Free Thought or Dogma?

Greetings fellow Jedi,

My question is: why not create a religion which has much more extensive training programme to honour the universe/life/people/events rather than focusing on silly characters portrayed by actors.

Jediism tries to assert a meaningful unity between humans/nature and the universe and is a point of meditation that brings about enlightenment. It does however also worship story tellers and promote ideas like a so called unified (God) force binding all things together. 'The force' as portrayed in a Star Wars movie a New Hope a type of living and sentient transcendental entity that can help you conquer death like a skill that needs to be learned.

There are tons of films to choose from why not worship the creators of films like Avatar, the Na'vi, an alien race, worship a goddess named Eywa. Or venerate the book Lord of Light (1967) a science fiction/fantasy novel by American author Roger Zelazny, a nobleman re-creates a rival religious movement to dethrone a false pantheon of "Gods".

Or why not venerate the TV series Stargate SG-1, the supposed ancient gods are revealed to be powerful, parasitic aliens posing as supernatural beings, to exploit mankind. These films are all fake much like Star Wars.

And other religions like Christianity based on ancient stories as depicted in video below




I think Jediism is a belief system which is very crude. Films should like Prometheus (which explores the myth that human life did not arise spontaneously by chance that "Engineers", created life on earth) should stay in the fiction section.

I just get offended because its merging fiction with religious ideas/ideologies, what is the point...

My question is do we want a religion based on mythological dogma as presented by TOTJO or a genuine religion giving value to life rather than honouring films.

Light and Love

Ariane wrote: I just get offended because its merging fiction with religious ideas/ideologies, what is the point...

You seem to have missed it.

Jediism encourages free thinking. No single Jedi holds the same beliefs as any other. Each individual in this community is free to decide for themselves what it is that they believe, even if those beliefs are in conflict with what is presented, for example, in the Initiate Programme.

Everything here is open to interpretation, and the teaching material on this site is meant to help guide you toward possible understandings of your personal spiritual path and inspire you to think about yourself and your relationship with others and the universe.

There is value in fiction, particularly in the case of Jediism. The fiction that many Jedi cherish stems from authentic spiritual and philosophical sources.

The Force is the unifying concept within the Jedi community, but "the Force" can and does mean different things to different people. Some Jedi believe in "a so called unified (God) force binding all things together," others don't.

There are many ways of approaching Jediism. Despite your claim that Jediism is "too crude to inspire people who are free thinkers," it seems as though you've chosen to put it in a box and examine it from a very narrow perspective.

Arcade I am sorry I edited my Opening Post too much,

But yes you have understood my question and yes I agree its me who is narrow minded... But you cannot ever be too open minded either.

Also TOTJO has inspired me too, although its very crude I like what I learned and I am going to make a short animation about Jediism.

Thanks for your reply

Ariane wrote: Arcade I am sorry I edited my Opening Post too much,

It does seem to read differently after your edits.

I don't think I fully understood your original post, Ariane. Unfortunately, I need to run off, but perhaps someone else will respond with thoughts that are more relevant to your intended message and related concerns.

Ariane wrote: I just get offended because its merging fiction with religious ideas/ideologies, what is the point...

My question is do we want a religion based on mythological dogma as presented by TOTJO or a genuine religion giving value to life rather than honouring films.

You'll find it does happens often so if it offends you might have to watch out for that.... but its not part of the 'dogma', not here at least. Some other Jedi groups might associate more closely with particular elements of the fiction. I think most people here use various sources from both science, history and fictional sources - its certainly not limited to Star Wars.

Here we rather use anything and everything which might have value for spiritual growth, and it happens to be called Jediism. This 'dogma' you speak of at TOTJO... where is it? Something might appear dogmatic, but is it actually enforced as dogma? Is it meant to be interpreted as a guide? Even the TOTJO Doctrine is assessed for improvement/change, but it is designed to be as open and universal as possible while still trying to be functionally relevant.

