Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation?

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27 Nov 2015 11:42 #210613 by Streen
Replied by Streen on topic Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation?
If you're dead, Khaos, how do you know you're being cremated? ;)

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27 Nov 2015 12:16 - 27 Nov 2015 12:18 #210615 by Khaos
Replied by Khaos on topic Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation?
As I said, its in my will.

When I had a child, I had a will done.

I dont have to wait for death to know what will be done with my meat suit when I am dead.

Only those without a will, will have to wonder.

Hugs and Kisses.
~Khaos~
Last edit: 27 Nov 2015 12:18 by Khaos.

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28 Nov 2015 12:54 #210724 by Streen
Replied by Streen on topic Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation?
You may have missed the point of the question (though I doubt you did, and perhaps are ignoring it). If you're dead, what can you know about the physical world? If your identity is erased or dispersed (like the ice cube in water metaphor you used), what about this world can you be aware of? Can time and space as you know them now continue to exist for you?

I'm not trying to argue here, just bringing up some questions for discussion.

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28 Nov 2015 14:37 #210726 by Liwa Nim
Replied by Liwa Nim on topic Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation?
Thank you for the ocean analogy Proteus :)

When this topic comes up, I like to throw a curve ball and respond with, "Where were you before you were born?"

All I know of death is what I can observe. The animate becomes inanimate, and then it is broken down into its base elements which are distributed throughout the environment. As to what becomes of meta-cognition (which is what we usually think of as "the self") I have no idea because I don't really even know what it is right now haha.

I loved Proteus's analogy because it shows how things work. The same natural Forces that act on the tides also act on everything else. That's why it's said by wise dead Asians that if you understand the nature of one thing fully, you understand the nature of all things. Because all things are moved by the same Force. What's more important to me than what "I" become after I die, is what "I" am right Now.

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28 Nov 2015 19:49 - 28 Nov 2015 19:51 #210750 by Khaos
Replied by Khaos on topic Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation?

Streen wrote: You may have missed the point of the question (though I doubt you did, and perhaps are ignoring it). If you're dead, what can you know about the physical world? If your identity is erased or dispersed (like the ice cube in water metaphor you used), what about this world can you be aware of? Can time and space as you know them now continue to exist for you?

I'm not trying to argue here, just bringing up some questions for discussion.


I know I will be cremated, I wont feel myself being cremated, or be aware of it.

Still, this knowing is in the fact that it is bought and paid for ahead of time, while I am alive and aware, and have my identity.

The point still escapes me, as you seemed to have answered your question, but I still dont see what point your trying to make.

I made funeral arrangements. Simple as that.

At the time it happens, no, time and space wont exist for me(unless were speaking strictly of my body as me, then it will.)

I loved Proteus's analogy because it shows how things work. The same natural Forces that act on the tides also act on everything else.


Uhh, it describes how the tides work, sort of, not really. There is a lot more to the tides working than what he went into with his analogy.

Do you know what natural "forces" cause the tides to do what they do?

Hugs and Kisses.
~Khaos~
Last edit: 28 Nov 2015 19:51 by Khaos.

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28 Nov 2015 20:33 #210753 by Liwa Nim
Replied by Liwa Nim on topic Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation?

Khaos wrote: Uhh, it describes how the tides work, sort of, not really. There is a lot more to the tidesworking than what he went into with his analogy.

Do you know what natural "forces" cause the tides to do what they do?


Gravity, inertia, etc. Namely all things are cause/effect and constant change. That's the Force to me. Both the tides and me are both expressions of that, and we both abide by the same laws of conditionality, dependence and the bell curve. Proteus's analogy showed that all things are just like the waves.They rise, stabilize, decline and dissolve. Yet the entire time they were dependent on the ocean and were never separate from it.

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28 Nov 2015 21:09 #210755 by Streen
Replied by Streen on topic Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation?

Khaos wrote: The point still escapes me, as you seemed to have answered your question, but I still don't see what point your trying to make.


It's alright, I was being vague on purpose, thinking you might get my point without me spelling it out. No harm done though. It's simple really. It comes down to the old Zen koan, "If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around, does it make a sound?" The tree falling in the woods if your death. But if you're not around to witness your own cremation (the sound of it falling) then does it happen at all?

If we're talking about trees in this sense, the technical answer to the question is, "No, it doesn't make a sound". Why? Because the definition of sound includes the existence of an ear in which the vibration will be received. If there is no ear, there is no sound.

So, if there is no You, does your cremation ever happen? Does Khaos' world continue to exist without him? Just a rhetorical question really, since there is no way to know.

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28 Nov 2015 22:01 #210759 by Gisteron
Why even go so far, really? I mean, arranged or not, there is no knowing the future in this way anyway, is there? What if you die in, say, a landslide such that your body is more or less beyond retrieval? Or perhaps you drown in the ocean or go down with a plane. You haven't arranged for your corpse being recovered from anything like that, have you? So even with the cremation all aranged and prepared, there is no telling that it is actually going to happen, likely though it may be and reasonable though it is to assume that indeed it will.

On another note, Liwa, your person is governed primarily by electromagnetism and the strong nuclear force, whereas the tides are governed mostly by gravity. And inertia is not a force. Just to blow your mind some further, inertia is actually a quantity of resistence to change, so go figure. :D Now, that is not to say that the collapse of an ocean wave on the shore is a bad analogy for death. Certainly, it is lacking in many areas, but all analogies are and if we wanted to express all that death entails we wouldn't use one. With death, and specifically what lies beyond, being - to smuggle in a Shakespearean note - "the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveller returns", I suppose we do get to make up unsubstantiated fantasies about how all of that functions, and there is nothing strictly wrong in employing crude analogies to illustrate said fantasies. However, kindly leave them be analogies and don't assert more accuracy than is either present or required. The world doesn't work on metaphors and analogies the way people do. Metaphysics is neither an extension nor an area of physics. Please, don't try and get me started... Ask anyone, they'll tell you I won't stop. :P
Cheers.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned

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28 Nov 2015 22:12 #210760 by Zenchi

Gisteron wrote: The world doesn't work on metaphors and analogies the way people do. Metaphysics is neither an extension nor an area of physics. Please, don't try and get me started... Ask anyone, they'll tell you I won't stop. :P
Cheers.


Are you then admitting to possessing little to no self control?

My Word is my Honor, and my Honor is my Life ~ Sturm Brightblade
Passion, yet Serenity
Knighted Apprentice Arisaig
TM- RyuJin

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28 Nov 2015 22:35 #210762 by Yugen
Replied by Yugen on topic Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation?

Gisteron wrote: The world doesn't work on metaphors and analogies the way people do. Metaphysics is neither an extension nor an area of physics. Please, don't try and get me started... Ask anyone, they'll tell you I won't stop. :P
Cheers.


The world does not work on metaphors no, neither do we

Through using metaphors we can make others understand more easy, and maybe improve their way of thinking

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Yugen (幽玄): is said to mean “a profound, mysterious sense of the beauty of the universe… and the sad beauty of human suffering”

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