Edan`s question round: Unanswered questions of Aqua

Some of my questions, unanswered, so I put them here.. Somehow.. :blink:

~ Aqua

• Are there meditation methods that are more suited for a certain kind of practice area?
• How does one knows that the chosen meditation lesson is useful enough?
• What meditation mechanics are more useful when learning a method?
• How to build up to a more controlled state of Meditation?
• Are meditation methods dependent on emotional state?

I do not know enough about meditation to help Aqua entirely, so if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.

Are there meditation methods that are more suited for a certain kind of practice area?
What do you mean by practice area?
How does one knows that the chosen meditation lesson is useful enough?
You should consult a meditation teacher. Never go off what you hear on an internet forum. Find people who are skilled and experienced in teaching meditation, and they can guide you.
If this is impossible, then observe yourself. Is anything changing within you? What is your goal? Are you moving toward it?
What meditation mechanics are more useful when learning a method?
What do you mean by "mechanics" and "method"?
How to build up to a more controlled state of Meditation?
Very easily. Just keep doing it. Every day. Longer and more of it. Sit multiple times a day if possible. The longer you are in meditation, the more you will incorporate it. You will see the benefits even with just a moment of meditation, though. With time and practice, the benefits increase exponentially.
Are meditation methods dependent on emotional state?
Some may be. But, mine, no. In fact, I am encouraged to sit with my emotions in meditation. Observe but do not engage them. We bring with us whatever we experience to the cushion!

Each person IS DIFFRENT as night and day some.

Some are suited for sitting and posture some are not. The idea I think is to spark an interest. Find which work for you, if any.
A very possible read for you would be Allister Crowley s meditation ideas. We have a copy in the library of a few. He has a DIFFRENT way of seeing things. Very direct if you need a direct structure.

Ok I tried to answer your questions, but then I got irritated. Not because your questions are not good, useful, important questions to have, but because I have a different view of meditation altogether since I began reading "Wherever You Go, There You Are", found here: http://www.amazon.com/Wherever-You-There-Are-Mindfulness/dp/1562827693/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=.

Meditation (to me) is not so much a thing that we "do" some time during the day, adopting certain postures in certain places for a certain amount of time to attain a certain goal. It can instead be considered "mindfulness", that is to say NOT living on autopilot. Not simply "doing", but really doing. Waking up from the slumber of the idea that life is the same from one moment to the next. Waxing the car as it were. Appreciating the here, now. Knowing this, mindfulness, and therefore meditation, can and should be practiced anywhere in any circumstance. Walking up the stairs, parenting a child, cleaning a stove, taking a walk.

We've got this wonky idea that meditation is sitting down crossed-legged and clearing our mind and breathing and maybe using some beads or some music or whatever for about 10, 20, 30 minutes, or 1 hour. But these, even the sitting down and the time are aides in the practice and should not be confused for the practice itself. The practice of meditation should be a now...now...now...now thing in which you ask yourself, "Am I awake?"

I'd highly recommend you pick up a copy of Kabat-Zinn's book. It will revolutionize the way you think about meditation.

Aqua wrote: Some of my questions, unanswered, so I put them here.. Somehow.. :blink:

~ Aqua

• Are there meditation methods that are more suited for a certain kind of practice area?
• How does one knows that the chosen meditation lesson is useful enough?
• What meditation mechanics are more useful when learning a method?
• How to build up to a more controlled state of Meditation?
• Are meditation methods dependent on emotional state?

I just spoke with a doctor about this and he told me that you can lower your blood pressure by closing your eyes and breathing deep while relaxing. This was after I had stressed my heart enough to bring on the symptoms of a heart attack. This is a very real phenomenon. The method he showed me is identical to meditation. So take that for what it's worth.

I also just spoke with a psychiatrist and he told me about something called progressive muscle relaxation and a whole host of other things called: stress management, learning to breathe, visualization, creating a comfortable sleep environment, etc. This was all lumped under the category of "tips for a good night/sleep". So yeah both doctors and psychiatrists agree that the techniques employed through meditation have both physical and mental ramifications. Just go ask them yourself.

While each person may vary on a case-by-case basis, some universal truths apply. I've had to learn the hard way that meditation is essential to my survival, both mentally and physically. The hard part is working that into our daily lives so that it becomes a permanent solution and not just some fad that we drop in a few months.

