What's in a name?

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21 Aug 2019 22:03 - 21 Aug 2019 22:11 #341636 by Kelrax Lorcken
Shakespeare once wrote, "-a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet."

I'm paraphrasing, and using it out context, but since I'm opening a discussion rather than a debate, I imagine it won't be held against me :P

It sounds simple enough; regardless of what specific name we assign to something, it still is the same basic thing.

And yet, a rose isn't "just a flower", is it? One could go to the dictionary, and get a definition, but not meaning. In so many things, we assume greater meaning beyond the word.

And people aren't flowers.

Multiple culture's assign significance in nomenclature; to have and fully know a name was regarded as a form of power, especially a person's. Knowingsomeone's true name gives you power over them.

But, again, people are strange things, in this regard.

Some of you may be familiar with the "Argos" philosophical exercise, but for those who aren't, I'll explain: the Argos, over the course of the Argosy, undergoes a great many repairs, to such an extent that it wouldn't be hyperbole to suggest it was effectively rebuilt entirely, at least once. The key question to the exercise was- after so many of the original parts are replaced, can still claim that same ship?

Sometimes, a person goes through an event, has an experience, or some other combination of synonyms, and they come out the other side... Different.

So different, that on comes the existential introspection; who am I, now? Who was I, before? And what does either really mean?

Further, still, what does that mean to the people around you? The people close to you? Are you still the same person, to them? Or they, to you?

These are thoughts I have, as of late.

Let's discuss.

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0
Last edit: 21 Aug 2019 22:11 by Kelrax Lorcken. Reason: Grammatical errors
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21 Aug 2019 22:11 #341639 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar
No the idea of "self" is an illusion. Also the physical construct is a red herring. It does not matter because it is fleeting. All that matter is the continuity of experience that builds constantly on the imagination. The idea is to stop focusing on such things in the pursuit of something higher. That higher meaning is purpose.

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
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21 Aug 2019 22:48 #341645 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic What's in a name?

VixensVengeance wrote: No the idea of "self" is an illusion. Also the physical construct is a red herring. It does not matter because it is fleeting. All that matter is the continuity of experience that builds constantly on the imagination. The idea is to stop focusing on such things in the pursuit of something higher. That higher meaning is purpose.


I agree with you on almost all of this with the exception of the "self" being an illusion. I think the self is just a much smaller part of a whole than we like to build it up too. I do not think we should dismiss indvidual experience as having a hand in finding purpose. In my personal experience it is exactly my experience that has allowed me to find a purpose with which I want to pursue.

As for the OP's topic. A name is simply a name. It is a word that only means what you and others assign it as such. I use my name Kobos, sure it has it's backing in Poland and represents my family through the generations there and in our immigration to the US. To my some of my students, it means that long haired teacher who is alright with chilling, talking straight, who swears, jokes, and in the end gives more of a crap about the way you apply knowledge than how you learn it. On the converse there are students that think that name means that weird long haired teacher who is always looking serious and is a dick about the rules and pushes them to go out of their way to do things to completion. So there is really just a ton of perspectives in the name it means one thing to some and another to others.

In a thought sense I have changed many times and in fact still changing all the time. You could call me Shitbag for all I care if that is how you want to define me, but make sure that your definition of shitbag actually defines your image of me as I am through our interactions.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
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22 Aug 2019 01:19 #341657 by Kelrax Lorcken
Replied by Kelrax Lorcken on topic What's in a name?
I'll stick with attempting to "know thyself". Afterall, Kobos, introspection, and the exploration of identity not only leads one to experiences, but can be an experience, in itself.

As a fleeting thing, I prefer to partake while I can. If we've only this one life before we return to The Force, what's the harm in enriching our spirits? Indulging to the point of distraction, I think, would be of greater concern, such as hedonism, or the infamous "navel gazing" so many refer to when they find the discussion in general distasteful. We don't dismiss the notion of love, as another point, even though it can often be temporary or "fleeting" (some might even say it isn't real, but that's a different discussion entirely), yet most don't shy away from it; no, we say that it's "better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all". Similarly, I would maintain that "A life un-reflected is a life wasted".

Knowledge of the self is still pursuit of knowledge, and can just as easily lead one to sense of purpose, if only for a short while. Did I just accidentally define form of philosophy??

Oh, I do enjoy when a discussion makes me think, like this! Thank you, all!

