Subatomic Worlds

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04 May 2020 16:13 - 04 May 2020 16:54 #351658 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic Subatomic Worlds

EnergyGem wrote: But the statement stands on it's own, what context do you need?

The context in which it was allegedly said. The original 1956 article does not contain the quote and I could not recover a press release from that time that did. The Nobel Lecture Dr. Reines held in 1995 also does not contain the quote. The oldest mention of the quote I found is on a website maintained by physicist Dr. Didier Verkindt, first created no later than 1996 and last updated (as of the time of writing) no later than 1999. A source for the quote is not cited, however. This is not sufficient to judge whether the quote is genuine, nor how it was meant. In isolation and at face value it's false.


I am saying that Buddha Law Cultivators and Enlightened Beings can detect things that our current scientific instruments cannot.

Prove it. Show that what you say they have detected is not made up.


If you are an open minded [sic] and receptive to new ideas and possibilities you might want to give it a read.

I'm talking to people, not books. If you have something to say, I'm all ears. If all you have is holy texts, I don't care. I'm not throwing science books all around you either (in part because I barely ever open any).


My point is that science will progress if scientists don't automatically reject findings because they don't conform to their models of reality.

I agree, though I don't see where this is going. When it comes to the matters here disputed, you haven't presented findings of them. You presented claims. Claims of things that are either not confirmed by scientific evidence, or contradicted by scientific evidence.


I'm just pointing out that something doesn't have to be peer reviewed to be a great scientific discovery.

You are right. But if you had a peer reviewed study in a respectable journal you would present it, instead of making that point. You are technically correct that peer review may not have always historically been necessary or common, but this is not something you point out on principle. You only question the necessity of peer review because to your knowledge none is on your side. Something that is necessary for a great scientific discovery is however... well the discovery itself. And having a deep think in an armchair is not how those happen. Revelation is not scientifically relevant evidence.


I don't wish to win some debate with you or win some contest. You sound like a highly intelligent chap with a firm grasp on today's scientific understandings, more so then myself. All I am saying is that there are spiritual cultivation practices that took a different path in understanding life, matter and the universe to the Western Scientific path.

Indeed. And I pointed out early on and multiple times that this is a way you could have gone on to make your religious case. You don't have to use science, you don't even have to acknowledge it, or respect it. But the instant you want to present scientific claims you open yourself to the scientific discussion. The instant you say that science confirms your beliefs, you make them subject to scientific criticism.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
Last edit: 04 May 2020 16:54 by Gisteron.

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05 May 2020 15:09 #351687 by EnergyGem
Replied by EnergyGem on topic Subatomic Worlds

The context in which it was allegedly said. The original 1956 article does not contain the quote and I could not recover a press release from that time that did. The Nobel Lecture Dr. Reines held in 1995 also does not contain the quote. The oldest mention of the quote I found is on a website maintained by physicist Dr. Didier Verkindt, first created no later than 1996 and last updated (as of the time of writing) no later than 1999. A source for the quote is not cited, however. This is not sufficient to judge whether the quote is genuine, nor how it was meant. In isolation and at face value it's false.


Well whether it is genuine or not, let's both concur that neutrinos are very very small. :)

Prove it. Show that what you say they have detected is not made up.


Many of the things Great Enlightened Beings see is beyond the detection capabilities of today's scientific instruments. Cutting edge scientific instruments are indeed impressive but they cannot compare to a person who has awakened or what they call a Buddha. The human brain is still largely a mystery to science but in various Cultivation schools they know that the brain and mind is the ultimate, most subtle and most penetrating tool to understand life, the human body and the universe. They unlock the mind through inner cultivation, the process of which is explained in depth in the book Zhuan Falun.

I'm talking to people, not books. If you have something to say, I'm all ears. If all you have is holy texts, I don't care. I'm not throwing science books all around you either (in part because I barely ever open any).


