which case i wont even know of it.

OB1Shinobi wrote: I have to say i disagree with practically every idea in this post lol. Nothing personal against you.

Perhaps our differences are merely linguistic. But let me ask you this: where do I end and you begin? Physically, of course you may simply look at your body and see where it ends. What about mentally? Spiritually? Can you see your mind? Can you see your spirit? How far do they reach? How limited are they? ARE they limited?

Almost everything we do is selfish to some degree. This primarily goes for planned actions - when we buy gifts for someone, we tend to have a deep-seated, partly natural expectation that or imagination that when the other person opens the present, that person's joy will make you happy as well. It's very hard work to control these expectations - in Buddhism this is a core concept (Right intention, right thought, right action). If all three of them are completely realized, selfishness is conquered.

However, I do believe that selfishness is innate to us as well, albeit on a different cognitive level - acting without hesitation, for example to save someone from a bad accident by instinctively pushing that person out of the path of an oncoming bus, could be considered truly selfless. This is also very unique to the human species. Similar phenomena can also be seen in other animals, however: the relationship between a mother (and sometimes also the father) and her child is typically a selfless one.

_Vergere_ wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: Can you see your mind? Can you see your spirit? How far do they reach? How limited are they? ARE they limited?

Yes they are absolutely limited in the sense they are not connected. Just as our bodies are limited so are these things. I cant experience your thoughts and if my spirit exists it cant feel your experiences from your point of view. What you are suggesting here is really just meaningless rhetoric.

My question would be... even if it is or isn't selfish... so what?

Is there a point to all of this dissecting other than finding a nitty label to describe the situation?

Manu wrote: My question would be... even if it is or isn't selfish... so what?

Is there a point to all of this dissecting other than finding a nitty label to describe the situation?

Lol, I guess it really doesn't matter. People will be people, and we can never truly understand the motives of other people or their rationale.

_Vergere_ wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: I have to say i disagree with practically every idea in this post lol. Nothing personal against you.

Perhaps our differences are merely linguistic. But let me ask you this: where do I end and you begin? Physically, of course you may simply look at your body and see where it ends. What about mentally? Spiritually? Can you see your mind? Can you see your spirit? How far do they reach? How limited are they? ARE they limited?

Kyrin explained the first part. We may be connected in some way but we are distinct; evidence is that dont know each others thoughts and cant jump into each others experiences, a a general rule.
If the light from two candles overlap, they might be connected but the candles are not ONE light- each is a light, in an of itself.

Now i have a question; do you just take it for granted that there is a difference between “mind” and “spirit”? Can you explain where one ends and the other begins? How do you know?

To go even further. Where is the dividing line between mind and brain? Spirit and body? How do you define the individual verses the collective? Where does one end and the other begin?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: To go even further. Where is the dividing line between mind and brain? Spirit and body? How do you define the individual verses the collective? Where does one end and the other begin?

Yes! The question that we should really be asking! Thank you, Kyrin! Indeed, where is the dividing line? Where does one stop and the other start?

Do you know?

I don't.

Who does?

Let me ask you this... where are past, present, and future separate. They can be soon, here, and gone in a matter of milliseconds. Where does one draw the line? How small a fraction of time do we need to individualize them? Or is it all in our heads? Is time, then, irrelevant?

It isn't my point to discuss time, only to point out our way of thinking. We tend to split apart things that are meant to be One. OB1 made the example of two candles. Yes they appear separate. But cannot one candle light another? "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

_Vergere_ wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: To go even further. Where is the dividing line between mind and brain? Spirit and body? How do you define the individual verses the collective? Where does one end and the other begin?

Yes! The question that we should really be asking! Thank you, Kyrin! Indeed, where is the dividing line? Where does one stop and the other start?

Do you know?

I don't.

Who does?

Let me ask you this... where are past, present, and future separate. They can be soon, here, and gone in a matter of milliseconds. Where does one draw the line? How small a fraction of time do we need to individualize them? Or is it all in our heads? Is time, then, irrelevant?

It isn't my point to discuss time, only to point out our way of thinking. We tend to split apart things that are meant to be One. OB1 made the example of two candles. Yes they appear separate. But cannot one candle light another? "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

I asked if there is a difference between spirit and mind, could you respond?

Id then like to ask where spirit and mind come from, but we cant ask this until we at least consider if they are the same thing or not. Are they fhe same thing?