Another interesting question is why call it Jediism, why use 'Jedi' if its not so linked to the particular fiction, but that is based on that its a (relatively) modern interpretation of historical religious and human spirit and culture (as intended during Star Wars creation) which thus as 'Jedi' we embrace and try to take forward into the future as a more useful religion/path/philosophy.

The inspiration behind the general approach to Jediism as per this temple is not a focus on the story itself nor the characters, but on the nature and purpose behind this type of storytelling at all - using storytelling as a mirror for the human condition and the pursuit of understanding what it is all about for not only each individual, but for humanity as a whole. The form through which we observe our humanity in this way is through the archetype of the "hero" and as Joseph Campbell explains The Hero's Journey (something we learn a bit about in the Initiates Program here). The model of the Jedi is simply one of many chosen vehicles through which we connect ourselves with the nature of the Hero as a symbol, but really, most all examples of heroes are the same. Here, we are not limited to only using the Jedi to connect to this reflection (no, not even here at TOTJO). You are free to use any example you wish, in which helps you accomplish the same thing in a way that reveals the commonality between you and every person around you in a connected system of life and existence for which we may call The Force.

As far as I know, we do not practice Dogma here at this temple (at least I hope not). We simply observe the nature of our lives and share what we are learning together. Nothing more. The format we have chosen with this temple and its religious aspect has much to do with serving a familiar interface to anybody and everybody who naturally resonates with it for one reason or another - but even then, we do not see religion in such a traditional sense as, for example, your local christian might. It is much more broad and connected to the nature of mythology for which lies behind ALL present religions in modern day, in company with the format of a more modern mythological storytelling that is Star Wars and the Jedi.

Think beyond the story, the characters, the gimmicks. Think past dogma, social tradition, and ideals. Think back to the origin of the purpose of all of it, and then take a look at where we are today with it and where we wish to go with it, with the intention of Not forgetting the roots of religion - the nature and purpose of mythology. This, I feel is the aim of this temple's presentation of the Jedi and Jediism.

Ariane wrote: My question is: why not create a religion which has much more extensive training programme to honour the universe/life/people/events rather than focusing on silly characters portrayed by actors.

Could you show me please where in our training programme we focus on 'silly characters portrayed by actors'.

It does however also worship story tellers and promote ideas like a so called unified (God) force binding all things together. 'The force' as portrayed in a Star Wars movie a New Hope a type of living and sentient transcendental entity that can help you conquer death like a skill that needs to be learned.

I don't think anyone here worships story tellers, and the Force in the films is not necessarily the The Force of our members. I for one do not believe in a sentient Force.

There are tons of films to choose from why not worship the creators of films like Avatar, the Na'vi, an alien race, worship a goddess named Eywa. Or venerate the book Lord of Light (1967) a science fiction/fantasy novel by American author Roger Zelazny, a nobleman re-creates a rival religious movement to dethrone a false pantheon of "Gods".


Or why not venerate the TV series Stargate SG-1, the supposed ancient gods are revealed to be powerful, parasitic aliens posing as supernatural beings, to exploit mankind. These films are all fake much like Star Wars.

Fake as in acting, maybe not fake in some of the messages. This is why stories work so well, why the same stories come up time and time again, in media and in our passed on stories.

My question is do we want a religion based on mythological dogma as presented by TOTJO or a genuine religion giving value to life rather than honouring films.

If you cannot see that Jedi here give value to life, then I think you may not have read enough of our posts or our messages.
It's in our very doctrine.

Jediism as presented here is about as New Age as it gets. It either avoids making claims of the supernatural or makes them so vague that there might as well be none for all the meaning they carry. It recognizes all the myth behind it as myth rather than reality and insists that the stories from the other religions are really the same and equally mythical and harmless, and also that the other religions mostly see it that way when of course they don't. The moral precepts Jediism offers are in full or in part offered by other constructs of moral thought; and while not one of them is original to Jediism, Jedi still sort of kind of tend to think they made an invention or discovered something genuinely unique when of course they have neither.

