There is no truth...

Perceiving something does not make it true ...

Alexandre Orion wrote: Perceiving something does not make it true ...

True, no argument there but how do you determine truth without first perceving?

Well ... we don't even have to deal with truth for that.

According to Bentham, and later Hume, that is all there is. From an empiricist point of view, the world is because it is perceived and most knowledge about the world is induction. Why are we confident that things will happen in a certain way ? It is because we expect the future to behave like the past.

Needless to say, there are some flaws with this. But I'm not going to stand in the way of your voyage of discovery -- I'll let you find those flaws.

This is a paradoxical statement.

"There is no truth"

If that is the truth, then it falsifies itself.

If that is not the truth, then itself is falsified.

Rickie The Grey wrote:

Alexandre Orion wrote: Perceiving something does not make it true ...

True, no argument there but how do you determine truth without first perceving?

It doesnt automatically make it false either...

Well ... we don't even have to deal with truth for that.

According to Bentham, and later Hume, that is all there is. From an empiricist point of view, the world is because it is perceived and most knowledge about the world is induction. Why are we confident that things will happen in a certain way ? It is because we expect the future to behave like the past.

Well, this thread is about "truth"... lol...

When we let go of the past, and dont expect the future, all there is is "NOW",and that perception in the "NOW" is truth...

No judgement, no questions, only 'being'...

Beyond my thoughts, this entire outside world is subject to perception...

FOr me...

The first assumption (or meaning, or definition) regarding the meaning of truth is that, what is true describes a condition that is permanent, unchanging, universal. The traditional, philosophical discussion of truth distinguishes objects (ontology) and propositions about objects (epistemology) and applies to objects and things said about objects. The second assumption, is that truth assumes the existence of objects, and if there is truth, then it can only apply to our only too human assertions and propositions about objects. Objects are not true in themselves but are only so in our propositions about them. Propositions about objects can involve the property of truth and these assertions can have a universal quality. But these ideas assume a human perception and a human perspective and the moment a proposition is stated both the human perception/perspective and the object itself will have changed. Truth, then, cannot be applied to objects for they fail both assumptions. It is the case that what is true, changes, but again, this proposition fails the definition of truth. The property of ‘truth’ is not then permanent, unchanging or universal. When any definition of truth is questionable so also is the meaning of any concept to which the proposition ‘it is true’ could be applied. Acknowledgement: Nietzsche and Embodiment: Discerning Bodies and Non-dualism, by Kristen Brown, SUNY Press, 2006.

Proteus wrote: This is a paradoxical statement.

"There is no truth"
If that is the truth, then it falsifies itself.
If that is not the truth, then itself is falsified.

I was thinking the same thing. It's like saying "everything I tell you is a lie".

Alan wrote: The first assumption (or meaning, or definition) regarding the meaning of truth is that, what is true describes a condition that is permanent, unchanging, universal. The traditional, philosophical discussion of truth distinguishes objects (ontology) and propositions about objects (epistemology) and applies to objects and things said about objects. The second assumption, is that truth assumes the existence of objects, and if there is truth, then it can only apply to our only too human assertions and propositions about objects. Objects are not true in themselves but are only so in our propositions about them. Propositions about objects can involve the property of truth and these assertions can have a universal quality. But these ideas assume a human perception and a human perspective and the moment a proposition is stated both the human perception/perspective and the object itself will have changed. Truth, then, cannot be applied to objects for they fail both assumptions. It is the case that what is true, changes, but again, this proposition fails the definition of truth. The property of ‘truth’ is not then permanent, unchanging or universal. When any definition of truth is questionable so also is the meaning of any concept to which the proposition ‘it is true’ could be applied. Acknowledgement: Nietzsche and Embodiment: Discerning Bodies and Non-dualism, by Kristen Brown, SUNY Press, 2006.

Paradoxically...

Change, is a permanent state, not necessarily an object, but, could be called an object, if one considers a "state" as an object...

