[Science] - Free will could all be an illusion

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08 May 2016 19:39 - 08 May 2016 20:00 #240510 by OB1Shinobi
i was reading about self-talk yesterday and it occurred to me that we do have some bit of actual choice when it comes to what we say to ourselves about our circumstances

which may not seem much but it actually makes a pretty big difference

like if i dont get the promotion at work i can choose to say "i get screwed over every time, i hate my job, i hate my life, i hate the unfairness of the world"

i can also choose to say "i didnt get it this time, but that doesnt mean i cant. let me find out why i didnt get it and see what i can do to address that so that i will get the promotion next time. i made it this far in life and in my career, i will keep working hard and trusting myself and i will make it further"

or whatever

we talk to ourselves about ourselves regardless (that part isnt a choice)

we do have some degree of freedom in what exactly we choose to say

People are complicated.
Last edit: 08 May 2016 20:00 by OB1Shinobi.
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09 May 2016 06:35 #240543 by Gisteron
If there had to be a choice, and you can eliminate enough parties you can conclude that it must lie with some subset of the remaining ones, but that anybody has any choice in any matter, in the sense that choice itself is an actual reality in the first place, that is not actually a given yet. I'm not saying it definitely doesn't exist - I couldn't for then I'd have to understand what I'd mean by that; rather, I'm saying before we can discuss who has what kind of choice we should establish what having a choice means and how we tell it from not having any. The fact that currently nobody can directly and intentionally force us to think one thing and not another (a matter of time, in my opinion) does not mean that we do ourselves must have a choice in what we say to ourselves, what ever that means. And what ever we say on the day we can remote-control each other's brains will also have to be rather awkward if today we declare that die Gedanken sind frei.

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09 May 2016 13:33 #240561 by Jestor

What about the idea of free will is so plausible as to put the burden of proof on those doubting it?


As we learned in life, (and the IP points out the lesson for those who are unaware of the lesson), sometimes we understand something, by learning what it is not...

So, I think the authors of this study, which I have not read either, I am simply surmising their intent from my own curiosity and musings, are merely testing to see IF it exists in ways in which they can...

Whichever way they'd set out to prove, that it does or does not exist, they are trying to come to one stand or another, and then will have to hold that stance against those who will inevitably test their hypothesis...


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09 May 2016 15:19 #240578 by OB1Shinobi
it does seem self evident that i have at least the free will to get up and walk to the next room or to stay sitting here at this table - if i wanted to i could choose to walk to te next state even

i cannot "free will" my legs to grow back or "free wil" my adhd to chill tfo, these things are biological and exist at a level beyond personal control

so there are certain of my motives which are out of my control, and its arguable that if the motive is powerful enough, like the adhd, maybe, then the effort to achieve it is pretty much irresistable

adhd may not be the best example but lets just say that our biology provdes irresistable motive in certain instances

and then if the motive itself is out of ones control, and the motive was of sufficient strength as to be irresistable, then in that instance there was no real choice - no free will in the matter

when it comes to stress, everyone has a breaking point

there is im sure a definite limit for each person in response to any particular kind of stress where even one more "unit" would be the proverbial straw that broke the camels back

and at the most basic level of hard biology, self talk may not have much effect on where that limit is

but in terms of an individuals self limitations limitations, i dont have any studies at hand but theres a well accepted correlation between positive self talk and the ability to function under stress

to the point that the same individual, under the same circumstances, can handle stress more effectively, which is to say can perform a given task more effectively under stress when they understand the importance of self talk and know how to regulate it, and consciously choose to regulate it

self talk is something that has a strong level of routine associated with it

we tend to repeat the same things to ourselves regularly, and we tend to repeat the same kinds of things to ourselves in the circumstances of our lives

its automatic for most of us that we talk to ourselves, and once weve established a pattern for the type of things we say, that pattern kicks in automatically, and its kind of a script that we replay with only superficial adjustments

so we dont really seem to have a choice about the pattern being there, and we dont have a choice about that it will affect us, and to some extent we already have a script which we automatically start running, like a program on a computer , and the main themes of that script are already in place

where we have some free will is in that we can introduce new elements into that script, through mindfulness and repitition

theres definitely a moment of choice in many instances of stress where we can choose the general theme of the script we tell ourselves

if that is free will or not i dont know, i guess it depends on how we want to define free will, but i know, or i believe rather, from my own experience that there is a moment where things can go either way, and maybe i dont have control over WHY i choose one way over another, but ive certainly had - and continue to have the experience of realizing that there was/is a choice for me in how i to talk to myself about whats going on, and that choice makes a difference in my responses

People are complicated.
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09 May 2016 15:46 #240583 by
The only problem I saw with that study is that it assumed that it is impossible to actually see into the future. If only a few of the subjects were subconsciously able to see into the future using some mechanism that science has not yet discovered, they would tend to make the correct choice more often.
I guess, since science is only about observable phenomena, then it is appropriate that they did not include "fantasy abilities" such as precognition or telepathy in their interpretation of the results. I think Rupert Sheldrake might have something to say about this.