So when you say that TOTJO Jediism insists on some ties to the Star Wars fiction, I don't know what you are talking about. If it insists on anything, it is on strictly not insisting on anything at all, ever, to the extent where even in clear-cut and solved issues uncertainty is not merely asserted but indeed even demanded.

I am grateful for the direction Jediism gave me back in the day, but my eventual conclusions I came to on my own and I wouldn't have elected to be helped out by Jediism, had I not been the man I was back then. And as you surely noticed, I am by no means defending Jediism from criticism in general; however, what you seem to imply about this particular site is frankly incorrect and you could have known better had you read through as much as the front page at any point during the five months you had been registered.

Also, on a more light-hearted note:

Ariane wrote: My question is do we want a religion based on mythological dogma as presented by TOTJO or a genuine religion giving value to life rather than honouring films.

Wait, which one is it? Do you want a genuine religion, or one that is not based on mythological dogma? Make up your mind, you can't have both.

Gisteron wrote: So when you say that TOTJO Jediism insists on some ties to the Star Wars fiction, I don't know what you are talking about. If it insists on anything, it is on strictly not insisting on anything at all, ever, to the extent where even in clear-cut and solved issues uncertainty is not merely asserted but indeed even demanded.

But not insisting on something doesn't mean the same thing as saying never to insist over/with something. It just insists that nothing should insist unless you insist it to insist!? Did I get that right or did I mess it up
:silly:

Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself.

~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

The TotJO's premise - certainly that of its present clerical structure - is hardly dogmatic. And as others have pointed out, one does not find very much 'Star Wars' reverence here (although some of us may very much enjoy the story). What we are doing as best we can is to take from any inspirational source elements that can reconcile to Life on Life's terms, with all its inherent absurdities and paradoxes, to be able to see and live through the accounts of others in different places and times, to as fully as possible immersed in the 'experience of being alive'.

No matter what spiritual or religious ideologies one may want to apply, there has to be some medium through which those ideologies and the messages they vehicle are symbolised. That is, one doesn't just come up with an ideology - it has to come from somewhere, through experience, observation, contemplation ... All of these imply that things are going on. Events and the people who take part in them are all "silly characters portrayed by actors" (including us, when one really reflects on it), but whether the events are fictional or historical - or a little of both - they give us indispensable clues as to how we can live well, reconcile ourselves to mortality, determine 'just' and 'unjust' behaviours and generally not be too crass with one another. "Myth", remember, is not just an un-true story for entertainment, it is a 'story' that conveys metaphysical truth. That is, even if nothing in the story is factual, what it relates is what of the human condition that is true (or mostly) for all of us ...

But "silly characters portrayed by actors" has been for hundreds of generations a very reliable method of sharing mythic symbolism (ex. : Poetics by Aristotle). Yet, myth must be kept current - audiences, whether they be in an outdoor amphitheatre or a cinéma must be able to identify with what they are witnessing - or the mythic dimension becomes inaccessible. To this end, the archetypes that interplay in the heroic cycle are re-arranged, re-represented, updated and given a variety of conflicts, qualities and embarrassments pertinent to the time the story is told. The elements are the same as they have been for thousands of years, but we have replaced horses and chariots by high-speed chases, arrows and spears by machine guns and sometimes 'far away lands' by 'distant planets'.

Another thing I feel needs to be brought up here is that dogma is not something that is endemic to 'religious' structures only -- any time one upholds a chosen selection of principles and by one's own opinion of them has raised them to the pinnacle of "unshakable truth", that is also dogma. One's own desire/need to believe in particular guiding principles can serve as that "authority" which imposes the reverence to - and often the defence of - those principles, that then becomes as much dogma as those imposed from any outside authority.

Thus when we point our fingers at others' dogmatism, we should be very careful as to not to be pointing from the heart of our own. The proverbial pot, the proverbial kettle, the proverbial calling of "black" - which neither effectively are in this modern age of stainless steel.

