The Knights Code

OB1Shinobi wrote: I was referencing the dragonheart version. I like that one even better, thank you.

I kind of like the one that was used in Kingdom of Heaven.

I always remember a Sunday morning cartoon "King Arthur and the Knights of Justice" where they would all recite their code and then they would get magical powers to help them kick ass, kind of like how the Power Rangers call their Zords.

(Arthur) I am King Arthur...
(answered) And we are the Knights of Justice.
(All) We pledge fairness to all
To protect the weak
And to vanquish the evil!
(Arthur) Excalibur, be my strength! (raises sword and a bunch of magical stuff happens as the regular dudes turn into the Knights of Justice)

It is kind of lame now, but as a kid, it inspired me.

BONUS: Here's the cool '80s metal intro to the cartoon:

Alexandre Orion wrote:

Exercise 5:B
The Knights' Code

A Knight is sworn to valour. – discretion ( - is the better part of … )
His heart knows only virtue ; – balance, virtue ethics ; not concerned with virtuousness
His blade defends the helpless ; – blade ~ discernment ; helpless (?)
His word speaks only truth ; – application of honesty, not “brutal” truth-telling, not truth-wielding …
His Shield shelters the forsaken ; – shield ~ compassion ; forsaken (?)
His courage gives hope to the despairing ; – courage ~ example > 'hope' – possibilities
His justice undoes the wicked ; – Justice (morality/fairness) , wicked (?)
His image brings peace ; – image (iconic/symbolic), dynamic peace
His code breaks the darkness ; – codified, there is an order to it, organic though it may be ; the darkness of 'disorder' ; Cosmogonic myth
His legend brings light. – the Heroic Cycle provides clarity on the ups/downs of Life.

When we consider the Knights' Code, we would be cautious to not allow ourselves to be persuaded – and thus flattered – by the common sense/common knowledge understanding of the what the terms in it evoke. There is never a full conscious comprehension of the values engaged ; we must relax into the constant and conscientious self-learning (examined Life) in order to embody, as best one may, the ascribed characteristics of a Knight according to the Code. Better than what one 'thinks' of the qualities of a man, the simple, patient and compassionate openness to wisdom is the better stance from which to honour the Knights' Code.

Valour, to which we are sworn, has as its “better part” wisdom. Yet, as we have erstwhile shown, wisdom is never permanently 'acquired'. We may train ourselves to a more reliable openness to moments of wisdom, but it is not a quality that can be possessed. How much of Valour can we be sworn to if its better part cannot be appropriated ? Such it is by the instance of Courage providing “Hope to the despairing”, when 'Our hearts know only Virtue.' What does this mean ? As Socrates explained, to augment the eyes by adding sight, we must first know what is 'sight'. It is the same for the augmentation of character by adding 'goodness' (Virtue), we must know what is 'goodness'. Virtue ethics can give us some more or less reliable indicators of how to balance out our shortcomings, but it does require prudent examination of one's faculties. Without this examination, a heart that knows only Virtue by being certain of it, tends to become heavy and paralysed by its own determination to being seen as good. The highest Virtue is to be human-hearted – not concerned with 'being virtuous'. Thus, the heart that “knows only Virtue” would never be grounded in a conscientious attention to Virtue – or preoccupied by being Virtuous -, but simply in being a human-heart.

The iconic Blade also must be carefully chosen, since there is no such thing as “just” a metaphor. Metaphors have to be quite shrewdly negotiated, since their meanings are always allegorically derived. The Blade of the Knight could essentially be the same as that of the Bandit (which could also defend the 'helpless'). The Blade we carry is that same one as seen in the symbolic representation of Justice ; it is that of “discernment”, which cuts away the corrupt, the false, the extraneous … all of the things which render one 'helpless' when crippled by them. This is no small exercise ; the Blade must serve Justice, yet she is blind. This does not only indicate that she is impartial to personal identities, social stations and means, but also that she cannot see herself. The balance scale she holds tips from one to the other side and is but momentarily clearly level (things are never perfectly “fair”). Hence, the Knight's Justice which undoes the 'wicked' cannot be prescribed by a revealed Code (neither the Knights' Code, nor the Jedi Code – since neither are wrought from 'divine revelation'). This is an embedded metaphor then, for the Blade must be used also to discover the Justice which it in turn may be used to enforce … The 'wicked' that one's Justice undoes may effectively be one's own maliciousness, in knowing how to act.