Rosalyn J wrote: We've got this wonky idea that meditation is sitting down crossed-legged and clearing our mind and breathing and maybe using some beads or some music or whatever for about 10, 20, 30 minutes, or 1 hour. But these, even the sitting down and the time are aides in the practice and should not be confused for the practice itself. The practice of meditation should be a now...now...now...now thing in which you ask yourself, "Am I awake?"

Personally, I think it depends on what one is trying to achieve...

I don't think that the traditional idea of meditation itself is 'wonky', neither do I think that it is definitively not meditation...

Even the question "Am I awake" - in this scenario the question itself is still an aide...

Perhaps meditation is being one with 'now', and all conscious approaches to achieving this are aides - in which case, it does no harm really to understand the aides as being meditation and to run with the concept. It's a little like the Buddhadharma idea that 'form is empty' (emptiness) - nothing inherently exists, but in order to understand that truth we have to understand that things do exist 'conventionally'. :laugh: Our bodies do not inherently exist but if we simply say 'my body does not exist' we're going to hit a lot of problems both with understanding what exactly it is that doesn't exist and also with the practical side of, y'know...eating, drinking, washing and clothing these non-existent bodies, etc...

Likewise, perhaps meditation is not an activity that truly exists, but a state of being that some of us will not understand without first running with the concept of the activity...

Some of us - many of us, probably - are not always able to simply tap into true meditation at any given moment, and these other things that we are supposing are perhaps not meditation in and of themselves can actually be pretty helpful in furthering our meditative ability and understanding.

The 'yes, but they're not really true meditation' approach is not always conducive to understanding...sometimes it can make meditation seem more remote, inaccessible and unfathomable. I know, because it's been said to me a number of times (this 'you should just meditate every moment of your life, there's no point in sitting still' idea), and sometimes it's actually made me feel pretty small (although that might well be just me) and hasn't helped me to understand what meditation might feel like.

If someone wants to sit in disciplined meditation and feels that it will help them to develop a solid foundation - with which they may then find it easier to engage in more constant, on-the-go meditation - I'm all in favour of that.

Having said all that, I'm not sure that I'm qualified enough to answer Aqua's questions properly. :laugh: :pinch:

(Although, Aqua, I'm more than happy to chat about my thoughts on it...I'm just not quite comfortable putting my thoughts in a public arena where they might be taken to be some sort of 'expertise' when they would really be nothing of the sort!)



Edit: Also, I've been inspired to read that book - 'Wherever you go, there you are'...

Connor L. wrote: What do you mean by practice area?
What do you mean by "mechanics" and "method"?

practice area: surroundings of were you practice meditation. But I meant the effectiveness area to the mind with in meditation.
Mechanics of meditation: mechanics can be found within the method, it is how the method is build up, just like car parts (If I say it incorrect, please correct me Alan)

Rosalyn J wrote: Ok I tried to answer your questions, but then I got irritated. Not because your questions are not good, useful, important questions to have, but because I have a different view of meditation altogether since I began reading "Wherever You Go, There You Are", found here: http://www.amazon.com/Wherever-You-There-Are-Mindfulness/dp/1562827693/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=.

Meditation (to me) is not so much a thing that we "do" some time during the day, adopting certain postures in certain places for a certain amount of time to attain a certain goal. It can instead be considered "mindfulness", that is to say NOT living on autopilot.

I am thankful for your open words about how you feel about my opinion. Really appreciate that you are so open with your word choice! Hmm.. I feel that you are too irritated to see that I switch between minding aware of my surroundings the whole day, and concentrated meditation. To relax more.. I am sorry to say. I tend to switch between forms. Depending on my emotional state, that will bring me to the next quote.

Whyte Horse wrote: I just spoke with a doctor about this and he told me that you can lower your blood pressure by closing your eyes and breathing deep while relaxing. This was after I had stressed my heart enough to bring on the symptoms of a heart attack.

I also just spoke with a psychiatrist and he told me about something called progressive muscle relaxation and a whole host of other things called: stress management.

Thank you for your time to respond and to find research about my question! I do not want to have a heart attack again, but that is actually not my trouble point I try to explain. I am searching to understand how to change my meditation learning and doing, dependent to the situation I am in. I do not have stress, it is just that I do not always feel comfortable in the way I do meditation, mainly because meditation needs to flow with the situation to be of use in changing the situation. Not sure how I should manage to do that, so that is one of the reasons I asked these questions if I may speak out free.

V-Tog wrote: Personally, I think it depends on what one is trying to achieve...

I don't think that the traditional idea of meditation itself is 'wonky', neither do I think that it is definitively not meditation...