Well books were written by people and some have valuable knowledge and wisdom. :)

This book is has nothing to do with religions however. It's a very powerful Cultivation practice, you could think of it as an very ancient Eastern science that focuses on the mind, the human body and the universe in unison and from a different perspective to Western science:

"The science of ancient China was different from modern science, which comes from the West. It took a different course and brought about a very different mode of life. It’s not appropriate to judge ancient China’s science and technology with today’s ways of looking at things, for the science of ancient China went a different route, honing in on how the body, life, and universe work together."

- from Zhuan Falun, Modern Medicine and Energy Healing

I agree, though I don't see where this is going. When it comes to the matters here disputed, you haven't presented findings of them. You presented claims. Claims of things that are either not confirmed by scientific evidence, or contradicted by scientific evidence.


Those two experiments performed on Falun Dafa practitioners (although not yet peer reviewed) do show that Falun Dafa cultivation energy does tangibly exist:

www.pureinsight.org/node/189

www.pureinsight.org/node/2573

There is also a material that is left over after cultivating monks called Sarira:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aar%C4%ABra

Scientists studied this Sarira material with interesting results:

ntdin.tv/en/article/english/buddhas-toot...rreal-close-up-image

Revelation is not scientifically relevant evidence.


Many great scientific discoveries have been through a flash of inspiration or revelation though. :)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_effect

Carl Friedrich Gauss said after a eureka moment: "I have the result, only I do not yet know how to get to it."

You don't have to use science, you don't even have to acknowledge it, or respect it. But the instant you want to present scientific claims you open yourself to the scientific discussion. The instant you say that science confirms your beliefs, you make them subject to scientific criticism.


I have nothing against science. It's body of knowledge is commendable and should be respected. My only point of contention is that for science to continually progress it shouldn't discard every phenomena that seems outside of it's current understandings and lump it as 'psuedoscience'. If science allows for the research into the invisible and intangible, it may make new and exciting discoveries.

After all the universe is mostly dark matter and dark energy anyway, which is still a mystery to science. :)

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05 May 2020 20:45 - 05 May 2020 20:54 #351694 by Br. John
Replied by Br. John on topic Subatomic Worlds

Many of the things Great Enlightened Beings see is beyond the detection capabilities of today's scientific instruments. Cutting edge scientific instruments are indeed impressive but they cannot compare to a person who has awakened or what they call a Buddha. The human brain is still largely a mystery to science but in various Cultivation schools they know that the brain and mind is the ultimate, most subtle and most penetrating tool to understand life, the human body and the universe. They unlock the mind through inner cultivation, the process of which is explained in depth in the book Zhuan Falun.


Let's try this. I'll have several peti dishes each inoculated with a single type of common bacteria. We'll have one person with a medical grade microscope and you (or any Great Enlightened Being you know) use their black belt in Feng Shui or their most penetrating tool (that sounds like a title to a porn film) to perceive what is in those dishes. Each one needs only to sketch the basic shape of the bacteria. I'm willing to set this experiment up in Australia or pretty much wherever you'd like.

Tell us more about the teachings of homosexuality being condemned by gods and mixed race children being incomplete.

Yes, I've read for myself and there are teachings that explicitly contradict our Jedi Believe.

You, EnergyGem, are only here to proselytize and clearly have no interest in being a Jedi or even being an interested guest. On the highly unlikely chance I've misjudged you I'm not showing you the door, yet.

Here is an interview with Li Hongzhi in Time Magazine By WILLIAM DOWELL Monday, May 10, 1999
content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2053761,00.html

And if that's not enough here's a work in progress by Quan Zhang docs.google.com/document/d/1XULxRF-Ejkyy...Bck/edit?usp=sharing

Founder of The Order
Last edit: 05 May 2020 20:54 by Br. John.

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06 May 2020 13:27 - 06 May 2020 13:56 #351732 by EnergyGem
Replied by EnergyGem on topic Subatomic Worlds

Let's try this. I'll have several peti dishes each inoculated with a single type of common bacteria. We'll have one person with a medical grade microscope and you (or any Great Enlightened Being you know) use their black belt in Feng Shui or their most penetrating tool (that sounds like a title to a porn film) to perceive what is in those dishes. Each one needs only to sketch the basic shape of the bacteria. I'm willing to set this experiment up in Australia or pretty much wherever you'd like.