A Knight is honest. Honesty, being an application of the degree of Truth to which one may be privileged, is never used for brutality (shaming) and only to the extent whereby it is serviceable. There is no virtue in Truth-telling when it causes undue suffering for someone else, nor would this be a measure of honesty. It could be surmised that the Word in excess of that which is warranted is no longer either True nor Honest. Thus, the Knight's Word is discrete. This goes with the application of the Blade as well, for True-ish factors cunningly arranged through clever discernment to manipulate or to extort are not Honesty nor in any way worthy of the integrity of a Knight. The caution against feeling oneself 'virtuous' and thus abusing the virtues comes by echo of the ancient adage : “When the right means are used by the wrong man, the right means work in the wrong way.”

The Image of the Knight can only bring Peace if the Image cast is a true one – that of the qualities of the wo/man that casts the Image. For the iconic Image to be (close to) accurate, the Knight him/herself must not hold on too tightly to it ; one must do the 'right thing' because this is what a Knight would do, not what “my” reputation as a knight is founded upon. For any Peace to be brought from the symbol of the Knight, then the one embodying the symbol would need a Peace-ful centre from which to act. Conversely, the man/woman embodying the symbol remains a human being, replete with the quality/virtue of human-heartedness – a quality that is far from Peace-ful or Peace bringing from time to time … The Peace that one looks to the Knight to assure could very well come under scrutiny. Peace and contention are 'identical differences' : coincidentia oppositorum which can only be recognised in apposition to the essential condition of the other. The Image of the Knight then would be seen as the Warrior who brings Peace. This would uphold both notions of the paradox.

As mentioned above, The Code is not a divine revelation, but it is a more descriptive – rather than 'prescriptive' – device by which one can recall an organisation to the 'darkness' (chaos). The Legend of the Knight, the ensemble of symbols which evoke (or partially even invoke) the qualities of the Hero in the collective subconscious, can, when one can provide clarity into much of the absurd muck that the world-wasteland stirs up in our Lives. Thereby, the essential desire to embody these legendary qualities and a conscientious attention to observe what “is” rather than what “should be” can indeed, for the well-trained Jedi Knight, provide a conduit of Light to be shown to those whose eye have been augmented by “sight”.

Matters for contemplations ...

Dang it. Ob1 beat me to the Dragonheart reference. I feel like that version was just shortened to cut time and make it easier for kids to remember, but it's still my favorite version as well.

As much as I like the Knights Code I do not think that it needs to be an official part of the doctrine, at least not until Knighthood. It speaks of a slightly higher calling and sense of duty. It's not for everyone and shouldn't have to be. Although those below the rank of Knight are welcome to use it as a part of their interpretation of the doctrine. That's why it's a bonus exercise in the doctrine lesson and I like it's place there.

If we want to add it to the doctrine page I feel it should be preceded by something mentioning that the study, understanding, and upholding of it is only required of Knights but is encouraged of all.

Goken wrote: If we want to add it to the doctrine page I feel it should be preceded by something mentioning that the study, understanding, and upholding of it is only required of Knights but is encouraged of all.

I'm totally on board with that - I understand and agree that it needn't be made officially part of the main doctrine per se, as something expected of all, because yes, not all would shoot for knighthood.

But yes, while the High Ideals should be encouraged of all (or, at extreme least, not be unavailable for encouraging contemplation... even if not the ultimate destiny of every Jedi, at least an indication of the direction of the road to travel, wherever upon one may find their place), it should be mentioned that such would only be asked of those who are Jedi, who further strive for Jedi Knighthood.