Even the question "Am I awake" - in this scenario the question itself is still an aide...

Perhaps meditation is being one with 'now'

Likewise, perhaps meditation is not an activity that truly exists, but a state of being that some of us will not understand without first running with the concept of the activity...

I know, because it's been said to me a number of times (this 'you should just meditate every moment of your life, there's no point in sitting still' idea), and sometimes it's actually made me feel pretty small (although that might well be just me) and hasn't helped me to understand what meditation might feel like.

Having said all that, I'm not sure that I'm qualified enough to answer Aqua's questions properly. :laugh: :pinch:

(Although, Aqua, I'm more than happy to chat about my thoughts on it...I'm just not quite comfortable putting my thoughts in a public arena where they might be taken to be some sort of 'expertise' when they would really be nothing of the sort!)



Edit: Also, I've been inspired to read that book - 'Wherever you go, there you are'...

Thank you for your reaction! You are more than qualified, V. :blush: I think that every person is qualified to answer my questions. I like to hear all opinions of people, we all think different about it. Saying one is not qualified would limit the possibilities and I do not like that.. much.. Ehm.. Meditation is something I tend to do always, but sometimes I just switch for comfortable reasons of emotion. Guess you are on one line with my own idea of deep personal thoughts in public areas. Happy to chat about it.

Some may have noticed that I try to keep my words as flat as possible, most of the time.. The main importance for me to not share is because I feel totally not comfortable in doing, one asks me, why are you open in your Journal? Well.. Just because I have no other option in doing I guess. Sometimes I have to, other times I feel more play area to say no.
Ehm.. Meditation is linked with the situation and the person within the situation. So I think it is of some importance to dig a little bit into it, because I feel that there are multiple forms and understandings within one single aspect of meditation. I like to learn, little bits every time, not want to haste it out.. If one can not answer my questions, I shall wait till the day comes. I have patience to wait as long as it is needed. I find it important to not rush into my questions, that is the last thing I would do, haste brings uncontrolled results.



Force shine with you all,

~ Aqua

I don't feel qualified to answer the question, but years ago I had some success with "perceiving differently" when I followed this tutorial, previously hosted on the now defunct Why Wiccans Suck website:

https://thebookoft.wordpress.com/knowledge/witchcraft-from-the-ground-up/preface/

https://youtu.be/rqoxYKtEWEc

This is a decent place to start. Keep it simple.

As shown above, I found meditation to be a "considered thought" on a subject...

And, in my time here, I spent "considered thought" on "what exactly is meditation"....

When I did this, I decided (later) that I already meditated, just not efficiently, nor realized I was doing it, :lol:...

I "meditated" on meditation!

:lol:...

So, let me take a crack at this... ...

These are just my answers, just a little preface, lol... I'm still learning, and am more than willing to incorporate new knowledge as I learn it...

Are there meditation methods that are more suited for a certain kind of practice area?

Yes, I feel, in the beginning...

When learning, it will be easier in a quiet area at first because the noise of your mind and body is more than distracting, it doesn't need the help!

And, the first attempt, a few minutes will be an eternity, lol...

I am in a pretty constant state, a "walking meditation", that really doesn't need "a place", however it was suggested I also try sitting meditation...

I'm not flexible, and "lotus sitting" causes pain, and is a distraction...

So, yes, "comfortable and quiet" while learning...

And, "not really" as practice improves...

How does one knows that the chosen meditation lesson is useful enough?

How do you you know anything?

You "feel" it...

What meditation mechanics are more useful when learning a method?

-Sitting straight, but not rigid...
-Eyes closed, but not squeezed...

How to build up to a more controlled state of Meditation?

Practice...

As I said, you'll be lucky to get more than a minute...

I usually do 10-15 minutes, but, as I said, I'm in a pretty constant state, so its a "centering" I do everybso often when I'm getting mentally neat up, lol...

Are meditation methods dependent on emotional state?

Of course...

This can be "mental noise" too...

Happy? What about? Love? "Can't stop thinking about her..."

Angry? At who? "Stupid jerk cut me off!"

Worried? What about? "Will I be able to do it?"

And, mostly, in the beginning...

"Clearing your mind" isn't wiping it clean like a chaulkboard, but rather realizing all the things you are experiencing can go on hold for 10 minutes....

++++++++++++
At least, that's my thoughts...

I hope it helps..

Thank you all for respons to my questions, not sure how it will help me. I will mind about it.

