Who's responsibility?

Cabur Senaar wrote: Two things come to mind. The first is that charity has become a dirty word, as if needing help was a categorically bad thing. One might argue that accepting aid you don't need is dishonorable, but that is a separate issue. I am not making any personal accusations. Only commenting on the culture.

I work with survivors of brain injury, people who will never be able to work or generate income again. One of the first things that comes up is the shame of receiving help, as if the needs born of injury were some kind of character flaw.

But it isn't. Helping them get by isn't just about them. It's about all of us. I regard it as a mark of a civilized society that it does not throw human beings away. We are not quite there.

Even if one feeds a person in need, and many situations can create need, giving shame along with the money is too close to throwing people away for my taste. As much as, for instance, that Jedi out in Oregan needs help, we asna society need to help him. We require it for our own wellbeing.

Perhaps, rather than asking if it is charity (sure), or if there is money (there is), ask why caring for humans is so much less important. It boils down to a question of priorities.

My wish is just to mark the bolted text.
I totally agree with these words.
MtFbwY All.
Robert.

Cabur Senaar wrote: Two things come to mind. The first is that charity has become a dirty word, as if needing help was a categorically bad thing. One might argue that accepting aid you don't need is dishonorable, but that is a separate issue. I am not making any personal accusations. Only commenting on the culture.

I work with survivors of brain injury, people who will never be able to work or generate income again. One of the first things that comes up is the shame of receiving help, as if the needs born of injury were some kind of character flaw.

But it isn't. Helping them get by isn't just about them. It's about all of us. I regard it as a mark of a civilized society that it does not throw human beings away. We are not quite there.

Even if one feeds a person in need, and many situations can create need, giving shame along with the money is too close to throwing people away for my taste. As much as, for instance, that Jedi out in Oregan needs help, we asna society need to help him. We require it for our own wellbeing.

Perhaps, rather than asking if it is charity (sure), or if there is money (there is), ask why caring for humans is so much less important. It boils down to a question of priorities.

I don't think charity is a dirty word, and if the government can afford it, more power to them...

But the US cannot, as shown by our increasing debt...

Zenchi pointed out how he helps... I do my small things too, and we all should...

Many do...

The government, Exarchias, is not here to raise us, and raise our children, is it?

We get awful upset when it sticks it nose in our business, don't we?

Yet expect it to jump when we need something from it...

I don't have an answer, I'm only having a conversation...

It is something I think about often...

Our new Governor is a millionaire... Self made success story...

How does this happen? Was he just lucky?

Or, is it because he made hard decisions because of his goals?

To bring us back out of debt, hard decisions need to be made, and I don't think the majority of people are anywhere NEAR ready....

Idk...

Jestor wrote: (1) I don't think charity is a dirty word, and if the government can afford it, more power to them...

But the US cannot, as shown by our increasing debt...

(1) Zenchi pointed out how he helps... I do my small things too, and we all should...

Many do...

(2) The government, Exarchias, is not here to raise us, and raise our children, is it?

We get awful upset when it sticks it nose in our business, don't we?

Yet expect it to jump when we need something from it...

I don't have an answer, I'm only having a conversation...

It is something I think about often...

Our new Governor is a millionaire... Self made success story...

How does this happen? Was he just lucky?

Or, is it because he made hard decisions because of his goals?

To bring us back out of debt, hard decisions need to be made, and I don't think the majority of people are anywhere NEAR ready....

Idk...

I know i said i will now keep up with this conversation but i do not disagree 100% neither i have the anger that i had before.
Probably i misunderstood something and i failed somehow to see your point of view.

2 points (i marked with numbers specific points on your text)

(1) I do not speak for charity i speak for solidarity. Not a random action of goodness but a very specific way of life that "leaves no people behind". Somehow, somewhere here lies the friction point in this discussion, but i guess there is no simple answer that we can find in a days work. I am open to suggestions.

(2)I can't trust a family oriented system of solidarity so easily. Families are very small units, often uneducated, and they lack of proper equipment (for example a family can't have special doctors, or teachers in the case of need.)

Please notice once again, that if it was in my hand many things about raising a family would be restricted regulated not for the happiness of making laws or restrictions but in order to prevent stupid actions in the field of family matters.

