Caged or Free?

Im not sure if any of you have heard of this, but, there is a reference to it in The Shawshank Redemption...

Red: [narrating] I wish I could tell you that Andy fought the good fight, and the Sisters let him be. I wish I could tell you that - but prison is no fairy-tale world. He never said who did it, but we all knew. Things went on like that for awhile - prison life consists of routine, and then more routine. Every so often, Andy would show up with fresh bruises. The Sisters kept at him - sometimes he was able to fight 'em off, sometimes not. And that's how it went for Andy - that was his routine. I do believe those first two years were the worst for him, and I also believe that if things had gone on that way, this place would have got the best of him.

Red: Would you knock it off? Brooks ain't no bug. He's just... just institutionalized.
Heywood: Institutionalized, my ass.
Red: The man's been in here fifty years, Heywood. Fifty years! This is all he knows. In here, he's an important man. He's an educated man. Outside, he's nothin'! Just a used up con with arthritis in both hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsiFanovOSI


Institutionalized...

To feel safe and secure in an controlled environment...

People obviously value different things... Many times, we debate gun control, healthcare, social topics, recently panhandling discussion...

I came across this on facebook...




The safety provided by the government is appealing to many... They prefer the safety of the cage, and boundaries, to know how to live their life...

A knight here at TOTJO said to me, "I prefer my role was defined so as to know my responsibilities and duties", Im paraphrasing... He wanted his boundaries set, it would seem...

But, its like renting or owning... If I rent, the responsibility is off of my shoulders... Broken water heater? Call landlord... Needs paint? Call landlord... Hole in roof? Call landlord...

What did I gain by buying a house? All these duties now fall on me, when I would rather be doing other things... Or, I have to figure out how to pay for them, which, if I was a renter, would be paid for by my rent, which is always a little more than a mortgage payment...

Anyway,

Is the caged bird free or the free bird free?

If I have no responsibility, then is not the caged bird more free?

I said somewhere else here recently, "Who is the 'slave', those in captivity by another, or he in self captivity to his charges?"

Im just talking out loud, I dont have an agenda, or point to make... Just pondering...

I guess, its how we define free...

Lau Tzu would say something like...
Neither the caged bird and the free bird are free. Both the caged bird and free bird are free.
I think he would say that something like that, and if not I said it.
Now forget that I said that and it will last forever.

Great movie btw!!! Love it

[quoteIm just talking out loud, I dont have an agenda, or point to make... Just pondering...... ][/quote]

Pondering is good. It's like exploring inner space.

I guess, its how we define free...

Don't go there. :laugh:

No one is free in the unlimite sense it would be chaos. There are always limits. I think what is key to happiness is can we find content with our limitations or are we driven to expand our limitations.

Just pondering.

Is will actually free?

The caged bird wouldn't know it wasn't free unless it tried to fly.
Why fly when everything is given to it right there?
Flying would take so much energy...

Reliah wrote: The caged bird wouldn't know it wasn't free unless it tried to fly.
Why fly when everything is given to it right there?
Flying would take so much energy...

Then the bird is content within it's limits. Who are we to sy it isn't.

My dog lives within her limits and she seems real happy.

In order to tackle that, you'd have to prove that there is an ultimate reality of freedom. But, I don't think there is. I think we each have a version of freedom beyond the trite maxims that attempt to cover and define the realities of all beings.

The government is not evil. It's rules and regulations help others and hurt some. The problem is that we each think the government is acting in our interest as Americans. While that's the idealistic method, I don't think it's a surprise when I tell you that the government is actually working in its own interest. The government has become an entity unto itself, and it shuns the wants of the people until they demand different. The government cannot and does not please everybody. It works for itself to create power and to protect its own from destruction (not out of selfless action; rather out of nationalism and pride). For some, the government happens to provide. For others, the government happens to take away.

Freedom comes in our willingness to subject ourselves to whatever the government imposes on us, and for each of us it is different.

We are both caged and free. Both are from our own choice.

Aren't all or most cages imposed on us by us?