One thing about Falun Dafa is that supernatural abilities are not to be shown to prove the practice is real. The reason this is not allowed is explained is expounded upon here:

"I refrain from giving demonstrations when I teach the Fa specifically because I have explained the purpose of my going public in perfectly clear terms. Were I to give demonstrations while teaching Fa, that would be imparting an evil way. Doing it that way, people would come to learn your techniques, not the Fa. Buddha Shakyamuni similarly avoided this approach back in his day. Doing healings is fine since, after all, the workings of it can’t be seen. All that’s apparent is that the person feels better. How did the healing happen? It’s up to you to believe the whole thing or not. The person is better now, but do you believe that he is? An onlooker can’t tell whether he is still in pain. Since one’s powers of insight are still involved, doing healings is okay. Once upon a time Jesus and Buddha Shakyamuni did the same. Lao Zi was the exception. Lao Zi knew the human world to be too perilous. He hurriedly wrote his five-thousand-word treatise [on the Dao] 2 and headed out through the pass, going west."

- from Zhuan Falun Volume 2, No Demonstrations When Saving People and Teaching Fa : falundafa.org/eng/eng/html/zfl2/zfl2.htm#13

However you bought up the topic of bacteria. I found an article by a Falun Dafa disciple that talks about her meditation energy effects bacteria, an interesting read:

www.pureinsight.org/node/7507


Tell us more about the teachings of homosexuality being condemned by gods and mixed race children being incomplete.


In regards to homosexuality, it's true, Falun Dafa regards it as sinful behavior but many uprights schools of cultivation believe this to be so.

"Although gays and lesbians may practice Falun Gong, homosexual conduct is said to generate karma, and is therefore viewed as incompatible with the goals of the practice."

- from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

As for mixed race children, this is explained:

"Falun Gong's cosmology includes the belief that different ethnicities each have a correspondence to their own heavens, and that individuals of mixed race lose some aspect of this connection. Nonetheless, Li maintains that being of mixed race does not affect a person's soul, nor hinder their ability to practice cultivation. The practice does not have any formal stance against interracial marriage, and many Falun Gong practitioners have interracial children."

- from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#Social_practices

You, EnergyGem, are only here to proselytize and clearly have no interest in being a Jedi or even being an interested guest. On the highly unlikely chance I've misjudged you I'm not showing you the door, yet.


I am sharing something I thought the Jedi community would find of great interest. It is True that I have shared this material in many places. When I find something which I believe is powerful and righteous with deep insights and wisdom i feel impelled to share it with people, but if people don't want to look that's perfectly fine too, free will should always be respected.

By the way, I noticed that the forum where I created a post entitled 'Star Wars: Faint Memory Of A Highly Advanced Prehistoric Civilization?' has been down for the last few days so I'm not sure if you got a chance to check it out. If not I also posted it on a different forum, I think you would find it a really interesting read:

www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1208109/pg1

There are many similarities between Falun Dafa and Jediism. In Dafa they also believe that a force runs throughout the universe that sustains everything:

"Then just what exactly is the Way? Its highest expression is the fundamental qualities that underlie all of existence: zhen (truthfulness), shan (compassion), ren (forbearance). These are the essence of the Way. The Way is expressed differently at different levels of existence, and serves to govern each accordingly, with its expression becoming increasingly intricate at lower planes. The qualities of zhen, shan, ren are imbued in all of creation, from particles of air to stones, wood, earth, metal, and the human body. And so too are these qualities found in the “five elements” of classical Chinese thought, which are believed to make up all of existence.

Those who engage in spiritual practice will only come to know the expression of the Way unique to the realm that their attainment has brought them to; its revelations reflect the success of one’s spiritual efforts, or realm of attainment. When looked at in its entirety, the Way is enormous. But in the highest of realms it is quite simple, for its structure can be likened to that of a pyramid whereby at the very top everything can be summed up in just three words—zhen, shan, ren—while as you go downward toward the base, things get increasingly complex. A parallel can be drawn between man and the universe, as ancient Daoist thought has done. While you may be endowed with a physical body, that alone isn’t enough to make you a complete person.

