[Warning Possible Spoilers] Force Awakens discussion (Post viewing) (Warning Spoilers)

First, I didnt like that this movie was largely a wash,rinse, and repeat of episode 4 in so many ways. I feel tht Luke defeating the empire only to ultimately fail in bringing back the Jedi seems...Well, I dont know, it makes episode 6 seem sort of pointless, as if largely nothing was accomplished.

I also didnt like Kylo Ren being defeated by someone who has never even held a Lightsaber or used the Force before, or how he was beating on his wound like a moron. I did like other aspects about him, and I wonder idily if Rey isnt his sister, as twins commonly give birth to twins, they have the same hair color, strong in the Force.

Still, I was thinking, if they were going to white wash the EU, that they would have had something better than episode 4 2.0

Okay. First of all, yes it was almost more of a remake than a sequel. The plot was basically exactly the same, that was evident within the first five minutes. But, it was a great story 30 years ago and it's still a great story now. This time some of the characters got changed around and it was enough of a shift that it was still it's own movie.

Second, it did lack a lot of the mysticism that we all love from the first one (when I say first one I mean Episode 4) but I think that 8 will more than make up for it. We should get to see both Ren and Rey training and that should be awesome.

I will say that the weakest point for me was Kylo Ren. Well...It was really Ben Solo. When he was wearing the mask and acting as Kylo Ren I thought he was pretty awesome. Every time he took of the mask and seemed to waver he became...whiney. Like Anikan as opposed to Vader. After thinking about this and noticing the mask on vs. mask off I think that all of that was on purpose. That made it more okay for me. I am hoping that when he's done with his training we see a more resolute Kylo Ren, more purposeful. In 7 he acted more like he was just mad at his father rather than a true villain.

On a final personal note I want Rey to have my children. :woohoo: :blush:

Yes, but, it being pretty much the same story... Again, what was accomplished with Episode 6? Nothing. So what you blew up the Death Star....again, it seems the empire is content to keep making huge things that blow stuff up. Luke accomplished nothing in defeating the Sith in that well, the Jedi revival went nowhere, and there is a group of Darkside force users, one with a master and apprentice. Sure, it was a great story 30 years ago, and sure, its fine now, except where is the progression of story?

The weakest point for me is that we are back to square one with everything. Sure, some peoples roles got a bit of a shift, but at the same time, not really, and it leaves us with no real character development in the older characters, and the new ones, well, whats left for them except a repeat?

I think that the next movie will focus on there training(Kylos and Reys) but that is keeping in line with Empire...So, where will we see an actual difference in the lines of story that show that the last 30 years people didnt just sit around wit there thumbs in there butts?

All and all, I thought it was a great action film that rested on the bones of an old story.

So what you blew up the Death Star....again, it seems the empire is content to keep making huge things that blow stuff up.

... when I saw it I was like 'does the Empire never learn!'

If you take the movie purely as a Action Film then yea....It was great I loved the imagery and especially loved the trademark Disney Orchestra harmonizing with the film. One of the great things about Disney is their use of music to set the Mood. I think it was very well done for Force Awakens. The Colors, designs, aliens, even the hidden Easter eggs were well played. So if all you want is Lots of Battles, Explosions and Action Packed Adventure. Then absolutely! This is a show to see on the big screen. How else should action be watched after all?

No immersion or story ground work. There are so many things that got thrown at us with very little explanation as to why they are there, how they got there, and who they are.

Poe, for example : Great Character, quirky, fun, charming - Yet we know next to nothing about him and this unknown strange dude somehow comes into possession of the most important peace of information in the galaxy and is later revealed to be nothing more than some fighter pilot.....That's about as much as we get concerning this new guy.

Captain Phasma, She's a super cool Sorm Trooper.....Did I mention this trooper is a She? With Cool Armor? Thats....really about all we know about her though. Like....literally there is no story about her at all.....what makes her so special to stand out the way she does?

Finn, A defected Storm Trooper! No, wait...A Jedi! No, Wait....A Sanitation Officer....Wait....This is his very first time on the field? Why would they put a Sanitation Officer with zero experience out onto the opening battle field we get introduced to within the first few minuets of the movie, seemed to be quite an important mission...wouldn't they want well trained soldiers on that mission? Not waist cleaners?

So all that aside he suddenly gets the case of the conscious and defects....

Not even a day or two out of the base he becomes a Love Sick puppy towards our next introduced character...

As the story unfolds we find out that Finn is a fantastic Saber Practitioner (with no training)

That's about it though. It doesn't help that the actor behind this character keeps boasting about political purposes against racism and how he is going to "Stick it to them" and other insanely vain comments we see him making all over Media....It really makes it feel, to me, that this character was only put in this movie to appease the Political Crowd instead of working to give him a creative role that we can all relate to and love.

