Sith

Alright, first off...
I am thoroughly enjoying my time here at Totjo, it is quite a friendly place and I enjoy talking with people. However I have already come across a few people who have the opinion that Sith are all self centred and that their teachings are all about power and being powerhungry and being on the "Dark Side" of the force.

Now, as a Sith this genuinely kind of offends me. Because instead of asking or having a discussion on the topic, that one line of thought is said and suddenly that's the end of the discussion. There are many ways the Sith code and teachings can be used, and the amount of situations where it could be used for good, outweight the situations where it could(And is) used for evil. I made an example of this on a comment on my stream a few minutes ago, which was "For example, I could use the sith code to pursue my passion of helping people and being kind, however a jedi could easily use their code to ignore the pain of others, and be deluded into thinking that peace and serenity is all that exists, causing pain to others." Now this is an extreme example and was written to show that neither the Jedi way or Sith way were inherently dark, and I think it does a good job of this. Most of us here lie on the neutral or grey side of the force. But this opinion that something that "Opposes" the Jedi way is on the dark side(even though an extremely uncommon opinion), is simply just incorrect and should be addressed so that we can dispel theses misconceptions for the good of all Jedi and Sith.

I'm open to hearing other peoples opinions/praise/shunning on this, as this is meant to be a discussion and I am interested to hear the opinion of others.

Wise man once said, "Sith aren't sinners, and Jedi ain't saints," something like that anyways...

For the most part, the Sith philosophy is more self centered, in contrast to the Jedi philosophy. That doesn't necessarily make them dark, or evil. Perhaps a bit pragmatic...

@Zenchi

It was a response to quite a few things similar to that I've heard, but I still do not agree. I often use the sith code to guide my actions to make people happy.
Example:

Peace is a lie, There is only passion = If I don't do anything(Peace) I can't help others(Passion)
Through Passion I gain Strength = Through helping others(Passion) I will be trusted more by people(Strength)
Through Strength I gain Power = Being trusted by more people(Strength) I can reach even more people and help them!(Power)
Through Power I gain Victory = Through my ability to reach anybody who needs help(Power) I have achieved my passion of helping people whenever I can(Victory)

The force has now freed me to pursue another passion.

Peace is a lie, There is only passion = If I don't do anything(Peace) I can't help others(Passion)
Through Passion I gain Strength = Through helping others(Passion) I will be trusted more by people(Strength)
Through Strength I gain Power = Being trusted by more people(Strength) I can reach even more people and help them!(Power)
Through Power I gain Victory = Through my ability to reach anybody who needs help(Power) I have achieved my passion of helping people whenever I can(Victory)

That is an interesting way or looking at it. Not sure I would agree with it, but we are all capable of holding our own interpretations of things.

From all the self-proclaimed Sith I have spoken with, and I say self-proclaimed as others may not agree they follow the Sith path or that they are Sith, the major difference I can conclude between the two paths is the focus. One tends to focus more on the journey and the individual moment and the other tends to focus more on the outcome or end result and the drive.

I will not say that one is better than the other. Nor do I see any proof that would suggest so. I will say that depending on where people are in life that I believe one path may be more attractive than the other. Again, this has nothing to do with maturity, intellect or which is perceived to be better. Merely what one is looking for, one path may suit that need over another.

Lexi Reklaw wrote: @Zenchi

It was a response to quite a few things similar to that I've heard, but I still do not agree. I often use the sith code to guide my actions to make people happy.
Example:

Peace is a lie, There is only passion = If I don't do anything(Peace) I can't help others(Passion)
Through Passion I gain Strength = Through helping others(Passion) I will be trusted more by people(Strength)
Through Strength I gain Power = Being trusted by more people(Strength) I can reach even more people and help them!(Power)
Through Power I gain Victory = Through my ability to reach anybody who needs help(Power) I have achieved my passion of helping people whenever I can(Victory)

The force has now freed me to pursue another passion.

You have a unique perspective, nothing wrong with that. Just understand it doesn't match what most people interpret as being Sith philosophy, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Word of advice from a former Sith; care less what others think and say...