You also must have other invisible elements such as disposition, temperament, personality, as well as a spirit, or soul, to be a complete and independent individual. By the same token, the universe has a Milky Way as well as other galaxies, living creatures, and water—with all such tangible facets of creation being its physical side. Yet at the same time, behind it all, it has the invisible qualities, or spirit, of zhen, shan, ren. So these qualities are imbued in the particles of anything and everything that exists, down to the very smallest of particles."


- from Zhuan Falun, The Sole Measure of Goodness: Zhen, Shan, Ren : falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_2018_1.html#3


Also compare:

The Jedi Code:

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.


to a few poems by Master Li Hongzhi:

Nothing Kept

In life, nothing sought,
In death, regretting naught;
Washing away all wrong thought,
Buddhahood, with less
adversity, is wrought.

October 20, 1991 - Hon Yin, The Grand Verses : en.falundafa.org/eng/hongyin/v1/hy.htm#Nothing%20Kept


and:

Being Human

He who is for fame resents throughout his life
He who is for profit does not know his kin
He who is for passion looks for trouble for himself
Bitter, fighting, making karma in his life

Chasing not fame, he is carefree and content
Caring not for profit, he’s a kind and righteous one
Not by passion is he moved, his heart is clear, desires few
Cultivate in kindness, virtue is accrued throughout his life

July 13, 1986, Hong Ying, The Grand Verses : en.falundafa.org/eng/hongyin/v3/hy.htm#2

And if that's not enough here's a work in progress by Quan Zhang docs.google.com/document/d/1XULxRF-Ejkyy...Bck/edit?usp=sharing


I'm not sure who Quan Zhang is but the CCP is currently viciously persecuting Falun Dafa disciples. They are torturing them and harvesting their organs. The CCP government is doing evils that even nazi Germany couldn't envisage:

en.minghui.org/cc/1/

They (meaning the CCP government) also have a massive propaganda campaign against Falun Dafa to try to undermine it:

en.minghui.org/cc/9/

The also have an 'internet water army':

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Water_Army

The whole worlds actually respects and supports Falun Dafa apart from that demonic fiend known as the CCP government:

"By April 2001, Mr. Li Hongzhi had received over 340 awards and proclamations from Australia, Canada, China (before crackdown), Japan, Russia, and the U.S. in recognition of the extraordinary contributions to people's spiritual and physical health, and to freedom of belief in the world. These include certificates of recognition from several governmental bodies in the United States – including Honorary Citizenship awarded by The State of Georgia and city of Atlanta.

On 14 March 2001, The Freedom House bestowed Li Hongzhi and Falun Gong with an International Religious Freedom Award for the advancement of religious and spiritual freedom at a ceremony in the United States Senate. In the same year, Li was ranked the most powerful communicator in Asia by Asiaweek magazine "for his power to inspire, to mobilize people and to spook Beijing". He was nominated for the 2001 Sakharov Prize by over 25 members of European Parliament, was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2000 and 2001, and in 2013 was ranked by Foreign Policy Magazine as one of the 500 most powerful people in the world."


source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi#Life_abroad
Last edit: 06 May 2020 13:56 by EnergyGem.

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07 May 2020 05:30 #351781 by Cheb
Replied by Cheb on topic Subatomic Worlds
I think that you have not or do not want to take into account the remarks of our comrades.

You don't give your point of view on Fallun Dafa but you sell it. The subject has been interesting but I think Gisteron and John show you and explained that your arguments are not concrete.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. Putting forward arguments which are in reality based on almost nothing and which are mostly contradicted by certified texts will not advance all of this.

As John says, we Jedi believe in certain things and the selection of race, gender or other is not one of them. I think it would be wiser to end this exchange and suggest you repost a little later with a better file. By then the tensions will have subsided and perhaps other facts will have appeared.

Good day everyone, May the Force be with you.
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