And again, in the end, it really doesn't matter what page it be on, or what words it sits next to - the main importance, I feel, is just that it is available to be seen *somewhere*, and not stumbled upon only when hunting it down. For it to be found in the IP is great - it's good and appropriate - but *only* found in that fashion? How many might consider knighthood, if only they knew more than that term? How many knights-in-heart might go unrealized simply because they know not what truly makes one a knight? Let a prize shine, I say, for those that may catch a glimpse of what they mightn't otherwise have known their hearts truly yearned to become until such realization upon seeing it.

Let it not be hidden even from casual view, the ultimate potential possibility - even stating it be optional for those who seek such as their aim.

There be those who might yet not see they'd truly wish to aim for such, had the thing not yet been understood

For additional consideration; wherever it may be posted (would it become so), for sake of ease of illustration let's just say it were included on the doctrine page... yes, at the end - yes, stating that it only be required of those specifically seeking knighthood... it occurs to me that it would also serve to clarify ambiguity.

There are those who may think that being Jedi means, necessarily, striving for knighthood - and those who may think/feel/are under the impression that if not a knight, then not a "real Jedi". I think it would serve those well who can feel confirmed that not being a knight does NOT make one any less a Jedi, any less real, etc. - this may seem a vaguely silly idea to some of us (or perhaps not), but such thoughts are being had out there.

Minds need to be set at ease on this. Having the Knight's Code seen along with the clarification that such would only be expected of those Jedi specifically seeking knighthood would, in plain sight of all, serve to do just that.

Wescli Wardest wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: I was referencing the dragonheart version. I like that one even better, thank you.

I kind of like the one that was used in Kingdom of Heaven.

I agree... I do like both, and when I heard mention of the former, I immediately thought of the latter

I've always thought it was part of the doctrine.... because firstly the doctrine at TotJO is not a doctrine of being a Jedi, the doctrine of TotJO is the doctrine of being Jedi at TotJO, and secondly the main reason being that since doctrine differs from protocol/policy in that doctrine requires "judgement in application". As such no part of the doctrine is applicable to all members all the time, but there might be times when a Novice needs to act like a Knight... and this is where the doctrine serves the entire membership.

I have not spoken out my own opinion about this so far.. :blush: One cannot become a Knight, one is or is not, there is no way in between. The Knight exists thus is not made but acknowledged, an Apprentice should learn the Knight code before 'becoming' a Knight in my opinion if it is to be acknowledged as a Knight. It would be no surprise that I know the Tenets, Code, Knights Code and Creed out of my head, but so do many... well.. I guess I just like to read the Doctrine and want more to read ehm... also having a bit difficulty with remembering the Teachings and Maxims.. :blush: A longer Doctrine does not mean that it is going into extreme detail like some other religious books.. :dry:

The Knights Code would fit well with the ,,What skills/competencies/mindsets are needed to be a Jedi Knight?'' thread, let it be a founding element and thus part of the Doctrine. The fact that people read the doctrine different is reason enough that it will not limit one his journey. Becoming a Knight+following the Knights Code is a choice after/within the choice of becoming a Temple Member. This is my opinion only of course, not fixed in stone.. :lol:

Thought I might offer my own interpretation of this as it seems so pertinant to the path... I hope it helps... or gives extra perspective!:

The Knights Code


A Knight is sworn to valor.
People really need to come to terms with dedication, duty and the privilege of serving others. Valor is paramount in being able to face the things we have to sometimes when serving as knights. And it will be hard, take crap tons of inner strength and valor:

Valor: Definition of valor:
:strength of mind or spirit that enables a person to encounter danger with firmness : personal bravery: I think this is very important when addressing any code: the bravery of breaking thru social conditioning, of being ones self, of our unique soul expression on the personal side: to standing up for human rights, defending the weak against violence and assuring strength in times of need. As far as actually facing danger this can be perceived as facing reality no matter how hard it gets, no matter how bad it is, and no matter how tired we are of dealing with the same issues... what matters here is our resiliance... I see valor as a kind of integral resiliance that makes us whom we are: Our core strength so to speak: Our very instinct for life. That which drives us to survival and that which makes up the very basis of our raw ego: or will to fight, not run from life, problems, danger or anything else of that nature... its real in this sense: Valor: Our dedication to facing life no matter what. Duty to protecting life no matter what and well not a privlage to do so but a honor...

His heart knows only virtue;
This starts with the three tenets, undoing what we have learned and what the world has taught us. There will always be some things that coincide. But there are some that rather we realize it or not, corrupt our very way of thinking and in turn how our hearts are motivated to action:

I call this Wisdom from the heart... I dont think we would be human without it: Its basic common empathy and exists well right within our heart! What I know is that its a living breathing and embodying urge to love those whom you love, serve those whom you love and well sacrifice anything we have for those whom are intimate to use: immediate family, yes its true this can extend to nation and well of course the whole planet: I think the more enlightened you are: the more flexible you become in applying global morals and ethics to the whole: IE: Serving the whole... I beleive that the heart is where we channel gods will if its anything to be integral with love, and the place whereby we find the highest wisdom: that of serving the collective despite our bodily needs, our lives and well our planet and world!

His blade defends the helpless;
When one has done the lesson on the Blade, this will make more sense:

The blade: Not sure about this I am just a novice: I think I would refer to this as the edge: Our own personal and deepest realization of the truth: our capacity for depth, in well: defending humanity from madness...

His word speaks only truth;
I could go into a several page sermon on according to natural law, almost all crimes or sins boil down to theft. One of the things that is stolen is truth. When one lies, is misinformed, not informed… Not speaking truth, steals from others. Their knowledge, security, world views, freedoms and very lives. When I man lies, he does murder some part of the world:

Truth is an essential aspect of any religion... required for growth. I like the old zen way of approaching it: keep it simple, defined and refined for most effective expression of it...

His Shield shelters the forsaken;
We should have a lesson on the shield. A shield is a tool that most people think of as only a defensive piece of equipment. It is so much more than that. It is a banner to declare to the world who you are. What you stand for. It is protection. And it is one of the deadliest weapons in a knight’s arsenal. Yes, a shield. Even on the battle field, I would rather have a shield only than a sword only. Who would need someone to shelter them with such a powerful tool more than the forsaken? How many of you actually know what forsaken means and who those people are?:

We should care for every human being on the planet not just our immediate loved ones: but those that are gay with HIV or dieing of cancer... disabled or troubled...

His courage gives hope to the despairing;
Be the example! Each of you should really look at this one. It’s pretty powerful:

Seek I guess to uplift humanity not tear it down!

His justice undoes the wicked;
For me, this is easy to understand because I look at it from the standing of the laws of attraction and the principles of natural law. And I will leave all of you with that clue to go for yourself, look into it and come to your own conclusions. I hope your journey into this line of thought is as eye opening as it was for me.

His image brings peace;
Now we begin to see how all of the parts already mentioned begin to formulate how the world will come to see you as a Knight. And the effect you can have on the world:

A strong leader has a strong image: Its part of leading... they role model success...

His code breaks the darkness;
The darkness, again, referring to truth, knowledge and natural law… if one were to look at truth and knowledge as being “in the light” and the absence of knowledge, the universal truths, as being in the dark, it begins to become very clear:

The Jedi Honor prayer: defines this: serve the light: be one with it... let it run thru you... for life...

His legend brings light.
Considering all I have said already and anything you look up that I have mentioned, I will leave this one up to YOUR interpretation:

Be your own personal legend, why not?

One thing needs to remain very clear in this discussion. Not all Jedi are here to be Knights, but the Doctrine covers all who take an Oath to TOTJO, regardless of whether they are Knights or not. Putting the Knight's Code in the Doctrine would add one more piece to it that many would not believe in or be comfortable following at the beginning of their journey here. When one reaches the point of becoming a TOTJO Knight, only then are they truly prepared to determine for themselves if they are ready to follow the Knights Code, just as only then are they prepared to take the Solemn Vow. The Knight's Code is for Knights to follow. Period. Asking anyone else to consider it before they are a Knight is akin to asking a 12 year old to drive a car because they hope to have a driver's license some day. They can study driving all they want, but until they take the test and pass, they aren't a licensed driver. Let's take this one step at a time, please.

Senan wrote: . The Knight's Code is for Knights to follow. Period. Asking anyone else to consider it before they are a Knight is akin to asking a 12 year old to drive a car because they hope to have a driver's license some day. They can study driving all they want, but until they take the test and pass, they aren't a licensed driver. Let's take this one step at a time, please.

Ok feel free to answer this in PM if you feel it derails this thread or goes too far from the original topic but should not one start acting like a Knight to the best of their ability from the time the start Apprenticeship aka the first step on the path to Knighthood? If that is the case then should not all Apprentices look to the Knights Code?

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: . The Knight's Code is for Knights to follow. Period. Asking anyone else to consider it before they are a Knight is akin to asking a 12 year old to drive a car because they hope to have a driver's license some day. They can study driving all they want, but until they take the test and pass, they aren't a licensed driver. Let's take this one step at a time, please.

Ok feel free to answer this in PM if you feel it derails this thread or goes too far from the original topic but should not one start acting like a Knight to the best of their ability from the time the start Apprenticeship aka the first step on the path to Knighthood? If that is the case then should not all Apprentices look to the Knights Code?

Acting like a Knight does not make one a Knight. Following the Knight's Code does not make one a Knight. One can act like a Knight at any time on their path, but that does not make them beholden to that Code. I can act like a priest and I can study what they do, but any code or vow or oath they have does not apply to me, whether I follow it or not, until I am ordained as a priest. What is at risk here is people choosing to study and follow a code that does not apply to them yet, then potentially abondoning it when it is no longer convenient without any consequence. A Knight does not have that option once they vow to uphold the title, nor should they. Encouraging people to strive toward the ideals represented in the Code is great, but I would assume a Teaching Master would do that as part of Apprenticeship. There's no need to put it elsewhere. It is a nugget of wisdom that will be discovered by those who put the effort in to uncover it.

Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: . The Knight's Code is for Knights to follow. Period. Asking anyone else to consider it before they are a Knight is akin to asking a 12 year old to drive a car because they hope to have a driver's license some day. They can study driving all they want, but until they take the test and pass, they aren't a licensed driver. Let's take this one step at a time, please.

Ok feel free to answer this in PM if you feel it derails this thread or goes too far from the original topic but should not one start acting like a Knight to the best of their ability from the time the start Apprenticeship aka the first step on the path to Knighthood? If that is the case then should not all Apprentices look to the Knights Code?

Acting like a Knight does not make one a Knight. Following the Knight's Code does not make one a Knight. One can act like a Knight at any time on their path, but that does not make them beholden to that Code. I can act like a priest and I can study what they do, but any code or vow or oath they have does not apply to me, whether I follow it or not, until I am ordained as a priest. What is at risk here is people choosing to study and follow a code that does not apply to them yet, then potentially abondoning it when it is no longer convenient without any consequence. A Knight does not have that option once they vow to uphold the title, nor should they. Encouraging people to strive toward the ideals represented in the Code is great, but I would assume a Teaching Master would do that as part of Apprenticeship. There's no need to put it elsewhere. It is a nugget of wisdom that will be discovered by those who put the effort in to uncover it.

That is a risk at any time though. However, I get what you are going for here. I just view it as act like the job you want not the job you are in. If that makes sense.

One cannot become a Knight, one is or is not, there is no way in between. The Knight exists thus is not made but acknowledged

I would disagree with this - Is a 5 year old an engineer, or a gymnast, or a pilot?

Some people may have qualities that suit one thing or another or be predisposed toward a behaviour or set of skills (in this case, Jedi Knight I suppose) - That does not necessarily make them that thing, complete and whole, from the get go.

Ok feel free to answer this in PM if you feel it derails this thread or goes too far from the original topic but should not one start acting like a Knight to the best of their ability from the time the start Apprenticeship aka the first step on the path to Knighthood? If that is the case then should not all Apprentices look to the Knights Code?

Yes and No - Whilst it may be the end goal, when you are an initiate you should focus on the qualities of a good initiate, when you are an apprentice you focus on the qualities of an apprentice.