Something else to bear in mind... you are not the first person identifying as "Sith" to visit the Temple, and many others have a very different perspective to you. This creates a communal understanding of what it is to be Sith, to call yourself Sith, to "act like a Sith" which varies wildly from your own personal application of that philosophy.

Good for you for walking your own path - just understand that the baggage which comes with the label is likely to be a persistent problem (as it is with those who label themselves Jedi, to be fair).

Were I a Sith, I wouldn't announce it.(Preconceived notions can be harming too my character, ie a social deficit before real interaction even begins)

Were I a Sith, I would go out of my way to help people( It is extremely useful, personally and professionally, to have people like me or have a sense of gratitude concerning my person)

Were I a Sith, I wouldn't focus on points of contention publicly. (This not only associates them publicly with my character, but draws unwanted attention to my agendas.)

But I am not a Sith, so don't take any of that to heart.

Now, I am sure you are a good person, Lexi, so please couch whatever way you decide to interpret what I have to say further in this primary premise.

Ultimately, the lesson of the Star Wars mythos, per George Lucas, is that those who embrace the Dark Side of the Force ultimately wind up miserable because they inevitably become selfish in their desires; whereas those who embrace the Light Side ultimately find peace in the connections they make with others through their selfless actions. That's the "word of God", if you will, on the subject. However, that is not really satisfying to me, or to most people (I would imagine) who thirst for a more complete and rounded answer. So let's go ahead and look deeper.

Your interpretation of the code is extreme, and it comes across as biased because you have interpreted it uncharitably with the agenda of finding a way to make it come across as negative. In essence, what your Thinker has thought (The Jedi Code can be bad too) has been supported by your Prover (If I interpret it in *this exact way* it gives with my bias). This Thinker-Prover Complex is a psychological structure that many have used to talk about such issues, and I learned of it from Robert Anton Wilson's "Prometheus Rising" (great book, I seriously recommend it to everyone). Of course, you acknowledge that it was interpreted extremely, but you seem to give no room to negotiate the point that extremist views are a minority view in all cases (the majority is typically a Silent one).

Now, I understand perfectly well that you use the Sith Code to make other people happy. Certainly it reminds me of myself at a young age - I spent many years professing the Sith Code. What you seem to hold is a very Light Side interpretation of the Sith Code, and it runs contrary to how the Dark Side has ever worked in the mythos. A desire to help others runs contrary to the entire point of the Sith Code, as it is all about personal empowerment. Pride and self-aggrandizement are the core motivators of the Dark Side, and it's rooted in the use of emotions like anger and hatred to feel empowered. My own personal experience with those motivations and sources of empowerment have not been healthy, and most people I know who feed on anger or hatred as sources of strength only wind up suffering. The fact that it remains a constant in not just the Star Wars mythos but in practically all other myths across various cultures seems to indicate it is a sound piece of wisdom.

Let's go ahead and take a look at the Sith Code here:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

Notice something very interesting - the word "I" is used four times, "my" is used once, and "me" is used once as well. Six out of the Seven lines in the entire code are about the Self. In the Jedi Code, either of the two versions, contains zero self-references. Things like Trust are not a form of strength or power - they're not supposed to be a currency or means to an end, but an end in themselves. If you're using people's trust, then ultimately you're using people. People will only stand to be used for so long before that trust is broken. Let's go ahead and take a quick look at the Jedi Code to compare fairly. I prefer the version of the Code that is older from the narrative perspective of the Star Wars Legends:

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

The "There is no...there is..." version of the Code gets a lot of crap because a lot of people are very literal. That particular version of the Code is misunderstood because it is rooted in traditional Eastern Philosophies which, if you don't know a lot about to provide the context, can be very misleading. What the Code is trying to say is that there is a relationship between Illusion and Actual Reality. Emotion, yet peace - Emotions exist, obviously, we experience them and must deal with them. However, there is also Peace - and Peace is the state of actual reality because it's what we return to between emotions. The first half of each line is, therefore, illusory - ultimately ephemeral in nature and fleeting. Ignorance can be erased with education, and knowledge is out there just waiting to be discovered. Passion gives way to Serenity, we cannot always be in an emotional state because our brains simply cannot handle it. We might perceive chaos in nature, but it ultimately is the agent of Harmony on a vast cosmic scale we might not perceive (imagine a cosmos with no Supernovas or galactic collisions or Super Massive Black Holes). At the end of the day the Jedi Code is about acknowledging reality as it is, rather than how we experience it from moment-to-moment, in an attempt to better cope with those experiences.