You prefer the question of the difference between the one and the collective. Its curious to me that you say that you dont know but then go on to speak a definite opinion on the question. Maybe we should all preface our questions with the words “in your opinion...”?

In my opinion, the difference between the one and the collective is the boundaries of our physical bodies. Each of us is an individual. We may be connected in any number of ways, but we live and die in our own skin. Republicans are one party, they arent one person. Human beings are one species, we arent all one individual. The Joneses are one family, they arent one single consciousness. We can discuss them as groups - the dogma of the Republican Party or the impact of humans on the Earth or the competitive influence the Joneses have on the neighborhood, but the groups are made of individual people. Individuals can leave the groups and the groups will still continue.

If you disagree thats great, would you be able to explain what you actually think is true? And also maybe what lead you to that conclusion?

I too am talking about the different ways that people think. Youre speaking here in a very vague and mysterious way. You say “your eyes can decieve you, dont trust them” but you offer no alternative.
Dont you trust your eyes for virtually everything that you do? Are you by chance accessing the web in brail? Our bodies are evolved to process information from our environments and the eyes are one of the most important and complex organs for doing so. And youre saying i should stop trusting them? What should i trust instead of my eyes....?

I missed some of the middle posts, but to the OP -

Mothers are always nuts - it is a child's gift to the mother at "family times" to indulge their lunacy.

_Vergere_ wrote: Yes! The question that we should really be asking! Thank you, Kyrin! Indeed, where is the dividing line? Where does one stop and the other start?

Do you know?
I don't.
Who does?

Let me ask you this... where are past, present, and future separate. They can be soon, here, and gone in a matter of milliseconds. Where does one draw the line? How small a fraction of time do we need to individualize them? Or is it all in our heads? Is time, then, irrelevant?

It isn't my point to discuss time, only to point out our way of thinking. We tend to split apart things that are meant to be One. OB1 made the example of two candles. Yes they appear separate. But cannot one candle light another? "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

Those terms are just descriptors we assign as a means to identify different eras. They are not magical and they are not mystical. We are all connected because we experience a common phenomenon we call time. But that connection does not mean we are melded into one thing. We are still individuals and we all still experience time in a subjective manner. It’s only when we can come together and agree on certain aspects of this experience that we can form terms like past present and future. And those terms are used as a matter of context. But they don’t exist outside of our own brains.

Same goes for the candles. There is nothing mystical about them, the fact one can light the other is a matter of physics. The second candle has a wick, fuel source, air is around it, and when the first candle provided heat all necessary conditions for ignition are met. Nothing magical and nowhere in that process does it require that the candles be considered one thing.

This works the exact same for any abstract concept, numbers, laws of logic, morality. None of these things exist as an absolute standard outside of our own brains. They are all experienced completely subjectively and they are all created from within our minds. And we can only utilize them because we agree on them as descriptors of the reality we experience. Once again, nothing magical or mystical in that and no requirement they exist as one thing.

I asked if there is a difference between spirit and mind, could you respond?

Deep question, OB1, and you assume I know the answer. What's your answer?

Id then like to ask where spirit and mind come from

Ever deeper we go. Who can possibly say?

I apologize for being ambiguous, but you have unanswerable questions, or at least questions I can't possibly answer for you. These are things you have to discover for yourself.

My advice: question everything. Come to no conclusions. Embrace the mystery.

_Vergere_ wrote: you have unanswerable questions, or at least questions I can't possibly answer for you. These are things you have to discover for yourself.

I think we can all agree that each one of us has to arrive to our own conclusions.

But I also think Ob1 was asking your conclusions.

Or at the very least how you "embrace the mystery"? What are your thoughts on the mind body issue?

I have no conclusions. There was a time when I did. I thought I had all the answers. But other people expressed their extreme disagreements with my philosophies, and I realized that we're all walking around in the dark in search of some faint light. Most people find it in religion, but for me, the conflict of religions that exist in my life tore me apart until I reached the conclusion that I CAN'T HAVE a conclusion. Why? Because it will be contradicted with someone else's. So who is right and who is wrong? I grew tired of trying to figure everything out.

This is the mystery I spoke of. The idea of NOT KNOWING. Some say that is the beginning of wisdom. It's a scary place, the void of ignorance. It's lonely, but also empowering.

May I ask why it is scary, lonely and empowering all in one? In the time that has made up your mind/spirit (i.e. every moment you have lived and interacted in) there has always been something you did not know. At what point in these moments that you can recall in your own mind can you see the shift between the emotions you stated above.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
kobos