An interesting supplement to our discussion on the Confidant

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03 Nov 2015 18:38 #207478 by Cabur Senaar
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04 Nov 2015 13:14 #207556 by user15542
Great article, very interesting.

True for us all. We work on what we can, and carry what we must.

Absolute agreement that acknowledgement is fundamental to empathy.

Thanks for sharing!
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04 Nov 2015 13:52 - 04 Nov 2015 14:12 #207562 by Reliah
A very interesting and different point of view..
Though I'm not entirely sure if I understand the difference between there being a reason for everything and that people have to grieve, hurt, and carry things. Can both not be true?

Edit: I realize I may not understand what people mean by "there's a reason for everything" in the same way they actually mean it. I also understand how telling someone something awful happened to them so they can learn and grow is not always accurate and even violent as the article states. I'm simply wondering... that's all.

...
Last edit: 04 Nov 2015 14:12 by Reliah.

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04 Nov 2015 15:38 - 04 Nov 2015 15:43 #207582 by Alexandre Orion
Reliah wrote :

Though I'm not entirely sure if I understand the difference between there being a reason for everything and that people have to grieve, hurt, and carry things. Can both not be true?


Not really.

First of all, there is not a "reason" for everything. The Universe does not 'Reason' ; nor doth the World, nor even the local ecosystem. Causal 'reasoning' - application of the hypothetical imperative - is proper to only thinking things that manipulate their environments (including other 'beings' thereof). The "everything happens for a reason" fallacy is nothing short of the "world as an artefact" model of the Cosmos that Watts showed us clearly doesn't hold up. The article brings to light something that I've been telling you for a while too : some things just suck and we need to let them suck (properly grieving) with integrity.

Now, having 'integrity' does not mean an artificial dignity -- it means weathering 'what is' with whole-heartedness, 'integrally' feeling what one has to feel without necessarily making too much sense of it. On one hand, we need to express ourselves to people who can listen (be there) well and don't insist that we be "reasonable" about what is plainly intuitive. We don't want to dump our grief on people who can't -- incidentally, the ones who just say "everything happens for a reason".

There may be clear causal factors, or they may be so obscure that no one could ever puzzle them out, but either way, the facticity is that circumstances have come to be arranged in such a way that someone feels pain. The person may grow from it, or may not, but their pain was not brought on through some Celestial pedagogical method aimed at teaching them a lesson. It is just the "is-ness" of the Force. Other aspects of that is-ness is our being present, compassionately accompanying the suffering person without expecting them to get better (or 'how' that better is supposed to be) or worse (idem).

I acknowledge your pain. I'm here with you.


And also "being there" but giving the person enough space to not make any sense until s/he get to where things can be reasonable for him/her again. Human beings are pretty resilient provided that they are permitted a natural and very salutary period of grief.

"Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme."
~ Henri Bergson
Last edit: 04 Nov 2015 15:43 by Alexandre Orion.
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04 Nov 2015 16:41 - 04 Nov 2015 16:41 #207591 by Reliah
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Yes, I see.. I was taking the saying far too literally.
What I mean is.. when I hear "there's a reason for everything", I think that's obvious and really quite a funny thing to say.
The reason we die is because we're alive.
The reason we suffer is because we have feelings and emotions.
At the same time, as I said, I think pointing this fact out to someone who is hurting is unkind and unnecessary.
But now I see what is meant. It is meant as a very cruel way to tell someone they're to get something of use out of something horrible while they're in the very worst parts of it.

Thank you, Alex. :)

...
Last edit: 04 Nov 2015 16:41 by Reliah.
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04 Nov 2015 16:59 #207594 by Reliah
I had another thought. I'm not sure if I should create a new thread - I don't want to derail this one.. so if I need to, please let me know and I will.

My thought, or rather question is..
Can we decide for ourselves that anything that happens to us is for a reason and try to use everything as a learning experience? Does it work that way, just because we decide it does? Is that a good thing to do or is it harmful?
While at the same time being empathetic towards others and realizing that isn't their reality and thrusting it upon them in the process, of course.

...
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04 Nov 2015 17:04 #207596 by Carlos.Martinez3
Interesting in deed.

