Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation?

If you're dead, Khaos, how do you know you're being cremated?

As I said, its in my will.

When I had a child, I had a will done.

I dont have to wait for death to know what will be done with my meat suit when I am dead.

Only those without a will, will have to wonder.

You may have missed the point of the question (though I doubt you did, and perhaps are ignoring it). If you're dead, what can you know about the physical world? If your identity is erased or dispersed (like the ice cube in water metaphor you used), what about this world can you be aware of? Can time and space as you know them now continue to exist for you?

I'm not trying to argue here, just bringing up some questions for discussion.

Thank you for the ocean analogy Proteus

When this topic comes up, I like to throw a curve ball and respond with, "Where were you before you were born?"

All I know of death is what I can observe. The animate becomes inanimate, and then it is broken down into its base elements which are distributed throughout the environment. As to what becomes of meta-cognition (which is what we usually think of as "the self") I have no idea because I don't really even know what it is right now haha.

I loved Proteus's analogy because it shows how things work. The same natural Forces that act on the tides also act on everything else. That's why it's said by wise dead Asians that if you understand the nature of one thing fully, you understand the nature of all things. Because all things are moved by the same Force. What's more important to me than what "I" become after I die, is what "I" am right Now.

Streen wrote: You may have missed the point of the question (though I doubt you did, and perhaps are ignoring it). If you're dead, what can you know about the physical world? If your identity is erased or dispersed (like the ice cube in water metaphor you used), what about this world can you be aware of? Can time and space as you know them now continue to exist for you?

I'm not trying to argue here, just bringing up some questions for discussion.

I know I will be cremated, I wont feel myself being cremated, or be aware of it.

Still, this knowing is in the fact that it is bought and paid for ahead of time, while I am alive and aware, and have my identity.

The point still escapes me, as you seemed to have answered your question, but I still dont see what point your trying to make.

I made funeral arrangements. Simple as that.

At the time it happens, no, time and space wont exist for me(unless were speaking strictly of my body as me, then it will.)

I loved Proteus's analogy because it shows how things work. The same natural Forces that act on the tides also act on everything else.

Uhh, it describes how the tides work, sort of, not really. There is a lot more to the tides working than what he went into with his analogy.

Do you know what natural "forces" cause the tides to do what they do?

Khaos wrote: Uhh, it describes how the tides work, sort of, not really. There is a lot more to the tidesworking than what he went into with his analogy.

Do you know what natural "forces" cause the tides to do what they do?

Gravity, inertia, etc. Namely all things are cause/effect and constant change. That's the Force to me. Both the tides and me are both expressions of that, and we both abide by the same laws of conditionality, dependence and the bell curve. Proteus's analogy showed that all things are just like the waves.They rise, stabilize, decline and dissolve. Yet the entire time they were dependent on the ocean and were never separate from it.

Khaos wrote: The point still escapes me, as you seemed to have answered your question, but I still don't see what point your trying to make.

It's alright, I was being vague on purpose, thinking you might get my point without me spelling it out. No harm done though. It's simple really. It comes down to the old Zen koan, "If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around, does it make a sound?" The tree falling in the woods if your death. But if you're not around to witness your own cremation (the sound of it falling) then does it happen at all?

If we're talking about trees in this sense, the technical answer to the question is, "No, it doesn't make a sound". Why? Because the definition of sound includes the existence of an ear in which the vibration will be received. If there is no ear, there is no sound.

So, if there is no You, does your cremation ever happen? Does Khaos' world continue to exist without him? Just a rhetorical question really, since there is no way to know.

Why even go so far, really? I mean, arranged or not, there is no knowing the future in this way anyway, is there? What if you die in, say, a landslide such that your body is more or less beyond retrieval? Or perhaps you drown in the ocean or go down with a plane. You haven't arranged for your corpse being recovered from anything like that, have you? So even with the cremation all aranged and prepared, there is no telling that it is actually going to happen, likely though it may be and reasonable though it is to assume that indeed it will.

On another note, Liwa, your person is governed primarily by electromagnetism and the strong nuclear force, whereas the tides are governed mostly by gravity. And inertia is not a force. Just to blow your mind some further, inertia is actually a quantity of resistence to change, so go figure. Now, that is not to say that the collapse of an ocean wave on the shore is a bad analogy for death. Certainly, it is lacking in many areas, but all analogies are and if we wanted to express all that death entails we wouldn't use one. With death, and specifically what lies beyond, being - to smuggle in a Shakespearean note - "the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveller returns", I suppose we do get to make up unsubstantiated fantasies about how all of that functions, and there is nothing strictly wrong in employing crude analogies to illustrate said fantasies. However, kindly leave them be analogies and don't assert more accuracy than is either present or required. The world doesn't work on metaphors and analogies the way people do. Metaphysics is neither an extension nor an area of physics. Please, don't try and get me started... Ask anyone, they'll tell you I won't stop.
Cheers.

Gisteron wrote: The world doesn't work on metaphors and analogies the way people do. Metaphysics is neither an extension nor an area of physics. Please, don't try and get me started... Ask anyone, they'll tell you I won't stop.
Cheers.

Are you then admitting to possessing little to no self control?

Gisteron wrote: The world doesn't work on metaphors and analogies the way people do. Metaphysics is neither an extension nor an area of physics. Please, don't try and get me started... Ask anyone, they'll tell you I won't stop.
Cheers.

The world does not work on metaphors no, neither do we

Through using metaphors we can make others understand more easy, and maybe improve their way of thinking

Proteus's analogy showed that all things are just like the waves.They rise, stabilize, decline and dissolve. Yet the entire time they were dependent on the ocean and were never separate from it.