Thanks for your responses I am deeply appreciative of them and I do reflect quite a lot on your words. I am struggling to cope with my life lately with work and personal relationships and that attitude may be reflected in my posts. I Apologise.

I expressed um, negative opinions about TOTJO, which in my opinion is never well received by the accused and that negativity created by an abrasive and unpleasant rhetoric by the accuser creates division. I have a habit of being critical, sceptical and sometimes rude.

However in my lay opinion, religion is a subject that tries to open positive creative peaceful emotions ideas and to help develop cooperation and loving relationships.

The world can be peaceful or extremely negative and a lot of people are seeking answers, why do they suffer? Why are hate crimes so abundant? What is Evil? Why does Evil happen? People look for solace and closure in religions to ‘guide’ and ‘heal’ and ‘grow’ reflecting on their actions in a peaceful pleasant manner with helpful rhetoric.

I do feel offended that religion could be based on or synonymous with a Hollywood Movie it doesn't in my opinion lend credibility to the faith of Jediism...

Therefore Jediism it’s not really an academic subject, it cannot be. Jediism is nothing more than drawing morals from cartoons like Mickey Mouse. I understand that everyone on TOTJO is an individual with complex needs, emotions and ideas perhaps even have many influences to draw upon with diverse interpretations of history, science and philosophy inspiring their beliefs as a Jedi. Yet TOTJO is synonymous with a 'fiction' called Star Wars, it’s almost like an invitation to use other fairy tales to use as a 'vehicle' to highlight some more ideas, for the pursuit of personal growth in spiritual knowledge.

So why not choose/create a genuine religion that uses science and vastly superior ideas than that of Mickey Mouse/Star Wars/Cinderella and other laughable stories.

Is it not better to create a genuine religion?

Ariane wrote: I do feel offended that religion could be based on or synonymous with a Hollywood Movie it doesn't in my opinion lend credibility to the faith of Jediism...

Is it not better to create a genuine religion?

I think the question that perhaps you should be asking, is not why we have created a 'fake' religion, but why you are so offended by it.

Ariane wrote: So why not choose/create a genuine religion that uses science and vastly superior ideas than that of Mickey Mouse/Star Wars/Cinderella and other laughable stories.

Is it not better to create a genuine religion?

And what is a genuine religion without analogy and myth to guide and inform the follower?

For me, Jediism is a pantheistic belief system guided by the principles of the Jedi Code. The Code seems to be where the TOTJO leaves Star Wars behind and creates a new, genuine religion embracing the nature and sanctity of life based on a synthesis of all belief systems; science, history, philosophy and world religions.

Perhaps beginning the Initiate Program will help you better understand the Temple's understanding and acceptance of myth as a vehicle for sharing a universal message transcendent of the 'characters'.

Edan wrote: I think the question that perhaps you should be asking, is not why we have created a 'false' religion, but why you are so offended by it.

I am offended for a few reasons, Edan, I am guessing your question is rhetorical...

But, here is my answer. It's spirituality that we are talking about, not a heavily commercialised Star Wars saga that has no basis in reality. Popular fiction has been drawn upon to promote ideals and many other principles simply because its fun and popular.

The popularity of Star Wars makes it more tempting for an audience to walk into a belief system, its basically an ulterior motive with good intentions but its misleading, its idolatry. People feel and want to connect with a Jedi because they covet those idols and the 'image', its just not a good spiritual progression. Jediism has become like a tourist consumer trap.

Perhaps what is missing is an example:

Lets just say I was thirsty people who are thirsty begin walking into a synagogue and telling stories about a life force called Coca Cola with a banner up suggesting the drink helps replenish energy and therefore is idolised for as a rejuvenate life force that permeates all cellular structures. What is created in that truth is an exaggeration of the truth and it doesn't make any sense why people would highlight such a trivial issue as that.

Much like how the Star Wars franchise became exaggerated. Look, you could draw or create social truth from anything within culture. It doesn't make it something 'special' every cultural product which is aesthetically beautiful or ugly can become spiritually orientated.

