How do you know you have a Choice?

Precisely. We can't correlate and qualify each and every situation. And yet you say that if we could, we would indeed find X. My question is: How do you figure that?

It ultimately comes down (in my personal opinion) to be an individual matter, as the question of choice itself points to the existence of an ultimate truth, to which imo there is none. Is there such a thing as ultimate truth?

In the realm of human understanding, there isn't. Some will say there are three inevitable truths, birth, death, and taxes. The first and the second are entirely up for debate when it comes to the theory of when life actually starts, and there is no definite answer to that particular question. Taxes? Not everyone pays them.

So, is there such a thing as choice? I choose to think so, as both choosing and thinking are imo volitional acts. Do I know I have a choice? Of course, proving it however is next to impossible to people who "believe" otherwise. I do strongly believe perception has quite a bit to do with personal choice, and perception can be changed according to one's Will...

Phortis, on the topic of hardwiring (personally not convinced of that, though my beliefs are similar), Do you think you would have become a fireman had you not been a HVAC installer for 18 years? Also, if you weren't hardwired to be a HVAC installer for 18 years, then why were you a HVAC installer for 18 years?

Gisteron wrote: Precisely. We can't correlate and qualify each and every situation. And yet you say that if we could, we would indeed find X. My question is: How do you figure that?

I'm with Gisteron.

A lot of the time people say we won't have free will, they argue that if we knew all the variables leading up to a time then we could predict all the future happenings from that time. But like Gisteron said, we can't do that, so if we can't then why should we assume that the prior point (100% accurate prediction) is true?

We might accept that as true hypothetically, but the point is that there is no evidence to prove that it's the case.

Akkarin wrote:

Gisteron wrote: Precisely. We can't correlate and qualify each and every situation. And yet you say that if we could, we would indeed find X. My question is: How do you figure that?

I'm with Gisteron.

A lot of the time people say we won't have free will, they argue that if we knew all the variables leading up to a time then we could predict all the future happenings from that time. But like Gisteron said, we can't do that, so if we can't then why should we assume that the prior point (100% accurate prediction) is true?

We might accept that as true hypothetically, but the point is that there is no evidence to prove that it's the case.

Free will.. maybe it sounds a bit old-fashioned, but could it be that free will is just desire? And that true free will is just like intuition? The nature of the inner self that happens without questions, as if it is you subconsciousness that acts directly? :blush:

ren wrote: In reply to what senan and goken have said, how do you know you have a choice? And that your ability to choose isn't a mere belief?

How do you know that the "choice" you have made was not inevitable? As in, if you you take a look at your entire situation, life history, and say that in one instance you choose to join the military, is it possible to "copy" you (your life, history, situation, etc), and watch that copy choose not to join the military?

I don't, which is why I don't worry about it too much. If indeed my fate is my own, then I will try to live the best and most just life I can. If it is in fact a delusion of my own mind that my fate belongs to me, then I will try to live the best and most just life I can and accept that not everything in the universe is in my control. Besides, it may be the case that all the contingent possibilities within my capability to effect all lead to the same eventual outcome, thereby giving the illusion of choice while in the end being inevitably the same... And considering that I will die and become one with the Force, it seems fairly like that no matter what I do, death will happen, therefore it makes little sense to freak out over the idea of choice versus determined fate.

Free Will should exist IMO because we are bounded by our bodies from the environment, the environment we find ourselves in which we do not control plays a role in our decision making.... so it would seem not to be predestined on that level of understanding BUT if entertaining some interconnected nature analogous to a Force then are we really disconnected at that boundary!? Perhaps some part of us knows beyond, certainly science seems to show the subconscious knows more and before then the conscious mind knows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jint5kjoy6I

If I'm parsing Kaku correctly, he's saying the universe is not deterministic due to quantum randomness and this quantum fluctuation effects neurons at an atomic scale and due to "leaky" neurons with quantum effects, we have free-will....?

It still seems to resolve down to a belief-terminus, which is somehow unsatisfactory, yet wonderfully Gnostic....

Love the Hitch quote, I'd forgotten it....

When faced with this question, I often resort to the "Duuuude" reply....

Yea... Seems a bit far-fetched to me too... It'd be like saying that a quartz clock has free will because the quartz doesn't have a 100% predictable frequency. Or that I have free will not because I choose to, but because I am forced to by a phenomenon I have no control over. It's great to hear that god rolls dice, problem is that doesn't help me much as I am not god.
Similarly, just because a process appears random does not mean the process actually is random.