Each "step" includes all the aspects of the steps before it - So a knight is still a good student, but good student need not necessarily be a knight.


I hope I said that somewhat conherently.

I'm not sure our doctrine is currently divided into stages, instead the headings of each items represent its scope. But nah, to me the 'title' is just an external recognition of something.To get a pilots license I'd recommend learning the theory before taking the lessons. I knew how to fly before I knew how to drive, and before I could drive or fly. Indeed you have to demonstrate flying solo before you get the license. I think its doctrinal and not policy, so see no reason it wouldn't be in the doctrine for my reasons posted on the last page. But again, I don't mind... my path is full of doctrine which is not here. So to me the question is are those attributes of the Knight Code used to determine an Apprentice moving into Knighthood, and if so the only reason I would imagine they would not be in the doctrine is if they were kept secret as a test to assess if those qualities are naturally being displayed in the candidate. So if it wasn't in the doctrine, then I wouldn't have it anywhere not accessible to Knights... else it doesn't make much sense in how'd I'd view the balance of things.. and that is ok!

To get a pilots license I'd recommend learning the theory before taking the lessons. I knew how to fly before I knew how to drive, and before I could drive or fly. Indeed you have to demonstrate flying solo before you get the license.

I mean, I was trying to use it as some kind of metaphor. I wasn't really catering to the Jedi Pilot crowd...:silly:

I live in the SA/NT - As far as giving out licences goes, we roll with a more... "If you believe in yourself" system rather than the Pass/Fail that most of the other states employ :whistle:

I'm not sure our doctrine is currently divided into stages

I'm not sure how many conversations are going on here...

Anyway, not being a knight myself - is the Knight's code part of it, or is giving your understanding of "A" knights code just part of a question to see what yon initiate does with it?

I don't really see an implicit link between the Doctrine as per the Doctrine page, and the Knight's code as per the question in the IP....


the Knights Code is...far more militant than the tone in the Doctrine.....

The "just be a Knight regardless" argument is akin to something oft said in martial arts: Train as if you were a black belt and the belt will come.
That's all fine and dandy, but it really only applies at around the probationary black belt level, or possibly the level below that. It's hardly applicable to the white belt that just walked in the door.

Whilst it is nice to have access to the Knights' Code when you reach a point in your training that Knighthood becomes an achievement somewhere on the horizon, it's less useful to a member that joins simply to be part of the community. A member in training can certainly aspire to live by the Knights' code, but it's not a requirement (nor should it be) until attaining Knighthood. Which is fine, it allows for the occasional mis-step without significant concern for consequence.

Honestly, as someone for whom Knighthood is a distant aspiration, including the Knights' Code in the doctrine would simply make things more convoluted. Between the Code, Tenets, Maxims, etc. I feel there's enough to commit to memory and to aspire to 'living' without adding the Knights' Code to the mix. In my opinion, leave it where it is in the latter stages of the IP as bonus material or include it in the Apprenticeship program and that is enough. For the sake of transparency, perhaps make a separate article in the library (I haven't checked if it's already there) and simply link to the article from the doctrine for those who desire further reading.

The Jedi faith and this Order are founded upon the acknowledgement, the wonder, the curiosity ... (as a 'belief' or just as a 'hintergedanke') in or/and about the Force. It is organised around a reverence for Life, from the smallest pre-biotic molecular event to the un-fathomable universe in its entirety. Over the relatively brief span of human existence - our species of human, that is (after all, our species is the only one remaining out of at least six that we co-existed with before) - we have organised our wonder about the ways the world (whatever its scope) works and all the 'whys' that go with that wonder into myriad systems of exploitation. Similar existential beliefs are one of the primary elements for fostering social cohesion ; it allows groups of people who do not know one another intimately to cooperate on a large scale.