I hope this time my answer was better formulated.
MtFbwY All.
Robert.

Just a ps. I don't have positive idea for extremely rich people. I believe most of the case are crooks, especially politicians. I do not admire rich people. Just saying.

There is something very disturbing about this topic.

Europeans aren't going to relate to what conservative Americans take for granted. Americans are not going to be able to relate to what benefits social-democracies (and some of those are constitutional monarchies) yield.

Exarchias is Swedish ; Sweden has one of the most well-developped social security programmes in Europe. I would hesitate to tell him that he is wrong ... France also has a pretty good social security coverage. We don't have to worry too much about not affording medical care - even lengthy hospitalisations. And yes ! that is something that a vast majority of us are willing to pay our taxes for.

It is going to be a little hard for many of you, certainly the Americans, to wrap your heads around. You will have to leave behind what you think is "common sense". It isn't "common" in the universal sense.

Basically subscribed here (more or less because I just don't want to f**k with this) : this is not "charity" and I am absolutely revolted that anyone could think that. It is called humanism ... or humanity ... or just good human decency.

Exarchias wrote: Just a ps. I don't have positive idea for extremely rich people. I believe most of the case are crooks, especially politicians. I do not admire rich people. Just saying.

And why is that, what is your reasoning for such a statement. What has a rich man done personally to you? Or is it because they are successful, more so then others. That you and others are envious of their wealth and success. That you and others struggle and they do not struggle as much?

Revan Falton wrote:

Exarchias wrote: Just a ps. I don't have positive idea for extremely rich people. I believe most of the case are crooks, especially politicians. I do not admire rich people. Just saying.

And why is that, what is your reasoning for such a statement. What has a rich man done personally to you? Or is it because they are successful, more so then others. That you and others are envious of their wealth and success. That you and others struggle and they do not struggle as much?

If someone is rich someone somewhere else will be poor and the gap is too huge to be accepted so easily.
That is more or less my opinion.
If it is for me to live in world who leaves people behind i do not wish, to think anything positive about rich people.
You are free to admire them if you wish, but i will not and no one in the world can't convince me to see them with a good eye, (especially politicians)

Let's say i am envious with their success. (Humor, not irony )

Alexandre Orion wrote: It is called humanism ... or humanity ... or just good human decency.

This... covers pretty much everything I was going to say, in one sentence.

Exarchias wrote:

Revan Falton wrote:

Exarchias wrote: Just a ps. I don't have positive idea for extremely rich people. I believe most of the case are crooks, especially politicians. I do not admire rich people. Just saying.

And why is that, what is your reasoning for such a statement. What has a rich man done personally to you? Or is it because they are successful, more so then others. That you and others are envious of their wealth and success. That you and others struggle and they do not struggle as much?

If someone is rich someone somewhere else will be poor and the gap is too huge to be accepted so easily.
That is more or less my opinion.
If it is for me to live in world who leaves people behind i do not wish, to think anything positive about rich people.
You are free to admire them if you wish, but i will not and no one in the world can't convince me to see them with a good eye, (especially politicians)

Let's say i am envious with their success. (Humor, not irony )

So my initial assumption was correct then, no? Since you did not say anything affinitive to dissagree with my initial statement. Now, allow me to expand on that. Since you are stating it is not fair he has a vast amount of wealth while others do not, you seem to be proposing that the playing field should be leveled, yes? That all should have the same amount of wealth? Correct? Now, if those are you beliefs, then humor me with this scenario. A homeless man sees you, you have a family, children, a house, etc. You aren't rich by any means, but you work enough to support your family and live a decent lifestyle. However, compared to the homeless man you might as well be a billionaire. He is envious of your success. Follows you for a week, knows you and your family's schedule. Then he breaks in, and steals your possessions and money. Enough just so you can be on the same level. Realizing this, you now have a tremendous amount of dept you can't pay off, your car is repossed and the bank forecloses on your home. You are now equal with that homeless man. Is that the world you wish to live in, where no one can have a decent life? Where everyone must be made to suffer?

Revan Falton wrote:

Exarchias wrote:

Revan Falton wrote:

Exarchias wrote: Just a ps. I don't have positive idea for extremely rich people. I believe most of the case are crooks, especially politicians. I do not admire rich people. Just saying.

And why is that, what is your reasoning for such a statement. What has a rich man done personally to you? Or is it because they are successful, more so then others. That you and others are envious of their wealth and success. That you and others struggle and they do not struggle as much?

If someone is rich someone somewhere else will be poor and the gap is too huge to be accepted so easily.
That is more or less my opinion.
If it is for me to live in world who leaves people behind i do not wish, to think anything positive about rich people.
You are free to admire them if you wish, but i will not and no one in the world can't convince me to see them with a good eye, (especially politicians)

Let's say i am envious with their success. (Humor, not irony )

So my initial assumption was correct then, no? Since you did not say anything affinitive to dissagree with my initial statement. Now, allow me to expand on that. Since you are stating it is not fair he has a vast amount of wealth while others do not, you seem to be proposing that the playing field should be leveled, yes? That all should have the same amount of wealth? Correct? Now, if those are you beliefs, then humor me with this scenario. A homeless man sees you, you have a family, children, a house, etc. You aren't rich by any means, but you work enough to support your family and live a decent lifestyle. However, compared to the homeless man you might as well be a billionaire. He is envious of your success. Follows you for a week, knows you and your family's schedule. Then he breaks in, and steals your possessions and money. Enough just so you can be on the same level. Realizing this, you now have a tremendous amount of dept you can't pay off, your car is repossed and the bank forecloses on your home. You are now equal with that homeless man. Is that the world you wish to live in, where no one can have a decent life? Where everyone must be made to suffer?

You can't convince me for anything. So don't try.

p.s. i sound too negative so if you are not extremely rich i wish you to have a wonderful night

Exarchias wrote: If someone is rich someone somewhere else will be poor and the gap is too huge to be accepted so easily.
That is more or less my opinion.
If it is for me to live in world who leaves people behind i do not wish, to think anything positive about rich people.
You are free to admire them if you wish, but i will not and no one in the world can't convince me to see them with a good eye, (especially politicians)

Let's say i am envious with their success. (Humor, not irony )

Id really like to stop and examine this one for a second.

Singer Mariah Careys net worth sits at around $150 million dollars. People love her music (why is beyond me) and she gets paid when people buy it or attend her concerts. Does this make her a bad person somehow because shes stupidly wealthy and others arent? Has she done something to widen the gap between rich and poor? How many people have made money and had employment because of the "industry of Mariah"?

Bill Gates net worth, around $81 Billion dollars. Microsoft employes directly around 90 thousand people. Thats JUST microsoft, not including the hundreds of companies and suppliers that work with Microsoft. Thats a lot of people in steady employment because of his business. Also, he has given around 50 billion in total to charity over the years and its estimated that his charitable work has touched the lives of literally millions (did you know that he personally funds vaccination and education programmes that saves childrens lives all over the world? and has publicly pledged to keep giving half of everything he earns to charity?) He doesnt sound so bad does he.

George Lucas, net worth around 4.5 billion.... for creating star wars and Indiana Jones and giving thousands of people work over the years both directly on sets and indirectly through the merchandising industry. Also philanthropic. Had donated to a lot of educational groups in his time. I dont see him widening the gap between rich and poor either.

ALL universities and the majority of hospitals in the United States have a major donor programmes because the government simply cannot afford to pay for them to run. Major donor btw, is generally defined as someone who gives an average of $10K or over.

I could go on as there are thousands of very wealthy people whos philanthropy is well documented, but I think you understand what im saying.

Sure, there are always going to be people who cheat the system, who take advantage of others to get what they want and to make money. And yes, some people are just unethical %$&# who have made their fortunes on the backs of modern day slaves. Which is ass, but the system and the culture has created that situation and allowed it to exist. That is where the change needs to happen. Just as a starting point I'd love to see some fundamental changes to the tax system that remove loop holes for the super wealthy, but I don't believe that the demonising of people who for the most part have worked hard to get where they are is right or fair.

And the "them vs us" mentality does nothing other than create bitterness and anger and an inability to see through to the actual problem.