This is a beautiful thing....

I've read some say the only difference is the vibration of the waves, part of much larger broader spectrum. Much broader then we can experience but it still have an influence on us.

I think this has devolved a lot into criticism and semantics. Let Khaos do what works for him, and do what works for you. Arguing with him is not the point. It doesn't matter if he's cremated or not, though those are his wishes. Please.

I am of the belief that "return to the force" and "reincarnation" are nice words for saying we will be broken down to our base components and recycled into a new life form. And I think that is beautiful. I don't know what the conscious mind is, but I do not believe mine will live on after my physical body dies. And that's okay with me. Oblivion is nothing to fear, but to me, to be embraced. We think too much. This life is stressful. Oblivion is eternal serenity.

For the record, I too want to be cremated. Though, by the same token, I'm an organ donor because I believe that what happens to my body after I am no longer using it is irrelevant to me.

I believe heaven and hell (and purgatory for that matter) do exist - not as places we go after we die, but psychological spaces we inhabit whilst we're alive. Most simply hell is separation (selfishness), heaven is connection (love) and purgatory is that feeling I experience most of the time: some combination of the two. None of these states are permanent - they are all subject to change. However, through practice we can gain some control as to which psychological space we reside in.

As for any experience after physical death, I agree with Liwa Nim, it is probably very similar to the experience before birth (or conception, or whatever). I like the Richard Bach quote on this:

"What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a butterfly."

Its off-topic but I was enjoying the discussion on the prevalence of metaphor in our human experience - might start another thread on that . . . *ponders*

Gisteron wrote: there is no telling that it is actually going to happen, likely though it may be and reasonable though it is to assume that indeed it will.

Assume nothing. Every assumption is a conclusion. Every conclusion is an end, a death, if you will. All things move and evolve, including thought.

Streen wrote:

Khaos wrote: The point still escapes me, as you seemed to have answered your question, but I still don't see what point your trying to make.

It's alright, I was being vague on purpose, thinking you might get my point without me spelling it out. No harm done though. It's simple really. It comes down to the old Zen koan, "If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around, does it make a sound?" The tree falling in the woods if your death. But if you're not around to witness your own cremation (the sound of it falling) then does it happen at all?

If we're talking about trees in this sense, the technical answer to the question is, "No, it doesn't make a sound". Why? Because the definition of sound includes the existence of an ear in which the vibration will be received. If there is no ear, there is no sound.

So, if there is no You, does your cremation ever happen? Does Khaos' world continue to exist without him? Just a rhetorical question really, since there is no way to know.

Then it is not only pointless, but useless.

I can say that my mother sits in a jar not 100 feet from me.

Does her world go on?

No, her cremation still happened, and your proposition would also have to mean I am the last person on earth, or in the case of your analogy, the only thing in the forest. My mother was not, we "heard" the "tree" fall, so to speak.

I have no use for zen koans.

Also,if you conclude there is no way to know, then the question is not just rhetorical, but without merit.

Streen wrote:

Gisteron wrote: there is no telling that it is actually going to happen, likely though it may be and reasonable though it is to assume that indeed it will.

Assume nothing. Every assumption is a conclusion. Every conclusion is an end, a death, if you will. All things move and evolve, including thought.

Conclusions are not an end, actually.

Of course, this conversation is getting a bit woo, woo, trying to impart some grand lesson by being vague when really, its not.

You argue for something you conclude that there is no way of knowing.

That, is a dead end.

Loudzoo wrote: As for any experience after physical death, I agree with Liwa Nim, it is probably very similar to the experience before birth (or conception, or whatever).

That experience being?

Also, you imply evolution into a butterfly, but then, if death simply is like what was before experienced, then there was no evolution, no change.

A butterfly is much different then a caterpillar, and in that analogy life is the chrysalis...So I was a butterfly that regressed only to be a butterfly again?

Streen wrote:

Gisteron wrote: there is no telling that it is actually going to happen, likely though it may be and reasonable though it is to assume that indeed it will.

Assume nothing. Every assumption is a conclusion. Every conclusion is an end, a death, if you will. All things move and evolve, including thought.

Yea, don't go full woo-woo on me, sir...


A conclusion is a proposition reached from given premises.
An assumption is a proposition accepted (tentatively) without premises to inescapably lead to it.

They are literally the opposite of each other!

Khaos wrote:

Loudzoo wrote: As for any experience after physical death, I agree with Liwa Nim, it is probably very similar to the experience before birth (or conception, or whatever).

That experience being?

That experience being something we don't typically have access to whilst we are alive / awake - like being in deep (non-dreaming) sleep. I imagine death being like that: peaceful, insensitive to the passing of time and inpenetrable to our conscious waking experience.

Also, you imply evolution into a butterfly, but then, if death simply is like what was before experienced, then there was no evolution, no change.

A butterfly is much different then a caterpillar, and in that analogy life is the chrysalis...So I was a butterfly that regressed only to be a butterfly again?

Rumi explains it better (for me) than anyone else:

I died as a mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was Man.
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as Man, to soar
With angels blest; but even from angelhood
I must pass on: all except God doth perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel-soul,
I shall become what no mind e'er conceived.
Oh, let me not exist! for Non-existence
Proclaims in organ tones, To Him we shall return.

Please remember to be polite to other posters on the forum. It's ok to disagree with people but there is no reason to be an arse doing so

General Mod thought to know one and everyone, thank you :side: