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17 Sep 2018 18:27 #326369 by Erinis
question for all was created by Erinis
Interesting question here

Today I just go for a walk to the forest park and listen the Alan Watts,
And I saw one girl, who hit his dog, because he didn´t follow her lead.

Suddenly come on my mind > if is possible to bring up the children without manner punishment and rewar?
.
This manner of behavior wich we learn in the childhood ´ve got negative influence on our lifes, even we are adults. The problem is that we ´ve got habit to punish ourself for every small mistake. More than once for same mistake.
When we grow up ´ve don´t need anyone else to punish us because we do it as well (we are great domesticate person).

I am looking forward to your opinions.

inspiring by /Four agreement/ - Miguel Ángel Ruiz

Erinis;))°

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17 Sep 2018 18:35 #326371 by Arisaig
Replied by Arisaig on topic question for all
I don't think its possible, even if as a parent you go out of your way to not punish or reward them. Why? Because society will. Humans are naturally social animals and strive to fit in because its easier and they don't want to be singled out. So if they stray from the norm, they are 'punished' in a sense. They've viewed as weird, outcasts, a mite crazy perhaps. And rather than put up with that punishment, or at least after going though such a punishment, they try to fit in. They are then rewarded for doing as such, becoming brought up as a product of their time, location, ect. Sometimes me punish ourselves for something even if no one else cares. Its the domestication of the human race.

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17 Sep 2018 18:41 #326372 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic question for all
It is possible - anything is - it it easy - shakes my head ! Have I myself done it ? Sadly I have not. My own personal practice with my kids is minimal amount of “force” as possible. So far so good! It does make me think a lot and change a lot of me - Defiantly not passing or displaying alot of what I received. - so I can say I’ve made a new person and I look foward to see what they bring !

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17 Sep 2018 22:42 #326385 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic question for all
Probably, but I think for kids the dominant heuristic in the absence of mimicry is trial and error, if I had to guess, and so a parent can soften that particular process by managing a softer error feedback to spare the kid making too many mistakes too often. A risk of that is the kid doesn't understand or accept the lesson and keeps trying until they themselves experience the error and that a notion of rebellion manifests which distracts the kid from that process such that they might end up getting deeper into error then they might have otherwise if it was purely about the process alone. Another risk might be that it could reduce the lessons that could come of the process. So maybe there is a place for it, but its an easy thing to abuse.

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25 Sep 2018 15:19 #326929 by Locksley
Replied by Locksley on topic question for all
I think, much the same as most people (I suppose) that it's a line to walk. I don't think physical "force" should be used -- but in many cases physical restraint needs to be used for the child's own safety. I don't like, at all, those parents who opt to use leashes for their two-year-olds (psychological issues for later in life often develop between two and four or five), but I can understand the fear-response in parents that makes them use that method of control.

Delving off, a little bit, I do think that parental fear is part of the problem -- and a larger part than even the use of reward/punishment tactics (depending on the severity of such tactics, of course). It is a dangerous world, and parents in urban environs are right to be concerned, but at the same time there will never not be a massive element of risk in life. You can try to prepare your child well for that risk (but, of course, if you yourself have poor abilities then you can't even know that you're passing on poor advice and habits to your kids -- something I've seen a lot). And, while you can try to prepare your kids, you can only do so much. They do need to be free and learn their own lessons; make their own mistakes. In this there lies a certain requirement for the parent to let go of their attachment to their child -- their immediate attachment -- for the sake of a healthier child and a healthier relationship between parent and child. (One of the reasons I promote forest kindergartens so much).

But returning to the specific at hand: at least one one cognitive and philosophical level, no, it's not possible to raise a child without various degrees of promotion and negation of those activities and actions the parent finds objectionable or laudable. We are animal creatures of habit. That said, I think many of the more extreme forms of punishment/reward come from a dark place in the parent (either fear for the child or some other, more personal fear that the adult is unaware they are acting from). Punishment, especially, can seem like the best tactic at times of high stress -- when, for instance, the parent requires the child to behave a certain way for their safety. There are also certain ages where a child simply cannot receive detailed verbal information about why something is "good" or "bad," and therefore the parent is forced to rely on other methods (tone of voice, physical removal from situation, etc.)

Really, I think it's down to the parent to try to understand their own motivations/fears/internal state. it's asking a lot, since most societies don't teach that sort of skill to the wide populace, but it is, I think, the place to start. In lieu of that advanced work done by a parent, the next best thing (at least in the US) would be to find a very good school -- preferably not a public one, sad as that is to have to write -- where the specific training in how to be a better little human being can be fostered (certain charter Waldorf schools might be a good choice since the State charter keeps them from adding in creepy religious nonsense while allowing the rest of the education to be concentrated on personal and interpersonal skills).
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25 Sep 2018 16:38 #326933 by Kit
Replied by Kit on topic question for all
I raised three kids since I was 10, and now I have one of my own who's almost four.

Human leaning process is based in punishment and reward. Think about it. You need to eat, so you are punished by your own body if you don't. And you are rewarded by the feeling of pleasure when you eat the things your body thinks it needs most (which isn't so much a problem in modern times). The majority (I want to say entirety but I'm not thinking well enough to think of good counters) of our cultures are based off of punishment and reward. Shoot, look at the majority of our entertainment! Video games are a prime example of feeding that reward center. Our brains are even wired to reward us when we do (what we feel is) nice things for other people. You can even get a second-hand reward by watching someone help someone else! That's all meant to bind us closer together as a community to survive the harsh realities of the world.

When it comes to raising kids, it's about properly aplying that punishment and rewawrd system, as well as redirection. When Magpie yells for the simple joy of yelling, it shoots my anxiety up sky-high. So I tell her she can't yell HERE, she needs to use her inside voice. But she can go yell in her room or outside. It's interesting, she's three years old and you can see her thinking about it. Sometimes she decides she'd rather be around me. Othertimes she'd rather go off and yell. That's a good redirection with options given while setting clear boundries.

It gets pretty complicated because you've gotta watch why kids do what they do. I think half the time kids misbehave it's becuase that's an easy way they've found they can get attention. Possibly meaning that those who hold the parent role aren't giving the attention that the child needs. The child's brain is getting the social attention reward by getting the parent's attention when misbehaving (which is usualy fun too). If they're not getting the attention elsewhere, they'll get it there.

Even that's simplified. Sorry I'm not working well today so I feel like I'm not explaining myself well. But you're right, the systems of punishment and reward we learned as kids, we'll continue as adults. I, for example, have much of my reward system tied up in food. And then I beat myself up over it for not having the disciplin to not get that oreo shake. yay! ;) So keeping that in mind while raising kids, find other avenues of reward and punishment. Not that treats or stickers are bad rewards, but there are other things too. Like going to the lake! or going to the pet store! Or getting to stay up a little later, or playing a board game, or getting some time to play on her phone. All depends on the person
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