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0
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22 Aug 2019 01:32 #341661 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic What's in a name?
I think it serves as a reference in a system, and so when one wants to alter aspects of interactions within that system it might suit to alter the reference label. Why is a difficult questions, just because of being so many reasons why... might be easier to ask why not! Factors probably relate to the extents of its actions and how the system it interacts with is structured, inner, outer, private, public etc

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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22 Aug 2019 04:08 #341680 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Kobos wrote:

VixensVengeance wrote: No the idea of "self" is an illusion. Also the physical construct is a red herring. It does not matter because it is fleeting. All that matter is the continuity of experience that builds constantly on the imagination. The idea is to stop focusing on such things in the pursuit of something higher. That higher meaning is purpose.


I agree with you on almost all of this with the exception of the "self" being an illusion. I think the self is just a much smaller part of a whole than we like to build it up too. I do not think we should dismiss indvidual experience as having a hand in finding purpose. In my personal experience it is exactly my experience that has allowed me to find a purpose with which I want to pursue.



This is an interesting dilemma you present that I would like to explore. I claim there is no such thing as self but you feel there is.

I am a human called vixen (entity) and lets also say there is a ship called Argo (construct). As we examine each let me ask you, where is the self of vixen? In the body right? And where is the construct argo? In the ship. If we break a mast from the ship and now there are two parts, I ask where is Argo? You point at the ship and not the mast. If I break an arm off my body so there are two parts and then I ask where is vixen? You point not at the arm but at the remaining body.

You see we have this intuitive idea of where the entity resides. So my next question becomes, what if we keep breaking parts off both the ship and the body until both are completely disassembled. And then I ask you where is Argo or where is vixen? Can you answer that question?

One of two things might happen. Suddenly you include all the parts again and call it Argo or call it vixen or you realize that at some point Argo or vixen disappeared. So where did they go? Did they ever exist and if they did where are they now?

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
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22 Aug 2019 11:14 #341705 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic What's in a name?

VixensVengeance wrote:

Kobos wrote:

VixensVengeance wrote: No the idea of "self" is an illusion. Also the physical construct is a red herring. It does not matter because it is fleeting. All that matter is the continuity of experience that builds constantly on the imagination. The idea is to stop focusing on such things in the pursuit of something higher. That higher meaning is purpose.


I agree with you on almost all of this with the exception of the "self" being an illusion. I think the self is just a much smaller part of a whole than we like to build it up too. I do not think we should dismiss indvidual experience as having a hand in finding purpose. In my personal experience it is exactly my experience that has allowed me to find a purpose with which I want to pursue.



This is an interesting dilemma you present that I would like to explore. I claim there is no such thing as self but you feel there is.

I am a human called vixen (entity) and lets also say there is a ship called Argo (construct). As we examine each let me ask you, where is the self of vixen? In the body right? And where is the construct argo? In the ship. If we break a mast from the ship and now there are two parts, I ask where is Argo? You point at the ship and not the mast. If I break an arm off my body so there are two parts and then I ask where is vixen? You point not at the arm but at the remaining body.

You see we have this intuitive idea of where the entity resides. So my next question becomes, what if we keep breaking parts off both the ship and the body until both are completely disassembled. And then I ask you where is Argo or where is vixen? Can you answer that question?

One of two things might happen. Suddenly you include all the parts again and call it Argo or call it vixen or you realize that at some point Argo or vixen disappeared. So where did they go? Did they ever exist and if they did where are they now?


Damn this is going to go down a nice rabbit hole :)

So my first counter to that is that there is an assumption that the self is only in a physical entity, the telling of the Argo for sure points to this. But, let's examine the information age as our background. You go through my journal right and here all these little tidbits of information that exist. Now these little entries are disassociated from the physical me by way of long term storage as are any forum post I have made. Therefore, now an individual entity of information exists I would assert that by reading them you could gather enough to make an educated guess into my opinions and define the individual that is me. This in some way may infact give the self more importance than in the past. But, as I said I tend to see the self as a smaller part of the whole. Like a red blood cell in an organism. In fact I actually constantly use the society as a body reference frame for a teaching point.

So to answer your questions directly, "So where did they go?" back to the same place they always were, like a drop of rain it is still with in the water cycle but did exist as an individual entity with in a larger entity. It is interesting because it depends on how far you are wiling to break things down. Is every particle's placement in a piece of steel's make up important? I would assert that it depends on the use of the steel.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
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22 Aug 2019 12:31 - 22 Aug 2019 12:39 #341721 by _Vergere_
Replied by _Vergere_ on topic What's in a name?
To quote Matthew Stover from Traitor: "The truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it."