The reason I began with this is because throughout history, the title, the roles and duties, of (a) Knight are extremely recent, but the symbol - and the sense behind it - which alludes to our icon of the Knight dates back to when we were first telling stories to figure out (hence "organise") the world. In other words, the most ancient stories told of the heroic acts of men and women who brought order and peace to the hostile and chaotic landscape. For as spiritually lofty as terms like Chaos and Cosmos sound, they imply merely the organisation of the un-known into a known (more or less) order : to move from disorder to order. In any population of living organisms, there are some that exhibit an aptitude at this organisational capacity more than others, whether it be killing monsters, evil-doers or infidels.

The reason why this mythic icon is so lively even now is that we are still in the wilderness -- even more so than just 70 years ago. Our world has been transformed by that very same cooperation between people(s) with similar enough beliefs (in money and commerce) that we have gone in just a century from an obscene infant mortality, rampant pre-mature deaths of adults (the average life-span of an adult man at the turn of the 20th Century was 42) to those numbers being at an all-time low ; we have engineered and refined our transportation and telecommunications technologies and networks into very secure, very safe and very effective means of being able to interact with a very large segment of the planetary population of humans daily/hourly/minute by minute. The result : our chaos is turned inward... Our species has 'mastered' the planet (and without the 'mastery' to have done are soiling our own unique nest), but we have not yet adapted to sharing a world with 7 billion other human dwellers while taking into consideration the symbiosis of all the other expressions of Life. Long story short : all our knowledge has generated even more 'whys' than we had when we were living as intimate groups of hunter-gatherers on the plains ....

One will notice that although hunter-gatherer societies were perhaps more egalitarian, they were not democracies ; the concept didn't even exist. "Fair and unfair" were indeed considerations that they didn't do any better with than we do in the 21st Century, but hell, even Chimpanzees and Bonobos (our quite close cousins) do one another dirty turns rather frequently -- and get punished for it by the group. The tales of the Hero were not ones that promised that everyone could be elected "Hero". Indeed, the Hero was often one who found himself in the position of having to learn a different response to something from within a set of circumstances where the usual/ordinary methods didn't work by taking part from the commonly known/commonly believed ways of the group (adventuring thus away from the normal set of influences shared by the group - or perhaps s/he was a stranger to the group) to discover other ways of bringing the situation under control (curbing the hunger, disease, hostility &c). Throughout all these centuries of storytelling, some characteristics of the Hero (strength, integrity, honesty, altruism and the like) have come along to us with the symbolic figure.

These days, in the industrialised-digitised parts of the world, we do not have to deal too much with hunger, disease and hostility. For even as brutal as the news services tell us the world is, we run much more of a risk of suicide (wrought by some internal, subjective chaos) than being done in by human-perpetrated violence -- except those "violences" that are of an egotistical nature, psychological cruelty &c. Naturally, there are accidents and chronic illnesses that do us in too - but these are not the same dis-order as chaos. In fact, they've been normalised ...

Now, what does all this have to do with the Knights' Code ?

We have been talking about cars and aeroplanes as though the Knights' Code were merely an instruction manual. It is not -- it is a series of statements about some ideals one finds to varying degrees in the character of the symbolic Knight. And because the iconic Knight is a symbol, the ideals upon which her/his character is moulded cannot be seized conceptually as knowledge, but only allegorically intuited, they cannot be followed like an ordinary algorithm for producing a set of results.

Senan, your driving license analogy is not bad : you're right, one would not want to give a 12 year-old a driving license just because they hope to have one some day. On the other hand, the analogy breaks down after that. Although one wouldn't give the child a driving license, s/he has probably been around 'cars' all of his/her life ... s/he knows what a car is, what it is for, has seen the car being driven by older people (mentors) for probably all of those 12 years. In and about the age of 7, the child probably began noticing things like stopping at red lights, yielding the right-of-way to other motorists ... basically that there were a set of rules that the driver was following, all the while having the same conversation, singing along with the radio or just evidently not having to reflect too much on the driving to be able to do so safely without so much of the attention being devoted to driving the car. It just becomes natural ... So, the child sees the behaviours and the procedures of driving the car become intuitive. They are learning about driving years before they "study" le Code de la Route or take driving lessons. Neither the Code de la Route nor the driving school are locked away as arcane knowledge, nor are children shielded from seeing things like cars, traffic (or traffic accidents) and road networks -- including the 'stop' lights.

