The Man Thread: a discussion (and celebration) of masculinity

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: In the first place toxic masculinity is not real

This is such a prevalent issue in our culture that I can't breeze by this without feeling the responsibility to ask you why you would make this kind of assertion. I have three questions: What is toxic masculinity to you? What is toxic masculinity to society? And, why do you think they don't exist?

Connor L. wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: In the first place toxic masculinity is not real

This is such a prevalent issue in our culture that I can't breeze by this without feeling the responsibility to ask you why you would make this kind of assertion. I have three questions: What is toxic masculinity to you? What is toxic masculinity to society? And, why do you think they don't exist?

These sorts of claims are no different than assertions that male privilege exists. There is just no evidence to support them. If you believe in toxic masculinity do you also believe toxic femininity?

For anything, there is a toxic version of it. Toxic Christianity, Toxic World of Warcraft Players, Toxic Car Drivers.

Its not a problem to be part of that group. The problem comes in taking the worst aspects of it and ramping it up to 12.

So yes. There is toxic masculinity and there is of course toxic femininity.

Arisaig wrote: So yes. There is toxic masculinity and there is of course toxic femininity.[/color]

Sorry but you are wrong. To emphasize group identity over individuality in a disparaging way is invalid because it causes cognitive bias.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: So yes. There is toxic masculinity and there is of course toxic femininity.[/color]

Sorry but you are wrong. To emphasize group identity over individuality in a disparaging way is invalid because it causes cognitive bias.

Never said anything about group identity, and in fact am pointing out individual decision. Read the entire post.

Great discussion, i may chime in eventually, myself. Not exacy consistent with the intended theme. Id like to request we take the debates about the existence of toxicity and prejudice to this thread

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/122143-debating-the-existence-of-toxic-masculinity-femininity

Arisaig wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: So yes. There is toxic masculinity and there is of course toxic femininity.[/color]

Sorry but you are wrong. To emphasize group identity over individuality in a disparaging way is invalid because it causes cognitive bias.

Never said anything about group identity, and in fact am pointing out individual decision. Read the entire post.

So can a female be guilty of toxic masculinity?

OB1Shinobi wrote: Great discussion, i may chime in eventually, myself. Not exacy consistent with the intended theme. Id like to request we take the debates about toxicity and prejudice to this thread

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/122143-debating-the-existence-of-toxic-masculinity-femininity

What is the intended theme? I posted a set of comments in that theme and was challenged. You have also been challenged in this thread. this seems to be a pervasive issue that I think is best addressed in this thread. People cant seem to celebrate this without inserting their own preconceived biases.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: Great discussion, i may chime in eventually, myself. Not exacy consistent with the intended theme. Id like to request we take the debates about toxicity and prejudice to this thread

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/122143-debating-the-existence-of-toxic-masculinity-femininity

What is the intended theme? I posted a set of comments in that theme and was challenged. You have also been challenged in this thread. this seems to be a pervasive issue that I think is best addressed in this thread. People cant seem to celebrate this without inserting their own preconceived biases.

Built into this thread is the presupposition that masculinity is fundamentally a good thing. Im not going to even acknowledge any challenge to that thesis, here. The purpose and premise of this thread is to acknowledge and clarify that goodness, not to debate it. This thread is meant to be a supportive and positive experience for everyone involved. Im also hoping to hear more peoples answers to the questions i posted (from both the men and the women) and allowing the topic to enter into the debate of toxicity will stifle that.

We may have to sort through the debate points first, but id like to keep the debates themselves separate, please.

My father stepped out of the picture when I was quite young. He came back, after a few years, but only phsycially. He was never really active in my life beyond supporting the family.

Mostly, I was raised by mother, with my sister, cousins (all female), my aunt, and my uncle (who is easily a definition of toxic masculinity).

So, as a result, I was left without male role models well into my life.

So, I ended up turning to books where I discovered Aragon, son of Arathorn.

To me, he is the hight of masculinity. He is strong, capable, dependable, loyal, and a leader (albeit unwillingly). But, he is also caring, passionate (openly mourning, kissing his friends, embracing his allies, not afraid to be seen as vulnerable). He can be tender and soft with those he loves, but also a stone wall to his enemies. He knows when to be quiet, and also when to charge in with a war cry on his lips.

Growing up, he was my hero. The movies only bolstered that image, Viggo portraying him masterfully.

Viggo portraying him masterfully

I find Viggo generally plays interesting characters, presumably he picks roles/characters he likes, identifies with, or would like to emulate.

The earliest, non-clicheic “masculine hero” i recall discovering was Atticus Finch, from To Kill a Mockingbird. He was, if not exactly a pacifist, generally opposed to the use of violence. He never seemed to want to prove his masculinity but he is shown from beginning to end to be courageous and honest and ethical. He was one of the first characters to show me that theres a real difference between being a good man and being a stereotypical “badass”.

Learning to “be a man” for me was never in juxtaposition to being a woman (I.e. there was no particular emphasis on not doing something because it was a “woman” thing). Instead, “being a man” was in juxtaposition to being a “boy”, so it was about the pride of transitioning from being a child to being an adult.

Thus, being a man to me has always been about being responsible. About being conscious that whatever life is for me and mine, it is because of my choices. And thus I am responsible for my choices, and have full power over using it for good, or for immature, destructive behavior (being a child).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_HL0wiK4Zc

I thought the same thing as Manu mentioned above this morning, that being a man is relevant to being a boy, and being a women is relevant to being a girl. So since masculinity cannot be types of man, because each person is different, it must best be the attributes of growing into an adult, for which the lions share would be the same for men and women. Though there are differences, but those differences do not define masculinity but rather individuality IMO. Conflating the two just serves to create or reinforce stereotypes which can be abused to miscast people who are immature (adulthood) or different (individuality). I think it serves everyone to know the difference and respect people with their individuality while also understanding people with their maturity (or more saliently, lack of it). So I would consider that actually a function of maturity, which tends to promote empathy, which then tends to reinforce humanistic concepts - while the opposite of course reinforcing the plethora of self centered egoism.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

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No that type of act was and is called heroism not “masculine”

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

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Who wrote his ? This is key to finding and making the distinction between character and toxicity.

These statements are why we have problems in American society

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Who wrote his ? This is key to finding and making the distinction between character and toxicity.
These statements are why we have problems in American society

This is not the "critique my meme thread" Carlos. Stop disparaging my posts in the celebrating masculinity thread. You want to debate the merits then read the directions and get over to the debating toxic masculinity thread.