Therefore, change = truth...

lol...

all there is is "NOW",and that perception in the "NOW" is truth...

I think you nailed it.

of course it depends on how you define.....

Rickie The Grey wrote:

all there is is "NOW",and that perception in the "NOW" is truth...

I think you nailed it.

of course it depends on how you define.....

lol... :laugh:

Of course....

"If you are seeking an absolute truth you will not find it. Only truth that applies to you." -Oma Desala, Stargate SG1

That's the best think I can add to this

Adhara wrote: "If you are seeking an absolute truth you will not find it. Only truth that applies to you." -Oma Desala, Stargate SG1

That's the best think I can add to this

Bingo!

Streen wrote:

Proteus wrote: This is a paradoxical statement.

"There is no truth"
If that is the truth, then it falsifies itself.
If that is not the truth, then itself is falsified.

I was thinking the same thing. It's like saying "everything I tell you is a lie".

Hmm always open to the possibility/probability of being wrong but I don't think "everything I tell you is a lie is really a paradox. the first statement "There is no truth" like Proteus say's contradicts itself, the latter well...
To me I really agree (yes I'm biased Streen) that "everything I tell you is a lie". you can never really experience or absorb the whole "truth" of what I try and convey to you, I have my perceptions and my preconceptions which shape my experience of a person, thing or event. No matter how verbosely I describe an experience, or how open to my experience you are you will never have that exact experience. We might align to the point that as we try and convey a thought or experience we even describe it to people in the exact same words but your experience remains yours and mine remains mine, the best we can do is try and share those thoughts or experiences and hope that others can gain the same enjoyment, benefit or knowledge imparted by them. To me that doesn't make a contradiction.

Then again dude "everything I tell you is a lie"

Vergere82 wrote:

Streen wrote:

Proteus wrote: This is a paradoxical statement.

"There is no truth"
If that is the truth, then it falsifies itself.
If that is not the truth, then itself is falsified.

I was thinking the same thing. It's like saying "everything I tell you is a lie".

Hmm always open to the possibility/probability of being wrong but I don't think "everything I tell you is a lie is really a paradox. the first statement "There is no truth" like Proteus say's contradicts itself, the latter well...
To me I really agree (yes I'm biased Streen) that "everything I tell you is a lie". you can never really experience or absorb the whole "truth" of what I try and convey to you, I have my perceptions and my preconceptions which shape my experience of a person, thing or event. No matter how verbosely I describe an experience, or how open to my experience you are you will never have that exact experience. We might align to the point that as we try and convey a thought or experience we even describe it to people in the exact same words but your experience remains yours and mine remains mine, the best we can do is try and share those thoughts or experiences and hope that others can gain the same enjoyment, benefit or knowledge imparted by them. To me that doesn't make a contradiction.

Then again dude "everything I tell you is a lie"

The paradox is in the single statement...

If "everything I tell you is a lie", then the fact I say this to you, is also a lie, therefore I am telling the truth, which I cannot, because "Everything I tell you is a lie"...

I quite agree with the rest of your statement, but, this is the flip side of "There is not truth"...

Alexandre Orion wrote: -- I'll let you find those flaws.

The flaws I find are with me.

I have strong convictions (values) of what I believe is right/wrong, true/not true. Truth in my life is the cement that binds my morality. Saying (my) truth is really my perception forces me to think the perception of others (cultures and societies) are just as validly true as mine. There is the rub.

My truths can be in direct conflict with what others hold true due to their perceptions. For example: slavery, equality of the sexes, prearranged pre-teen marrage, dictators, kings, child labor, abortion, capital punishment, cast system. Just look around the world. It's easy to see cultures and practices baised on perceived truths that I abhor.

If I open my mind and reflect on things from anothers perception I can understand whay their world is the way it is and why they do what they do. So am I wrong? I can envision myself in the roll of the very things I am disgusted by. That's scary. Who is really right or wrong.

Maybe I should be a slaver or a dictator? There is good money in it. The strong always prey on the weak So why not? It is the way of things.