But I believe a genuine religion wouldn't need a fiction but instead to place values upon all things. A willing person can become the truth through good actions, to become a real role model, rather than a character that doesn't exist. If anything its disappointing.

L & L

Ariane, I want to tell you a personal story that may be able to help you see from my perspective.

Growing up I had no role models. My parents were not people I could look up to, I didn't feel strongly associated with the church I grew up in, I looked up to teachers but I didn't know them personally, they were an authority figure. I had very few friends and none of them were more experienced. I was the adult of my household and raised my siblings. Who was I to look up to?

I've always been an avid reader ever since I could remember. But the more I read, the more I found characters who inspired me. I found role models and inspiration in books, movies, TV shows, and even video games.

Master Kai Lone Wolf, Warchief Thrall, Mage Jaina Proudmore, Prince Arthas Menethil, Illidan Stormrage, Richard Rahl the Seeker of Truth, Bowen Knight of the Old Code, Doctor Daniel Jackson, Colonel Jack O'Niel, Captain Samantha Carter, Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn, Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, Wedge Antilles, Rand the Dragon Reborn, Perrin Aybara, Aragorn Elessar, Samwise Gamgee, Captain Jean-Luc Picard, Paul Muad'Dib Atreides, Gurney Halak, Duncan Idaho, Jedi Master Plo Koon, Knight Mage Kellen Tavadon, Wild Mage Idalia Tavadon.

These were my role models and heroes (and sometimes examples). Myths don't have to be old to have an impact. These stories and the people in them inspired me in a way I didn't understand at the time. But I knew I wanted to be them. So I started living my life as best I could by the morals they portrayed. My life could have gone anywhere. I could easily have become a negative, bitter, judgmental person. But my (fictional) role models were not. So I managed to overcome my own troubles and become the person I am today (who still needs work ). I see the strength of my heroes within me now. And although I plan on being that kind of role model for my daughter (who is named after one of those fictional heroes ) I am absolutely looking forward to the day that I can read to her and share with her my favorite stories.

Personally, Jediism is a philosophy more than a religion (for me). But this place teaches me about myself and about being open minded more than I've ever had anywhere else. Although for me, Jediism itself was lacking the spirituality I was so desperately looking for (that some people do manage to find here), its members lead me to where I ultimately needed to go and still help me when I get stuck. For me, this place is the community center that I can go to for chats, for help, or good conversation.

I'd go so far to say that all religion uses fiction. Nothing brings a point across like a good story. I grew up in a Christian household so my only example this early in the morning is that if you believe that the Bible is fact, even Jesus used stories (parables) in his teachings. And in shamanism, many of the teachings I get are in story or symbolism (although that may have to do with me because that's the easiest way I'm inspired but I remember reading that that's the way many people hear from their guides as well).

I know my heroes aren't "real" people. I knew that as a kid (although I wished with all my heart I could be them or live in their world (which isn't such a smart idea on most lol) ). But if something inspires you, if you can find something you can use in your day-to-day to help you get through, if you can learn valuable lessons, why ignore them? I don't think Jediism is for everyone. It has its problems like any other system. But just because its inspiration comes from a modern myth (which has a lot of old mythologies behind it) I don't think it should be discounted out-of-hand.

And I hope I'm making some sort of sense, I was trying to get this out quickly...that heroine-named baby isn't going to self-entertain for long

Ariane wrote: Jediism is nothing more than drawing morals from cartoons like Mickey Mouse... TOTJO is synonymous with a 'fiction' called Star Wars, it’s almost like an invitation to use other fairy tales to use as a 'vehicle' to highlight some more ideas, for the pursuit of personal growth in spiritual knowledge.

First of all, what's wrong with using a fiction as a vehicle? I could direct you to the Campbell lectures but seeing as you seem not influenced much by them until now, perhaps this is an opportunity for us to hear an outsider's opinion on what exactly is weak about art and fiction as a medium of communication and expression. Please, go ahead.