~ Aqua

I can tell you that meditation is not useful as a theoretical exercise. No use talking or thinking about it. It is understood best through experience. Practice sincerely, reflect afterwards. Being clever isn't useful here.

Cabur Senaar wrote: I can tell you that meditation is not useful as a theoretical exercise. No use talking or thinking about it. It is understood best through experience. Practice sincerely, reflect afterwards. Being clever isn't useful here.

Why not? I find talking useful, did not ask for cleverness

Connor L. wrote: How does one knows that the chosen meditation lesson is useful enough?
You should consult a meditation teacher. Never go off what you hear on an internet forum. Find people who are skilled and experienced in teaching meditation, and they can guide you.

I would disagree with this, Connor. I don't believe meditation can be taught. It can be explained and experienced, and even guided, but you cannot teach it any more than you can teach music. I can show you where to put your hands on the keyboard to make noise, but it's up to you to arrange that noise into something original if you truly want to understand it.

Are meditation methods dependent on emotional state?
Some may be. But, mine, no. In fact, I am encouraged to sit with my emotions in meditation. Observe but do not engage them. We bring with us whatever we experience to the cushion!

Meditation is very useful in emotional control. It can induce any emotion you've ever experienced, provided you consciously move yourself to that emotion. It's been very helpful for me in both my acting and my private life, where I suffer a few emotional imbalances.

[hr]

Rosalyn J wrote: Meditation (to me) is not so much a thing that we "do" some time during the day, adopting certain postures in certain places for a certain amount of time to attain a certain goal. It can instead be considered "mindfulness", that is to say NOT living on autopilot. Not simply "doing", but really doing...We've got this wonky idea that meditation is sitting down crossed-legged and clearing our mind and breathing and maybe using some beads or some music or whatever for about 10, 20, 30 minutes, or 1 hour. But these, even the sitting down and the time are aides in the practice and should not be confused for the practice itself. The practice of meditation should be a now...now...now...now thing in which you ask yourself, "Am I awake?"

I touched on this in my Journal in post #99223 , " The Problem With Meditation ." Meditation is a mindset, not a singular activity. All the tools and practices and "mechanics" we use to lead us there are just the crutches we need to walk the path.

Though I call them "crutches", there is nothing shameful about their use, and I'm not suggesting you should eschew them. I'm merely stating that they "hold us up" while we learn what meditation really is. I would encourage everyone to sample the many, many meditation methods and aides available to them. Meditation is much like language in this way. Someone who learns one or two languages knows those one or two languages, but someone who studies many languages begins to understand the underlying principles of what language is, and the rules of how it works. By studying one or two meditation methods, you might understand those methods, but by studying many, you will understand meditation.

Steam,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I would like to clarify. Maybe when I say "teacher", I am using a casual definition. What was important to me was the second part. This:

Find people who are skilled and experienced in teaching meditation, and they can guide you.

Emphasis on guide. Just like you say in your response.

I am curious though... Why is what you say anything different from math or history? Do we not also have to "arrange that" information".. "if [we] truly want to understand it?" I think we can take it farther and say that nothing can be "taught". Things can only be learned and put into practice. I believe all academic subjects become art at some point. History, math, rhetoric, all of it.

So, I think you've picked apart my words instead of understood the spirit of them. While it is on me to clarify more and be more specific, I think the meaning can be gleaned fairly easily with some thought on the receiving party's end.

As for your second comment, I think that it's wonderful what meditation can do for all aspects of our lives. I am slightly put off by the idea of engendering emotions in meditation, but I can see how that would be useful to you. Thank you for sharing that private detail.

Depends what your looking for out of it; is relaxation and self control enough, or something 'more'... say perhaps spiritual. If it's something 'more' then if an existing path has the same goal then see if they have practises and try em, if not then look at where you are and where you want to be and see what needs to change - and work on those things.

This may be a controversial opinion. But, I'm in the middle of Tolle's Power of Now (for the third or fourth time?), and there's something odd about "looking for" anything "out of it". In a sense, there isn't any such thing as different kinds of meditation. At least not from an "enlightenment" standpoint.

Granted, one could be doing something other than a mindfulness practice and have a technique for a different "kind" of meditation altogether.

I'm not sure what I'm saying. But, Tolle seems to be saying that there really is only one goal. And, everything else is "mind" or "thinking" about things. Once achieving that "no mind" as the Zen say, there is no technique left needed.

Yea I think that is integral to most types of (for want of a better word) more 'serious' meditation, but when someone starts they usually have a reason for considering doing it.

Good point.