To wrap it all up, I think it is great that you are a passionate person, and that your passion seems to be helping others. I wonder a bit about your self-assignment as Sith, and where your personal hang-ups are about the Jedi. My opinions are really my own, and not to be taken as dogma - they come from years of self reflection and reading. While I do think I've reached a satisfactory truth for myself, you may not feel the same way - I am open to a respectful dialogue on the subject.

So a question comes out of this discussion. Do you think there can be balance in ones life that encompasses both the Jedi and Sith Philosophy. That balance being one of having both a more self centered, focus on personal outcome in areas that drive one personally as well as focus on the journey and how it affects the all in the individual moment?

It sounds like the people you've been hearing are taking their definition of Sith literally from the stories. In my experience, a lot of people come in here with certain expectations, both of what it means to be a Jedi and what it means to be a Sith. The fiction holds some good lessons, but it is just a story. As Trisskar recently said of the book The Jedi Path, "One just has to look between the lines."

People will keep doing it. Tzb is completely right. These labels hold baggage. Just keep educating them.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: So a question comes out of this discussion. Do you think there can be balance in ones life that encompasses both the Jedi and Sith Philosophy. That balance being one of having both a more self centered, focus on personal outcome in areas that drive one personally as well as focus on the journey and how it affects the all in the individual moment?

I think a common misconception of the Jedi Code based on the interpretations of the films and other related media is that the Jedi are about self-abnegation. While I can see to some extent how that might be one way of interpreting the Code, certainly when contextualized with other Eastern traditions, I do not believe that caring for the self is mutually exclusive from being selfless. Part of me thinks it is about motivation, and the emotions that fuel our efforts. Doing things out of a desire to help others, rather than glorifying the ego, for example. Our actions that are moved by love and compassion, rather than anger or hatred, will always have more lasting impact and be more personally rewarding.

Gwinn wrote: It sounds like the people you've been hearing are taking their definition of Sith literally from the stories. In my experience, a lot of people come in here with certain expectations, both of what it means to be a Jedi and what it means to be a Sith. The fiction holds some good lessons, but it is just a story. As Trisskar recently said of the book The Jedi Path, "One just has to look between the lines."

People will keep doing it. Tzb is completely right. These labels hold baggage. Just keep educating them.

I absolutely agree with this sentiment. The mythos of Star Wars can only be relied on up to a certain point. What I find, though, is that the lessons taught in Star Wars are a universal in many ways - you find the same overarching theme of selflessness vs selfishness in many cultures on the planet. Generosity and Kindness are always the path to success, whereas greed and cruelty lead you to misery. When you look at the inherent focus on the self in the Sith Code, it really lends to the interpretation of that way of thinking as ultimately selfish and inevitably self destructive. Often repeated expressions found in geographically isolated areas, to me, constitutes wisdom to me.

In the stories, those who embrace the Dark Side are corrupted by the nature of the power they use even moreso than by the emotions they embrace. So, no, it's not like people claiming the title Sith in our reality will not have their eyes turn yellow or their skin grow pale and vein-y. Yet, I find that those who are quick to anger wind up letting that emotion become a reflexive reaction to stimuli in the real world. They're quick to accuse and look for an external source to a problem without realizing that, often, their own hyper-reaction only exacerbates the situation they are in. All this comes from my own experience being the kind of person who reacted with anger to my own problems in life, and also in my observations of others I know personally and even see online.

Lexi Reklaw wrote: Most of us here lie on the neutral or grey side of the force.

I'm open to hearing other peoples opinions/praise/shunning on this, as this is meant to be a discussion and I am interested to hear the opinion of others.