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09 May 2016 23:16 - 10 May 2016 00:03 #240637 by OB1Shinobi
sorry for the long arse post

the short version of this is that we all have established patterns of self talk which basically just flip themselves on throughout the day and under different circumstances, we probably cant change the fact that our personalities create these patterns and we dont so much just choose to erase the old pattern as much as that we can choose to introduce new elements into the existing patters which eventually will produce new patterns, which will eventually produce new behaviors

which actually isnt saying any more than i did the first time i mentioned it

ive been working to keep my posts from getting too wordy lately but i guess this last time i just couldnt help myself ;-)

OB1Shinobi wrote: it does seem self evident that i have at least the free will to get up and walk to the next room or to stay sitting here at this table - if i wanted to i could choose to walk to te next state even

i cannot "free will" my legs to grow back or "free wil" my adhd to chill tfo, these things are biological and exist at a level beyond personal control

so there are certain of my motives which are out of my control, and its arguable that if the motive is powerful enough, like the adhd, maybe, then the effort to achieve it is pretty much irresistable

adhd may not be the best example but lets just say that our biology provdes irresistable motive in certain instances

and then if the motive itself is out of ones control, and the motive was of sufficient strength as to be irresistable, then in that instance there was no real choice - no free will in the matter

when it comes to stress, everyone has a breaking point

there is im sure a definite limit for each person in response to any particular kind of stress where even one more "unit" would be the proverbial straw that broke the camels back

and at the most basic level of hard biology, self talk may not have much effect on where that limit is

but in terms of an individuals self limitations limitations, i dont have any studies at hand but theres a well accepted correlation between positive self talk and the ability to function under stress

to the point that the same individual, under the same circumstances, can handle stress more effectively, which is to say can perform a given task more effectively under stress when they understand the importance of self talk and know how to regulate it, and consciously choose to regulate it

self talk is something that has a strong level of routine associated with it

we tend to repeat the same things to ourselves regularly, and we tend to repeat the same kinds of things to ourselves in the circumstances of our lives

its automatic for most of us that we talk to ourselves, and once weve established a pattern for the type of things we say, that pattern kicks in automatically, and its kind of a script that we replay with only superficial adjustments

so we dont really seem to have a choice about the pattern being there, and we dont have a choice about that it will affect us, and to some extent we already have a script which we automatically start running, like a program on a computer , and the main themes of that script are already in place

where we have some free will is in that we can introduce new elements into that script, through mindfulness and repitition

theres definitely a moment of choice in many instances of stress where we can choose the general theme of the script we tell ourselves

if that is free will or not i dont know, i guess it depends on how we want to define free will, but i know, or i believe rather, from my own experience that there is a moment where things can go either way, and maybe i dont have control over WHY i choose one way over another, but ive certainly had - and continue to have the experience of realizing that there was/is a choice for me in how i to talk to myself about whats going on, and that choice makes a difference in my responses


People are complicated.
Last edit: 10 May 2016 00:03 by OB1Shinobi.

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11 May 2016 19:08 #240864 by OB1Shinobi
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/a-neuroscience-finding-on-free-will.html

"Neuroscience and Free Will Are Rethinking Their Divorce"

Warning: Spoiler!

People are complicated.

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12 May 2016 04:36 #240912 by Gisteron
See, this is what disgusts me so much about science media. It never reports the actual research, but instead grossly mischaracterizes it in as many ways as it can get away with and then goes on sensationalizing their own conclusions without any hint of a consideration of the study's actual findings.

The actual researchers wrote: To summarize, our results suggest that humans can still cancel or veto a movement even after onset of the RP. This is possible until a point of no return around 200 ms before movement onset. However, even after the onset of the movement, it is possible to alter and cancel the movement as it unfolds.

The paper - which as a matter of exceptional courtesy the article bothers linking to - makes clear on the onset that they are were triggering the veto by another input. That is as of yet of course the only way to test anything like this for if they gave the subjects "a choice" they'd have no control, no means to correlate the results with pretty much anything. Nothing about either the methods or the results implies anything about either the existence or the extent of free will because - and I will keep insisting on this - free will is neither testible nor even defined. Therefore no study can, even in principle get any closer to a statement about it, nor is any of them that could stand any peer scrutiny attempting to. Not only that, but it turns out there is even a non-zero time after which what has been decided by the brain seconds ago can no longer be cancelled, implying quite the opposite of free agency.
Popular science media cares about clicks though, not about facts, but for any of us who are either interested or versed in neuroscience, the study is available unabridged and for free for public review at the Journal website itself:
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/4/1080.full