Now I'm not going off the deep end and changing my career. I'll still do what I think is true to my nature. I am flawed. I can live with that. I don't know all the answers. I've been living with that as well and seem to get by. I think too much, for all the good that will do me, but it keeps me entertained.

Rickie The Grey wrote:

Alexandre Orion wrote: -- I'll let you find those flaws.

The flaws I find are with me.

Are you saying the only flaws you find are within yourself?

I have strong convictions (values) of what I believe is right/wrong, true/not true. Truth in my life is the cement that binds my morality. Saying (my) truth is really my perception forces me to think the perception of others (cultures and societies) are just as validly true as mine. There is the rub.

My truths can be in direct conflict with what others hold true due to their perceptions. For example: slavery, equality of the sexes, prearranged pre-teen marrage, dictators, kings, child labor, abortion, capital punishment, cast system. Just look around the world. It's easy to see cultures and practices baised on perceived truths that I abhor.

If I open my mind and reflect on things from anothers perception I can understand whay their world is the way it is and why they do what they do. So am I wrong? I can envision myself in the roll of the very things I am disgusted by. That's scary. Who is really right or wrong.

There is no 'right and wrong'.. lol...

I think you identify with these things you abhor, and not with 'you'...

You are not these things, so why do you let them get to you? Can you do anything about them? Then do it...

No? Then why worry about it?

Maybe I should be a slaver or a dictator? There is good money in it. The strong always prey on the weak So why not? It is the way of things.

Lets see, constant care of the slaves would become a priority...

Feeding, medical, scraps for cloth... The time for these things, and money does not grow on trees...

Who is the 'slave', those in captivity by another, or he in self captivity to his charges?

Now I'm not going off the deep end and changing my career. I'll still do what I think is true to my nature. I am flawed. I can live with that. I don't know all the answers. I've been living with that as well and seem to get by. I think too much, for all the good that will do me, but it keeps me entertained.

You are not flawed!

You are the best 'Rickie the Grey' EVAR!!

Be all YOU can be!! :woohoo:

You'll never be as great a Jestor as I can be, for I am the best me I can be... And, when I find a flaw with myself, I deal with it...

Im always improving... :whistle:

I dont improve by the definitions of others, only by my own definition... :whistle: :evil: :whistle:

And what Jestor has written above is one of the best testimonies of Te (virtue) I've seen in a while.

I'm not beating myself up because I can understand anothers point of view, how their values evolved or why it works for them and do what they do. I am saying ones mans truths is anothers mans faults. You know the saying of walking in another mans shoes.

Never used the word only.

I do look into myself, as best as I can, and find some thoughts uncomfortable. That's the nature of reflection. When you try to be open minded lots of stuff can blow in. :woohoo: :silly:

I have a strong constitution. No worries nor concerns. I simple posted my thoughts from reflecting on the subject. I am flawed, I'm human. I accept that. We are all good.

Actually I like dictator best. :laugh:

There is no truth is almost like saying there is no spoon. The truth is based on one's point of view of the situation. However, a former Master of mine said that there are three sides to every story: your side, their side, and what really happened. Truth or facts are based on a collective bond of those who have the same or close to the same point of view with that subject.

Vergere82 wrote: To me I really agree (yes I'm biased Streen) that "everything I tell you is a lie". you can never really experience or absorb the whole "truth" of what I try and convey to you, I have my perceptions and my preconceptions which shape my experience of a person, thing or event. No matter how verbosely I describe an experience, or how open to my experience you are you will never have that exact experience. We might align to the point that as we try and convey a thought or experience we even describe it to people in the exact same words but your experience remains yours and mine remains mine, the best we can do is try and share those thoughts or experiences and hope that others can gain the same enjoyment, benefit or knowledge imparted by them. To me that doesn't make a contradiction.

Then again dude "everything I tell you is a lie"

Ah, a Traitor fan Indeed, everything everyone says is a lie because the truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it.