I have knowledge on a few styles of philosophy.. some are ''very dark'', and others are ''light'', neither is rewarding when realizing that everything we can use/learn requires application to determine how we experience its effects, so I would conciser myself ''light''. Having that said, Sith come in a wide variation, just like Jedi. Could it be that the only difference between a Jedi and a Sith is its way of communicating between other Jedi/Sith rather than a difference in communicating with non-Jedi/non-Sith? :huh:

I live with a with a sith mentality daily. It is not the only idea at lives in me. So many times I read well its one or the other, I don't subscribe to that. My Jedi ism let's me choose. To many times in my life I thought it was one or the other black or white, it doesn't have to be. Sith contain justified absolutes, able to sustain in in sustainable times, been there don't that . not my choice now, to be the example others need ... To be the here's a few ...other ways .... If... U wanna try ... Is my goal. The more I reach and plan for this the more that ...light...itnisna light... Fades from my space. It comes to choices . make yours regardless of what ...should be or what's absolute... You can make a choice. ...I fight for the users... For those who seem lost in that world like me , I couldn't see past my nose some days, now my choice is to show the light that's possible... Not glory in the carnage I've left behind. I'm carful what and how I build, and plant... We all should be aware of what we put in our self's... Light or dark..

@ codex
Communication is vital to humans and interaction. If open, any form will create a bond. We choose to create them. We choose to not. Sith n light ...I live and balance a great opertunity is in both sides. Judgment can't come from me. My Jedi ism says seek...find... So wouldn't anything I find...light dark red yellow calm fierce be up to the one who finds it and up to them really? The lines are what we draw . The labels are our doing. So have you found strength in hard times or faith when there's no faith? Sith or light? .... In Jedi ism when you find when you seek its called learning. Change some of the lines n labels every day if u can ... It helps understand more

carlos.martinez3 wrote: The labels are our doing. So have you found strength in hard times or faith when there's no faith? Change some of the lines n labels every day if u can ... It helps understand more

The games of Black and White are familiar, no worries. I am not sure about my strengths Carlos.. but that is a discussion not suited for this topic.. In our world of duality labels are created by our mind, changing them is difficult but I will try to, if you think it would help me.

It did me... no longer do I say things arearethis and that black n white, I say they can be. Literally this includes ...hope or ability not no...but a yes , open to anything and anyone. The human potential is avalible always in everyone. Every day. Keep on Codex blaze the trail!!!


No light or dark just... Do. There are benifits! Labels ... Let them fall off

Mehh
( photo from You are special by Max L)

You ever consider another order, Lexi? Say Order of the Sith (OotS) or Force Academy's (FA) Dark Aspect (you might already be there, I just can't remember seeing your name on either, or if you're under another name ).

I rather like your interpretation of the Sith Code. But I will say it's not exactly unique like some of the other people have led you to believe in here.

For those of you arguing that the Star Wars Sith are something that people need to consider when they become Sith- who cares about Star Wars? It might be the inspiration, but even ToTJO has moved beyond the Star Wars references concerning Jedi. So let's not compare the the two as being realistically how the archetypes translate into the real world.

The Sith do tend to work more on what their passions are. As the saying goes "Darkness is about the individual." (Lord Richard Irvine, Force Academy, Former Head of the Dark Aspect). If we reduced the same to what Jedi are, this very line would read something like "Light is about the world". FA might go a bit further and specify it's about the Community, but given that it has been argued here a Jedi's journey may consist of working in an animal refuge, we'll say "world". After talking with Pelar this past week, I could reduce the Shadow to "Shadow is about exploration."

Yes, being a Sith can be selfish, but selfishness doesn't mean you can't be beneficial to others. Your selfishness might lead you to become a nurse (Khaos is a very good example of this). Your selfishness might lead you to become a mentor to others (Miles over at FA and OotS). Your selfishness might lead to you getting yourself in shape so you can attract a woman (I don't actually have an example of someone for that, lol). It's best to understand that selfishness is not a bad thing in and of itself.

I find it difficult to grasp that someone who is as selfish as they proclaim themselves to be would seek to be a nurse or a mentor. Neither of those goals are particularly focuses on the self - they're about taking care of or encouraging others. Both are rather thankless positions. Who honestly wants to work with blood and urine and the ill or dying in the name of themselves?