Get it?
I think without attachment life happens. It is how WE YOU Or ME handel things or really explain things that others see who we are. Think about that for a bit...
It is by our fruits.. by our actions that we are... I don't wanna say judged but my voc. Is limited.
You tell a apple tree by the apples it fives, how crisp and juicy.
Like a tree or fruit bearing plants we are some times seen as our fruits bare. Life is full of ups n downs. It is how and what we do with them that makes us who we r. And ps.... if u pray or meditate and continuously ask for peace or understanding or strength and live and life gives you so any reasons to give em out and practice em.
In short these are very wonderful ways to show what's inside rather than what is...not...savy?

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04 Nov 2015 22:01 - 04 Nov 2015 22:03 #207653 by Adder
Saying there is a 'reason for something' bad happening works for small stuff, but not the serious stuff. For the small things it's just a way to write it off, close the box and give it no more thought and move on, but this is not possible for the serious stuff.

While at some point people probably should rebuild themselves out of that grief, at that stage it might become the process of recontextualizing the experience in ways which allow the transition from ripping lose and imbalance, to a state of equiposition and useful integration of those memories going forward. I think examining the reasons and extents/boundaries of knowledge about it is good to remove confusion and contextualize what has happened. So I would suggest it is integral to both grief and recovery, but in different ways. During grief its about knowing the truth so you can honestly experience the inner feelings to the external event, and during recovery its about examining your own feelings to connect again backwards through the storm of lose to the shining light of their life.

But that is about lose and suffering.

Just like using the saying for small stuff is meaningless but useful, so too can finding reason be useful for small stuff, as it allows networks/hierarchies of causality to be built which allow complexity to be managed going forward. The more accurate the better, but the more accurate the more complex and more difficult it is to manage easily - so simplified reasoning, less truthfully accurate representations can still be entirely useful and appropriate while letting it be more easy to work with... for the small stuff, IMO.

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 04 Nov 2015 22:03 by Adder.

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05 Nov 2015 01:08 - 05 Nov 2015 01:26 #207670 by Alexandre Orion

Reliah wrote: I had another thought. I'm not sure if I should create a new thread - I don't want to derail this one.. so if I need to, please let me know and I will.

My thought, or rather question is..
Can we decide for ourselves that anything that happens to us is for a reason and try to use everything as a learning experience? Does it work that way, just because we decide it does? Is that a good thing to do or is it harmful?
While at the same time being empathetic towards others and realizing that isn't their reality and thrusting it upon them in the process, of course.


Of course we can decide to include whatever is helpful (hopefully) to us - as it may pertain to ourselves - in any narrative that we might choose. It doesn't necessarily mean that we are going to believe it, no matter how much we really want to. Belief without that element of "certainty" is what faith is. Faith in what your intuition tells you is apt, not what comes out of a book or someone else's chattering (especially not mine !) So, I guess it is fine when your own soul feels a reason for stuff.

But to the interesting part of your question, K : does it have to happen for a reason to be a learning experience ? Can't one learn from events whether they are reasoned (designed) or not ? Not all lessons need a teacher, some of them are quite well enough taken just in the natural, seemingly happen-stance, messy living of them ... Thus, just because we've learnt something from Life, does it mean that the 'accident' was mystically master-minded ?

If we are including the divine purpose 'reasoning' as part of our narrative, how are we going to be able to really empathise with others ? That is, if we ourselves need rely on accidents "happening for a reason", how well can we be present with and for another without some of that 'purpose' being wished for ? I'm not saying that we can't be ; I don't know. It just seems to me that it would make things a little lop-sided :

Shite things happen to me because "everything happens for a reason" (to make me grow) but I acknowledge your pain and am there with you just because things sometimes suck. Hmmm ... not very convincing empathy, is it ?

;)

"Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme."
~ Henri Bergson
Last edit: 05 Nov 2015 01:26 by Alexandre Orion.
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05 Nov 2015 02:09 #207675 by Cabur Senaar
I was glad that the writer took that shot at "everything happens for a reason.". If you take it to mean that every event arises from a set of antecedent causes, then fine. When we start saying that a larger purpose is being fulfilled, I don't buy it.


I remember asking a "spiritual person" about that idea, that divine purposes were always being served. I brought up starving children and asked again. What purpose was being served here?

For the purpose of the article, and the Confidant discussion, I figure if you tell them that this event that is hurting them has a purpose, then you have justified it. It is now a "good thing" and they are not allowed to feel badly about it. We mean it as a way of cheering people, but instead we are removing permission to grieve. Bad business, that.

Glad to see this conversation. Thanks!
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