Now, in this day and age, an 18 year-old is almost expected to get a driving license ; it has become a cultural index. It is not a necessity. It could very well be that one decides s/he does not want to drive cars ... that is not as weird as it sounds (I, for one, absolutely hate it). That doesn't mean that one just doesn't go anywhere, doesn't know what drivers of cars do, nor that one would never get into a car driven by another. And the more mature one gets - both physically and psychologically - one would be even more aware of the Code that drivers do not only learn, but "internalise" to the point that they really don't have to think about it.

The Knights' Code says : "A Knight is sworn to valour" -- not that s/he "thinks about" valour ; "His heart knows only Virtue" -- but were the Knight to focus on 'being virtuous' then s/he would get derailed from true Virtue ; "His blade defends the helpless" -- here too, the "blade" is symbolic, but even so, and even with the training that it takes to wield the symbol virtuously, one has to have had observational experience of what that symbol alludes to. "His word speaks only Truth" -- this is just saying that we don't outright 'lie', not that we can't be wrong about things as everyone is from time to time. And so on and so forth ... These are not merely 'instructions' to follow ; it requires mentorship and experience to refine them and to internalise them.

I feel that the Knights' Code ought to be part of the Doctrine because there is a sub-set of our community sworn and held up to the ideals that it points towards. And insomuch as none of our Doctrine - nor any doctrine of any social organisation - can be obeyed to the letter, the Knights' Code shows people that the Knights who serve them have indeed been on a spiritual journey that never ends. Do we screw it up ? You bet ! And how sometimes ... That is just a fortunate aspect of being a living being in/with the world. The most experienced drivers also have accidents and get traffic fines ... But it would give people an indication that embodying the symbol of a Knight - certainly to serve the needs of people in the chaotic world-wasteland of the post-modern, addicted/addictive, instant gratification, electronic Disneyland of the 21st Century - is founded on the inductive and internalised ideals it describes. And the Code is only a description ...

So, yes, I would like for everyone to know what cars and aeroplanes are and how much training goes into manipulating them, whether they actually do so themselves (yet) or not.

Alexandre Orion wrote: The Jedi faith and this Order are founded upon the acknowledgement, the wonder, the curiosity ...

I'd quote it all in its entirety, because I really want to - but to save space...

Look, I don't mean to have a guy like me totally fangirl over this, but hey - I can't help it! LOL

Master Jedi, you've put it more plainly, more rightly, more beautifully than I think anyone ever could - I whole-heartedly agree!!

I feel like I should thank Alex just because it seems like anyone who writes that many words deserves some kind of kudos. :lol:

I can't remember the thoughts I had at the beginning, now that I am at the end...

Oh well, time to flippant.

one would be even more aware of the Code that drivers do not only learn, but "internalise" to the point that they really don't have to think about it.

Unless you're one of those people who is always breathing manually....

Anyway you have explained superbly why the Knight's Code would and should be available even for those who are not Knights, and some really good stuff on internalising behaviours instead of just doing them because it's written down somewhere....

I'm still not sold on the knight's code itself (And I think I just had an idea why...It's very...ego-y? It's about how great the knight is, which is...different to how I see jediism....

Discussion for another time perhaps)

I don't mean to have a guy like me totally fangirl over this

I enjoy gender bending as much as the next bloke, but wouldn't it be fanboying?

Thank you for clarifying, Alexandre. I hadn't thought about internalizing the info before actually practicing it. That is a fair point.

As I thought about my feelings on the subject more, I'm coming to the realization that to me it is more about a right of passage. Campbell talks about the lack of right of passage rituals in modern society that leave young people searching for validation.

Becoming a Knight is a right of passage at TOTJO, and while the Knights Code should be available to anyone to read, actually committing to follow it and being held to its standards seems a part of the Knight right of passage to me.

I guess this leaves me somewhere in the middle. Encourage everyone to be aware of the Code and internalize it from the beginning, but don't make it actual Doctrine as not everyone will be able to reconcile it with their path. I don't know. I'm rambling now.