Rey, Ok....Yea. Rey is cute Props on that! But like Khaos said....I don't really like that she just somehow becomes a professional and using force powers and wielding lightsabers defeating a major Sith Apprentice thats Clearly had much more training than she has. So now apparently Jedi don't have to work hard at being a Jedi.....You just get to have your "Awakening" and your now a bad ass.

In my story writing realms we call that.......God Modding. :dry:

Super Destroyer - As others have said.....what are we gaining in this movie? It feels very open ended, very loose, and very forced.....

So.....story Wise.... Meh. I did not enjoy it at all.

Action wise however. I thought it was great.....for a one time thing.

It seems neither side learned much of anything. I imagine there will be a second one, or something bigger, or different for episode 8, though techniclly, this isnt supposed to be a trilogy, more, its a series of ever releasing movies. Still, even so, they did not have to regurgitate episode 4 to do so.

"History tends to repeat itself"

I think this movie was intentionally consoling this saying, in whatever way it might tend to be true for our real world. Because of this, I have no significant objections toward the movie concerning this. Patterns in plots like these are what contribute to making this universe interesting, even fascinating, because of all the different ways we can link things together, parallel events, etc, and it helps the world of star wars stay familiar and still dynamic at the same time. If one attempts to embrace the potential of this pattern, we might find a lot more about the plot and the characters to connect with.

Like I was saying in another thread, the pacing of this movie is a lot lighter than the OT. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, because it is simply updating the methods of star wars storytelling but using the same devices, and that is something I kinda find myself appreciating. Some feel it is too "action packed". I don't quite know how I feel about that. The pacing lends itself a lot to the "action genre" approach that J. J. is known for using in his reboots (Star Trek being one quite obvious example). I'm not sure though that the flavor or placement of action in this movie takes enough away from genuine plot development to really hinder the writing for either the producers nor the fanbase in general.

Some were very dissapointed that Han dies in this movie, mainly due to their view that Han was a frontman for the franchise and losing him would be like the Beatles losing Paul McCartney. I think I feel more grateful though that we got to see him at least one more time at all instead of the writers granting Ford's wish to be killed off in VI. We get a chance for the mantle of Han's legacy to be handed down perhaps to Finn (if that is where the plot goes with this). Like this, there are many instances of "passing the torch" from the old generation to the new, which is essentially one of the founding purposes of the new trilogy at all.

As for Kylo Ren, I will admit I didn't see it coming that he would be Han and Leia's son. But I think that is because my view of Han made it difficult for me to really see him (the scoundrel pirate that he is) as now this loving father figure. Realistically, it's not unreasonable or anything, but I guess I became so attached to Han's personality as he was in the OT, that it just felt kind of off-place seeing him in a condition that didn't reflect that familiar personality. So the whole family plot between him, Leia, and Ben didn't really convince me much. Maybe it will grow on me after a few more viewings of the film.

I'm very happy to know that Rey is the Jedi in contrast to the marketing approach making it look as if it would be Finn. It certainly makes more sense, although, I find myself curious as to if Finn could possibly find himself in tune as well later in the new trilogy (there were some teasing hints at the idea near the beginning of the film). Some suspect she has blood ties to the Skywalkers - she just may, but I'm not up for jumping on speculations just yet.

Some have shown disappointment about Kylo Ren's character not being as fully powerful in persona as Darth Vader was. I feel this was necessary, however, to support his character as Han's son, who is not yet of full age, and gives him more potential to create more connections to Rey in various more equal ways. He was in this position of power mainly due to the fact that he was pretty much the only "force wizard" openly known in the galaxy to those under him (other than General Hux). Some wonder how he was beat by a girl who had never even wielded a lightsaber before - I don't. Kylo Ren was actually very rusty on his lightsaber training, he had been out of practice, being the only one around who even wielded one. On top of this, Rey connected herself pretty clearly into the Force through precisely what Yoda explained to Luke: "When you're at calm, at peace". She had heard a lot about the force already, and had felt it more and more through the movie that she was in tune - she simply applied what she realized in herself about it. As for Kylo Ren, his imperfections of his youth opens up a lot of things the writers can do with his character as he grows and develops the trilogy's plot.

People tend to praise Poe Dameron a lot in this movie. I did enjoy him, but he didn't give off the size of impression that many people keep going on about. He didn't stick out quite as much as others made it out, but I can certainly see him and Finn creating a memorable bond with the potential to drive the trilogy's plot in a lot of very significant ways. I'm excited to see where that goes.