Interesting that you mention going through an event and becoming someone different on the other side of it... I experienced one of those events. I've had to reassess who I am, as you alluded to. I struggled with such questions for a long time. Battled depression along the way.

I wouldn't say the change came abruptly or in a single blast of enlightenment, but rather a gradual realization. Studying Zen helped me get there, which is this: it doesn't matter what I call myself, it doesn't really even matter who or what I am, or even what I do. It turned out that what mattered to me most was Love. Love for my family, my friends, and my new girlfriend. Everything else fell by the wayside. Not that I've quit being a Jedi-like person, I just don't worry about it anymore. I do what I can, when I can.

No pressure. No labels. Only liberation.

(Hint: read my signature ;) )


Listen well: Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask is a trick.
You will find no truth in me.

Last edit: 22 Aug 2019 12:39 by _Vergere_.
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22 Aug 2019 16:47 - 22 Aug 2019 16:52 #341820 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Kobos wrote: So my first counter to that is that there is an assumption that the self is only in a physical entity, the telling of the Argo for sure points to this. But, let's examine the information age as our background. You go through my journal right and here all these little tidbits of information that exist. Now these little entries are disassociated from the physical me by way of long term storage as are any forum post I have made. Therefore, now an individual entity of information exists I would assert that by reading them you could gather enough to make an educated guess into my opinions and define the individual that is me. This in some way may infact give the self more importance than in the past. But, as I said I tend to see the self as a smaller part of the whole. Like a red blood cell in an organism. In fact I actually constantly use the society as a body reference frame for a teaching point.

So to answer your questions directly, "So where did they go?" back to the same place they always were, like a drop of rain it is still with in the water cycle but did exist as an individual entity with in a larger entity. It is interesting because it depends on how far you are wiling to break things down. Is every particle's placement in a piece of steel's make up important? I would assert that it depends on the use of the steel.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos





Those are very nice points. Allow me to counter! I’m going to do this sort of out of order as that is how my thoughts are flowing. In the case of your journal you claim those entries are disassociated from the self. If I understand you correctly, you go on to say that it becomes an individual “entity” in itself because of the information it contains about you (the self). However I would disagree. Those entries do not constitute an “entity” but simply a map of the entity. There is a discernable difference between that map that represents that entity and the entity itself. Often times these get confused. You can use the map to navigate the entity, (know things about it – your “educated guess”) but the map is not the entity itself.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation

The “more importance” you speak of is actually attributed to the map itself and not the original entity it represents. There is an old tale of a map that was built to actual scale and laid over a land. Over time the map was forgotten to exist and people began to see the map as actual reality. They had a view of the land that was not real because the map was static, just as your journal entry is, and yet the actual land beneath that map continued to change and evolve, just as the actual entity would. In that case what is being viewed statically over time becomes less and less like the actual entity it represents until it reaches a point where there may be no resemblance between the two. Do you possess views today that have changed over time from things you have written in the past? That map/journal entry no longer represents the self because it has no ability to grow.

Let’s take a different approach to this. Say you were given the skill and the raw resources to build a ship. You have a forest of fresh wood and a steel mine in which to forge materials from. You cut the first tree down and decide to name your ship Argo and you set about assembling it. At what point does the ship actually become Argo? Does Argo exist as a ship when it is just raw steel in the ground and trees in a forest? If not at what point in the assembly does it become a ship called Argo?

Say a couple has sex and a child is created. At this point it is a single cell with the potential to become a human being. And let’s say that the couple is capable of telling exactly when that moment of conception happened and they decide to name that child Vixen. Is that single cell really an entity called Vixen or is it just a single Cell? That cell can’t think or feel or experience anything so at what point does it become the conscious entity Vixen? At what point can you define it as a “person”? If that single cell is destroyed for whatever reason before it has a chance to divide was it ever a person? What if it was a bundle of 10 cells or a 1000 cells? We were discussing "where did the individual go" but now i'm asking where did the individual come from?

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
Last edit: 22 Aug 2019 16:52 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar.
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22 Aug 2019 18:09 #341842 by Phoenix Vidensia
Replied by Phoenix Vidensia on topic What's in a name?

VixensVengeance wrote: No the idea of "self" is an illusion. Also the physical construct is a red herring. It does not matter because it is fleeting. All that matter is the continuity of experience that builds constantly on the imagination. The idea is to stop focusing on such things in the pursuit of something higher. That higher meaning is purpose.


In my experience, there is "something" when all you know to be yourself is stripped away. I don't yet know what that is.

... Meh ...
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