But evenso, we have this thing called the home page here, where at the very beginning it states

We are not a community of Star Wars roleplayers, but a church of the Jediism religion. The Jedi at this site are not the same as those portrayed within the Star Wars franchise.

(emphasis added)
And as if that wasn't quite enough to distance TOTJO from the fiction, we also have an FAQ where literally the first paragraph reads

First of all, TotJO is not a role-playing site. If you are joining purely to wear a badge reading "I'm a Jedi" then TotJO is not for you. You will not learn mystical powers or learn to build lightsabers. Whilst some of the members enjoy Star Wars, we are not Star Wars fan community. We are not affiliated, nor do we wish to become affiliated, with any LucasArts or George Lucas products and/or services.

However, I shall stay open-minded for now. Feel free to present us with evidence of us drawing our morals from the Star Wars.

So why not choose/create a genuine religion that uses science and vastly superior ideas than that of Mickey Mouse/Star Wars/Cinderella and other laughable stories.

Is it not better to create a genuine religion?

I've posed the question sort of jokingly before, but since you keep pressing it, would you kindly name us one religion current or past that ever did use anything "superior" to more or less laughable myths, let alone science? I realize that this is pending a definition of "superior" and "genuine religion", respectively, so you may be meaning something that is in a way correct, but from the dictionaries I use and the observations I came to make it seems to me that the moment a belief construct is based on something more solid than fairy tales we usually don't call them religions anymore, genuine or not.

I can understand what she's saying just from a personal perspective. When I came in here I thought alot of what we had to offer was based on the movies. As I have done my own personal studies, the dissection of our jedi code, thr 21 maxims, and of course the IP of the Temple...my point being over the course of four years and ten months I have been at this temple alot is based off free thought through the forums, through sermons, I dont think its alot of religious dogma or, people who worship starwars. Our belief does have some foundations of our own such as thejedi code but, were a temple that is very open to discussion nothing is set in stone and I believe we are ever learning about ourselves and others. I have studied the worlds religions extensively several times, been A Pastor of a church, been to other orders apart from this. I have awoken from what I have learned from TOTJO from being jyst someone who loves Starwars to a person who believes in The Force, belueves in the tenets of this temple as a way of life use them every day. I hope this doesn't offend you me say I am really not disagreeing with you but, rather sharing my testimony I hope it helps.

why would you promote veganism at a barbeque?

did someones dogma pee on your karma?

every religion uses fictional characters from made up stories to express moral truths

being offended is a choice

its impossible to become wise if you refuse to accept that youve been wrong

use whatever source of inspiration you can relate to

be open to new ideas

its one thing to tell people what you believe is the best version of right or true - its something else altogether to think theyre supposed to accept it

use evidence and credible sources to validate your assertions

have a nice day

Ariane wrote:

Edan wrote: I think the question that perhaps you should be asking, is not why we have created a 'false' religion, but why you are so offended by it.

I am offended for a few reasons, Edan, I am guessing your question is rhetorical...

It wasn't a rhetorical question...

But, here is my answer. It's spirituality that we are talking about, not a heavily commercialised Star Wars saga that has no basis in reality. Popular fiction has been drawn upon to promote ideals and many other principles simply because its fun and popular.

The popularity of Star Wars makes it more tempting for an audience to walk into a belief system, its basically an ulterior motive with good intentions but its misleading, its idolatry. People feel and want to connect with a Jedi because they covet those idols and the 'image', its just not a good spiritual progression. Jediism has become like a tourist consumer trap.

You've said what it is that offends you, but why does it offend you? I'm not sure how to better put this... why do you let something that you see as wrong get to you so much? You seem to expect us to do something about your feeling of offense... Why do you expect us to change on your behalf?

You don't have to answer here... Just questions you might want to think about.

There are people that come here because of the films (many people), but only those who really connect with it as a path will stay. Anyone looking for fiction is unlikely to stick around. The people here, replying this thread, they believe in a spiritual path that is nothing to do with film.