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12 May 2016 14:49 #240928 by OB1Shinobi
well, its an interpretation by the author fair enough, but the idea that i got from it was that 1 - we choose to act then 2 - we choose to cancel the first choice

iow not only do we have a window for making the choice to begin with but we also have a window for changing our minds

i agree that the lack of definition for "free will" makes the topic --- difficult

is there something particular that you think of when you say it?

to me its something like "the recognition of available options and the ability to choose between them" or maybe "the ability to recognize potential outcomes, choose one which is preferable, develop steps to achieve it, and follow those steps"

i dont know how scientifically solid that it, but i think its heading in the right direction

People are complicated.
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12 May 2016 18:50 #240960 by Gisteron
Honestly, I try not to settle with a specific definition. Words don't have meanings so much as usages in my opinion, and I am willing to consider a given definition for the duration of the discussion. It is then not that I do not acknowledge choice by any means. Free will in the sense of the capacity to think about options and to end up pursuing one, multiple or none of them afterwards is something I think many should have difficulty to deny, setting aside just how free "free" really is. Free will in the sense that there is some kind of "me", some fundamental essence of my person that is to any part something other than an outcome of chemical processes governed strictly by the laws of nature (which I do stress are not necessarily deterministic), actively tampering with aforementioned chemistry, now that is something I have yet to see some indication of. I am not saying that I could make any sense of it, if I had, nor what an indication of this would be like... But for now we have nothing of the sort nor do things look like this is about to change soon. It would be most exciting, to put it mildly, if it did, however, and I'd be most curious to learn about it.

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12 May 2016 22:43 #240982 by
Sam Harris has actually published some work on this subject that I've found interesting. I'd recommend his book "Free Will" if you haven't read it.

The point I think really boils down to a combination of the problem of inception and external influences.

If it's cold you put on a sweater. Did you choose to put on the sweater? Why? Was it your past experience with being cold? Why did you choose a sweater and not turning up the thermostat? Why was that the best option? Where did the idea that you were cold come from in the first place? Was that a choice you made?

If we really analyze human action it can be hard to see what was a choice and what was simply a reaction to something else.
At what point are we just reacting based on experience?

Maybe a more important question is not is it really a free choice, but what experiences and training are we giving our brains so that they respond in a certain way? If we train ourselves to respond calmly to stressful situations it becomes easier over time. It's not necessarily free will to be calm, as much as we programmed ourselves to respond in that way. We can understand that our actions have consequences and if we desire a certain set of consequences then we program ourselves to react in a particular way to bring about that set of consequences. We still have the ability to effect change on the environment around us based on our ability to analyze past consequences and predict future ones.

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12 May 2016 23:17 #240983 by
But training is meant to prepare our bodies and minds for different situations, so we can decide which course is best in the least amount of time. When an animal has the ability to reason, they can then choose a best course. I see it in the training of dogs. Some dogs have to be trained until they do something automatically the same every time, no matter what. Then there are some smart dogs that will intelligently disobey. A dog you tell to come, refusing because there is a danger in the way, then that dog finds the unforseen "other way around" do get to you, because, you know, he's really wanting to obey.

This is what you would be looking for in a free will experiment. Telling a subject to do one thing, and them intelligently doing something else. It is those people that think outside the box that (I think) prove we have free will.

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13 May 2016 11:27 #241000 by Gisteron
And yet what made them think or act outside of the box? And what made the box? If someone acts differently than expected, does that mean that there was some sort of will tinkering with their brains or may it be that our expectations were based on insufficient information? I am way too fallible to assume that I could not have simply miscalculated and instead something other than the physically necessary went on. A suspension of natural law to me sounds far less believable than human error on my own part.
In the end it boils down what we mean by free will. We can mean the ability to act in unexpected or seemingly unintuitive ways, and then any example of it would be... well, an example of it. The statement that free will is a reality would become something of a triviality at that point, and I reckon many would not say that this is all they mean by the effectively defunct term.
Those who read Sam Harris' Free Will will recognize my reasoning as heavily influenced by it. Yet, in all fairness, Sam does presume a specific definition of free will, one that is so strict as to require some kind of implied supernatural component and to make a case against that is about as easy as to make a case in favour of reasoned decisions. Disagreement then really boils down to false equivocation. The kind of free will that does not seem to exist is not the same as the kind of free will that is borderline undeniable and we are doing the discussion something of a disservice by referring to both as "free will" when what we mean are so different things.

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13 May 2016 12:47 #241007 by Jestor
No summary on his definition?

;)

tease... ;)

I think the idea of what we are trying to discuss, is as 'loose" (i know that doesnt set right with you, lol) as the idea of what we mean by "destiny" or "predestination"....

These are always the two competing ideas in my melon...

You are right, (obviously, ;)), it may never be known, and it doesnt really matter, but I find the internal wrestling match fun, and the discussion equally so...