The practical effects were excellent and spot on, though they did create an unfortunate contrast against the few scenes and characters that were actually CGI. This includes Maz Kanata, who is fully CGI. I did very much enjoy Maz, but her visuals were a bit on the prequel side. Thankfully, she was not a major part of the movie because of this. The same goes for Snoke, who I feel could have easily been non-CGI had they applied a little more creativity to his looks.

Overall, I very much enjoyed the movie, though it did feel like "Just another movie" because of the less epic pacing than the OT had. However, with additional viewings, that may change, as well as with future installments of the trilogy. It has potential and is certainly better than the prequels to me, by leaps and bounds, though not really as historically impacting as ESB, which is still my favorite SW film of all time.

Regarding the supposed lack of character development, Lawrence Kasdan makes this very good point:

Everyone who has seen these movies thinks about ‘I am your father …’ and ‘There is another …’ But neither of those things were in [1977’s original] Star Wars. Star Wars didn’t say Luke was the son of Vader. Star Wars didn’t say Leia was the sister of Luke. You didn’t understand what these references were: the Empire, dark times, Clone Wars. There were these things that were discussed that don’t get explained. George [Lucas] dropped you into a story and respected you to infer everything necessary to understand what you need to know… Can this movie actually also hold, ‘And Rey is this … And Finn is that … And this is where Poe is from …’ This is the first of a series. There is a story to be told. And it will be.

A bit confused that people think Rey being able to use Force powers is just an unintended plot hole... I mean, for a start we know some Force users do spontaneously come by them, a la Anakin's pod racing expertise... but the bigger thing here is hey, Rey can do this stuff we know only JEDI can do (not just Force users in general). So who is she? How does she know about it? It's not a plot hole... it's the ongoing plot :huh:

The awakening.. Kylo, who isn't yet finished with his training, can stop a blaster bolt mid flight. He can extract information from the mind of others using only the Force. Even Vader couldn't do that (think of Leia's interrogation). The Force itself seems more powerful, those who can use it seem more adept. The FORCE Awakens... not Rey Awakens. Kylo doesn't necessarily understand that, in what he says... remember, he looks to Snoke for guidance about the Force still, he's not an authority on it. He's basically a kid still.

Also, Kit what makes you think Finn is supposed to be a Jedi? He holds a lightsaber, barely survives a battle with a stormtrooper, holds his own against a dark sider who is injured and hasn't completed his training for about... 30 seconds? before getting his ass handed to him. He also fought the melee stormy and held his own... suggesting he had melee training. Also why does Phasma stand out? She's the boss. She's also part of an ongoing story, I'm willing to bet the treatment Finn handed her will result in a personal vendetta later on... but then, she let down the shields easily, so maybe she's a rogue agent in another way?

Really I feel most of the criticism I've seen here is that the plot threads are incomplete... which is a bit strange, as we know this is the first part of a trilogy. At least. Do people criticise Empire because we don't know what happens to the Rebellion, to Han...?

WHO IS Salacious Crumb? Boba Fett? Admiral Ackbar? Greedo? Well uh... they're minor characters, who play a part in moving the plot along. *shrug*

Some wonder how he was beat by a girl who had never even wielded a lightsaber before - I don't. Kylo Ren was actually very rusty on his lightsaber training, he had been out of practice, being the only one around who even wielded one.

Well, not quite, aside from the fact that he clearly has a master and peers to train with and was once trained by Luke, and was apparently good enough to wipe out the Jedi who were there that Luke was beginning to form tells me he is at least adept.Much more then Rey any way you slice it. By that Logic, Darth Vader should have been as crappy, but clearly wasnt.

Khaos wrote: Well, not quite, aside from the fact that he clearly has a master and peers to train with and was once trained by Luke, and was apparently good enough to wipe out the Jedi who were there that Luke was beginning to form tells me he is at least adept.Much more then Rey any way you slice it.

And he had been shot, and he wanted Rey to become his Apprentice. We don't know that he wiped out all Jedi, and if he did we don't know that he did so with a saber.

Rey also clearly has a lot of experience fighting with melee weapons, shown throughout. For all we've seen she might be more experienced than Kylo Ren. We have no idea how many duels he's fought, mostly we saw him deflecting blaster bolts... and he still got shot.

I will say, that I did like Kylo Rens saber in the way it sounded and looked. Not the cross guard, but unstable. I do wonder if he will make a new one after he completes his training. Or if Rey will construct a staff considering her original melee weapon.

Also, who the hell is Snoke? I mean, sure, another Dark Force user, but apparently as powerful at least as Palpatine? Dont know, but it did seem strange to me that he wasnt all that concerned about the Starkiller Base blowing up.

I hope Ren doesnt have to get a respirator or anything, but at least now he has a reason to where the mask. There clearly not Sith, at least in the sense of no yellow eyes, etc. Nor do they need to be the only Force using group that uses the Dark side. Though of course again they could be, i mean,who the hell is Snoke?