The government (people) can tell me I must drive this speed, I must pay these taxes, I must work this job, and I must refrain from harming others. But, ultimately I can drive however fast I want, I can choose to keep all my money, I can choose to work here or there or not work at all, and I can choose to punch someone in the nose.

Freedom is in the mind. Freedom is always there.

As for the caged bird, we all like to be well fed and sheltered...but those same luxuries can also become a crushing burden. Right now we're taking care of a wild dove until it's wings heal (so a cat doesn't get him) and while I can tell he enjoys the food (really enjoys the food), toys, and shelter, he also seems to get a little stir crazy. The cage is large and he can hop around and fly short distances, but it's not the same as being outside and unhampered. His life is outside. Foraging, flying, mating.

Aren't all or most cages imposed on us by us?

Yes, exactly. These cages we put on ourselves are always our choice, but they can be as serious as life itself. Imagine you are put into slavery. The cage is that you stay there and work for somebody else's benefit without a benefit of your own. You choose to stay. You can attempt to leave, even if the chances are against you that you will survive...

Caged bird's who get released often return to the cage, which I thought was interesting. I guess its an example of conditioning overcoming evolved instinct.

maybe for some freedom isnt simply just a state of mind.
warning some viewers may find this distressing





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ACE-BBPRs

Perhaps our only true freedom is choice?

Donkey wrote: maybe for some freedom isnt simply just a state of mind.

I would think in that situation the mind would be most important. You can always choose how to react to something.

And I'm sure it's not any fun having a tube stuck down your nose, but that procedure is used in hospital settings too...and with less dramatics. Warning, this video is incredibly boring, but shows how a calm mind (the mindset you choose) can affect the procedure and your reaction to it.

Wendaline wrote:

Donkey wrote: maybe for some freedom isnt simply just a state of mind.

You can always choose how to react to something.

comes down to freedom, the guy in your video clearly was ok with this. he might feel different if he was forced to accept this implement into his own body against his will.

I think, no matter the rules or laws, we always have the ability to act as we want...

But, if society says its against the rules, lol, and you get caught, then you pay the price society says is penance...

Who doesnt want coddled, taken care of, less responsibility?

But, there's a cost...

For giving up our freedom of doing what we want.....

Of course, as we could fight for these rights, but, if not enough people care about a freedom, and it doesnt have enough supporters, then that freedom is lost...

Like motorcycle helmet law... Why must I wearca helmet because the law says? If I realize it could greatly increase my chances of not getting hurt, wouldn't, shouldn't I want to wear it? (We don't have a law, just picking a new law to play with besides abortion, gun control, or any of the mainstays, lol)

But, if I don't want to, shouldn't that be my right? Take it away, and make it law, then my grandchildren would be safe, right?

Just more talking.... lol...

Donkey wrote:

Wendaline wrote:

Donkey wrote: maybe for some freedom isnt simply just a state of mind.

You can always choose how to react to something.

comes down to freedom, the guy in your video clearly was ok with this. he might feel different if he was forced to accept this implement into his own body against his will.

I agree. My point was about freedom of mind. Even if something is happening against your will you have the freedom to choose how to respond. You can fight, you can calm down and accept it, or many number of things. Also, Mos Def was also a volunteer.

Donkey wrote: maybe for some freedom isnt simply just a state of mind.

That is the lack physical freedom. You are never free to "not eat" if somebody is forcing you. You can't DO anything about that, so you're better off just eating on your own.

Connor Lidell wrote:

Donkey wrote: maybe for some freedom isnt simply just a state of mind.

That is the lack physical freedom. You are never free to "not eat" if somebody is forcing you. You can't DO anything about that, so you're better off just eating on your own.

Freedom to accept oppression? I guess

Yeah, it sucks, but that's what happens when you try to force idealism into reality.

Connor Lidell wrote: Yeah, it sucks, but that's what happens when you try to force idealism into reality.

who is forcing who in a forced feeding?
Of the 169 suspects still stuck behind bars at one of the world’s most notorious jails, 87 have been long-approved for release, some as far back as during the George W Bush administration.