I would say most of us argue from personal definitions, thinking we are all sorta similar in our understanding, but, trying to define this, to come to a common denominator, likens back to your and my discussion on 'faith'... I notice a similar 'vein' in certain conversations of mine, and am noticing it in others as I keep watching, and that is "we only look to find a common denominator to discuss a topic, when it suits us", and instead, we should always agree on a common denominator before we begin...

"Set the terms" of the "debate", lol...

Back on topic...;

My personal definition would follow along with OB1's; "the recognition of available options and the ability to choose between them" or maybe "the ability to recognize potential outcomes, choose one which is preferable, develop steps to achieve it, and follow those steps"

Versus my definition of "the lack of free will" or as I have always referred to it, "predestination", which is "the idea that everything already has a destiny laid out, and we are moving toward it..."

:)


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13 May 2016 14:09 #241011 by Gisteron
So what if some things are generated randomly and are neither chosen by agents nor are predestined? It would neither fall under free will nor under lack thereof, yet it is at least not on the surface internally contradictory. So it must either be a third category or a part of at least one of the others. Then of course we need to decide whether these categories have any overlap with each other. It would seem, unless we define them as disjoint, that an awareness and conscious decision, for instance, can still be the part of a predestined fate or a result of random influences in part or in full...

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13 May 2016 15:05 #241018 by

Jestor wrote: My personal definition would follow along with OB1's; "the recognition of available options and the ability to choose between them" or maybe "the ability to recognize potential outcomes, choose one which is preferable, develop steps to achieve it, and follow those steps"

Versus my definition of "the lack of free will" or as I have always referred to it, "predestination", which is "the idea that everything already has a destiny laid out, and we are moving toward it..."

:)


I would agree to those definitions. I would add to the first one that we do that independently of any predetermination. I would only add that because one could say that even in a world that is predetermined we might feel as though we are making choices when they are actually predetermined.

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13 May 2016 15:16 #241020 by Jestor
Well, this is my logic trail....

1. I was born, I had no choice, I will die, this is my destiny... I cannot escape it... I am predestined, regardless of anything I do between these two points....

2. However, i can have some say in how, and (to a degree) when it happens, eating right, looking both ways crossing a street, no pistols in the mouth... Treating my fellow humans nicely....

But, there is no escaping this destiny...
__________________________

3. I want to be happy...

4. My choices I make today, will get me to that destiny, should I apply intelligent decisions to my path...

In this way, based on my definitions, I have a free will to make this happen, or the free will to not make it happen, and hope my 'destiny' is to be happy....

It is due to this version, that I say, "I have the destiny to live out the results of my free will"... Although I say it different each time I say it, lol.... :lol:...

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13 May 2016 16:18 #241024 by
My take on free will is that it is not so much a cut and dried issue of either free will OR destiny, but a range of probability that narrows down the closer you get to any given event. Weather prediction is a good example of this. Even the supercomputers that have millions of inputs and simulate the entire planet cannot determine the exact course a storm will take. It should be a mathematically predictable course, but any storm can suddenly turn at the last minute and do something totally unexpected (I'm not saying the storm has free will, but it's an illustration of how something can appear to be destiny, and yet behave in a totally unpredictable manner).
When a choice has been made, we can look back on it and identify the apparent causes or motivations that led to that choice. I think this is what reinforces the notion of free will. We can see that it was ultimately our feelings or ideas that led to make that choice, therefore, it must have been my free will. But just like the storm, even if you could see all of the inputs, including a person's entire life experience and all outside influences, they still could surprise you and do something totally unexpected.
That being said, I believe that almost everything we do does follow a plan or "destiny," but within that destiny, we have the ability to rebel and do "our own thing" any time we choose.
The only possibility that I can see that free will does not really exist is in the notion that God knows everything that will ever happen and therefore has, technically, already happened in his mind. However, even within this apparent path of destiny, it could be that God just knows the entire multiplicity of timelines that could play out as a result of human choices. So, he knows what will happen no matter what we choose. He knows the entire timeline after that choice and knows everything that will happen with either choice.
In any case, I know that we are responsible for the individual choices that we make even if it is all predestined. And from a spiritual perspective, it behooves us to make choices that will lead to a better situation for our neighbor and for ourselves.

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13 May 2016 17:04 #241027 by Wescli Wardest
You know… :huh:

I may be predestine to believe that I have free will. B)

But, I may just think that I have the free will to believe that I have a destiny. :pinch:

Of course, it could just be that I was predestined to believe I have the free will to be believe that I am predestined to believe my free will is destined! :ohmy:

:unsure:


Wait a sec…

Now I’m all confused! :ohmy:

hahahahhahha :woohoo: :laugh: :silly: :cheer: :P

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13 May 2016 17:09 #241029 by
CableSteele, I have a very similar outlook on life as what you've said!

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