Why does Luke now have a metal hand? Also, if he is in hiding, he probably shouldnt dress like a Jedi... Those robes are a dead giveaway.

I would like to see Rey use a saber staff as well. That would be good fun.

I was hoping Fin would be a Jedi also, but it seems not to be.

That final scene was shot in Ireland. It seems I now have another reason to go. What a lovely place!

I am looking forward to seeing it again. I thorooughly enjoyed it. I think my favorite thing was the reluctance to start the journey for both Finn and Rey. Poe was sort of a hero's hero, already fun and figured out. It was a joy to watch Fin and Rey dragged forward by their own moral imperatives.

One of the major obstacles for me in enjoying this film is that it didn't have Lucas' signature cinematography feel to it. It was distinctly Abrams sans lens flare (thank the gods). Even the Millenium Falcon interior, which had been painstakingly reconstructed, didn't quite feel like the freighter Chewie and Han used to smuggle goods around under the noses of the Empire. It was hard to get over because it completely changed the feel of the film.

Another obstacle was the pacing of the film. Lucas wasn't one to shy away from slow, emotional development moments even if they were poorly written. Abrams doesn't really have that. The scene where Finn realizes he isn't a mindless killing machine happened so fast that I wasn't quite sure what made Finn different from the rest.

However, I did like it.

I've heard people complain that they didn't understand how Kylo Ren could possibly have been beaten by Rey, but if you pay attention you'll notice that Kylo Ren is an undisciplined child. Although Vader was prone to punishing failure with a Force hug around the throat, Kylo Ren throws a full-blown temper tantrum (slicing the control panel). It would appear to me that since falling to the Dark Side, Kylo Ren hasn't really been trained much at all. He's got a lot of raw potential and carries with him the emotional baggage to fuel his Dark Side tendencies, but he's also secretly tortured by his desire for reconciliation with his father.

Rey on the other hand is learning to stop running from her destiny. She spent most of the film running from it while simultaneously awaiting the return of her parents. By the time she faces off with Kylo Ren she has become less afraid of who she is and begins to embrace her connection to the Force. You'll notice her technique with the lightsaber is all thrusting, which made it much more believable to me than Finn's style which demonstrated way more finesse than I would expect from who has never used a lightsaber before nor is he Force-sensitive.

All told, this film was magnificent in comparison to the prequels, but is quite obviously not Lucas's Star Wars. It also had the impossible task of setting up the storyline for several movies without being so vague that there was hardly any content. I look forward to what comes next in the franchise.

I seen the movie on Thursday, opening night. I am going to see it again tomorrow. I think after seeing some of the posts here, it will allow me to look at things in a different perspective and perhaps focus on other things.

Remember it is difficult to fully understand a movie and its plot in just one viewing. It is once we talk about it that we can bounce ideas off each other and get a better grasp of the movie. I originally didn't like it as a stand-alone movie as much as some of the other ones, but remembering that it is just the first in a series of movies, it was pretty good. I look forward to seeing the next ones.

It is also important to recognize that Star Wars is not a cult movie anymore. They didn't write or make this movie just for the serious fans but for many people. That could be a good or bad thing depending on which side you fall on, but the reality is they geared it for the larger base. I am sure it would be different if it was made specifically for a cult following.

I think Proteus, Jamie, and TZB made some great points about some of the "hole" in the movie.

http://www.tor.com/2015/12/21/star-wars-the-force-awakens-spoiler-review/

I actually missed the first twenty minutes of the film because my best friend hit a deer and I needed to help get her home. We had bought tickets days ago and I was pretty excited. I have to say I was really impressed with the Internet as a whole that many people did not post spoilers. Usually when a movie comes out they are full of them.

My thoughts echo everyone here. Being a trained sword fighter I was pretty put off that two people with no saber training were able to use a saber proficiently against someone who clearly did have training (albeit not very good training) however seeing a Storm trooper use a type of energy staff I could almost stretch belief into Finn having some kind of exposure to that.

I did have a favorite moment though and one thing I liked about this movie versus the previous was a stronger female lead characters. It's the moment when Rey and the rest of the fleet come home after destroying the planet Death Star. Everyone else is celebrating as Rey looks on emotionally destroyed. Leia sees her and knows. She knows exactly what Rey is feeling and walks up to her and just hugs her. Does not say a word, just empathizes with her while everyone else is happy and cheering. Those two women there together. Leia is in essence passing her torch right there. To me that was the most Jedi moment in the movie. Not Luke standing there on a cliff looking all scraggly and having had abandoned the Galaxy to his screw ups.

That moment was very touching for me and also very relatable.