Psychoactive Substances

There have been many groups, faiths and paths over the past 4000 years that have used marijuana in a sacred context. For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_spiritual_use_of_cannabis

Alcohol is also used as a sacred tool by some, such as the curandero in Peru. As I mentioned above, the problem is not with the plant/substance itself but with the context and intention with which it is used. In the same way, communion wine is used by Catholics in a sacred context to bring them closer to their spirituality by representing the blood of Christ (or the belief that through method of transubstantiation it actually becomes that blood). Getting drunk on wine with your mates - not so spiritual.

Besides, what's so bad about something that "effects your mind and alters your perception of the world". Meditation does that too. All such tools can be used for a spiritual purpose, or abused for fun. If someone just wants to get trolleyed, that's stupid and disrespectful.

I think that's right, the way in which you do something does determine whether or not you have a religious experience. I would say though, that everyone has a different reaction to different drugs, I know people who can't drink alcohol for example.

For me personally, when I take drugs, specifically marijuana, I feel it drains me as a person. I do not feel as though I act in a way which is true to my real self, on an extremely basic level I might buy loads of food when I get the munchies. What's more I've found that taking drugs leads to lying and a detoriation in relationships with friends and family and at this moment in time I feel as though, as a result of taking drugs very rarely, I have a better, more honest relationship with my family and the people I am close with, I am close with because of a bond we share as people, we don't get together just to take drugs.

I do accept though, that the environment I have taken drugs in was never a spiritual one, and that I have not treated drugs as sacred, it has always been for a bit of fun, or even worse, to forget out my problems. Saying that though, I don't see how it could have any difference. Although perhaps the experience of the high would be very different, the physical and mental effects still remain, ie. if I smoked dope every day I would be very lazy and have a very bad short term memory, even if I was smoking it to achieve some sort of enlightenment.

I'd like to put forward another question though. At the moment I take drugs on rare occasions and in an environment where I am with only close friends. In the past I have found that some drugs can really bring you closer together with friends, you become more open and are more willing to express your feelings towards them? If what you say is really true, is that not a good thing, as it can only enhance your relationship with that person(s)?

Again, that depends on what your intent is. If you are using something in order to form a close, positive bond with people that you care about, then that may well be a good thing and could even be said to be a "spiritual pursuit".

As for your comment that regular use would have a negative effect, again I agree. Having a deeply mystical and spiritually-enlightening experience every day might not be good for you either! With most things, appropriate moderation is usually the best advice.

Having said that, ayahuasceros (for example) will consume and commune with the spirit of ayahuasca on a regular basis, usually several times a week. But only for healing (themselves or others) or to facilitate work that benefits the community, such as divination. It would never be used just for the thrill of it.

I see it all as another tool, good at something but hopeless at everything else. I dont think humanity is mature enough yet for it to be as available as alcohol - though I think it perhaps should be.

I was reading something yesterday about optogenetics , and I predict in the mid term future people will be able to inject themselves with a one time virus which will cause designed genetic mutation in specific brain neurons that trigger specific neurochemical changes when exposed to specific sub-cranial light - in effect having a fibre optic port/jack installed into their skull so that all they need to do to get 'high' is shine the correct frequancy of light into the 'jack'.



Shine the light baby!!! Where is William Gibson when you need him

This has been a good thread to watch and most of what I believe has been said.

I would only like to make the point that drugs, alcohol(moon shine types), and other illegal substances became that way in order to preserve a orderly society. It is not until the item has caused harm to someone other that the user that it becomes illegal. It also takes a toll on the financial aspects of living in a civilized society. As a public servant I have been on many calls where people exercising their "rights" have caused a strain on the local economy by theft, vagrancy, prostitution, etc.

I would also like to say it this way...

in order to live in a free and civilized society, we must give up some of our "rights" for the good of the "whole". At birth we are given a complete set of blocks (rights). These include the right to kill, steal, rape, use drugs, blow buildings up.

We freely give up these particular rights so that we may live peacefully and civilly. We all must agree or there can be no order. "There will be no unlimited editing on this site so that we may preserve the continuity of the thread" We as a organization agree by majority to do so. So we as a country agree by majority that certain items are illegal and must be outlawed to preserve the rights of all people in a civilized social order.

It is relatively easy to abide by these laws as it is easy to leave this country if you don't like the laws. If your rights are more important that the whole, your ego is in control of you and this selfishness leads to dark places.

Phortis Nespin wrote: This has been a good thread to watch and most of what I believe has been said.

I would only like to make the point that drugs, alcohol(moon shine types), and other illegal substances became that way in order to preserve a orderly society. It is not until the item has caused harm to someone other that the user that it becomes illegal. It also takes a toll on the financial aspects of living in a civilized society. As a public servant I have been on many calls where people exercising their "rights" have caused a strain on the local economy by theft, vagrancy, prostitution, etc.

I would also like to say it this way...

in order to live in a free and civilized society, we must give up some of our "rights" for the good of the "whole". At birth we are given a complete set of blocks (rights). These include the right to kill, steal, rape, use drugs, blow buildings up.

We freely give up these particular rights so that we may live peacefully and civilly. We all must agree or there can be no order. "There will be no unlimited editing on this site so that we may preserve the continuity of the thread" We as a organization agree by majority to do so. So we as a country agree by majority that certain items are illegal and must be outlawed to preserve the rights of all people in a civilized social order.

It is relatively easy to abide by these laws as it is easy to leave this country if you don't like the laws. If your rights are more important that the whole, your ego is in control of you and this selfishness leads to dark places.

This is pretty much exactly what I think, only worded much better than I would have managed

I do agree in principle that it is our right to decide what we put into our bodies.

However, if, as Phortis said, exercising that right has been proven to cause danger to others then something has to be done for the good of the society. If one wants to live in society they have to accept that measures will always be put in place to protect the members of that society, and in order for those measures to work, no member of that society can be considered to be above the rules.

I think that really it's about recognizing that although you (not anyone here in particular, just a hypothetical person) may not think that you will cause anyone harm, it is selfish and arrogant to consider it an impossibility. Better safe than sorry, as the saying goes.

I didn't read many of the replies. But I want to say this. For a while now i've been refusing medication from nurses. I also have been asking my chineese doctor questions like "can chineese medicen be used to harm" he said "it depends on the purpose" Would you, if you were a mariguanna user, sit down with your worst enemy and light one up?

Also I read in the bagavad Gita something about how some people are mimicing the god Shiva, by smoking herbs and waring thier hair in thick braids. could this be refering to rastafarians?

Nehushtan wrote: I respectfully disagree. Who are you or the government to tell me what to put in my body? By what right? Where in the Counstitution does it say that isn't a right?

When I can get to a computer I will go into more of what I want to say to others , but for now this is the one I will address:

Who are you to mess with the lives of those who love you? Because that is what someone does every time they get involved with an illegal substance. Random scenario, just to illustrate the importance for a Jedi to NOT get high.

We'll take a scenario that could easily happen to anyone: You get high, a friend needs serious help RIGHT now because they just experienced a critical incident. This critical incident was "the straw that broke the camel's back". So your friend, in a final cry for help reaches out to you via phone before they decide to do something drastic (commit suicide). They call you because you are the only person that could possibly prove their life is worth living for. What do you do? How coherent are you to help your friend resolvve their problem?

Remember, it's not just your friend's Life that is being played with, but everyone that loves him/her which she/he may not even realize DOES care about them.

Will this happen? You don't know WHAT will happen, so why take the risk if you are going to be a legitimate Jedi? The government doesn't think the way I do, but if I had pushed for this bill, it would be for all those whose life could be ruined by proxy of their friends doing drugs. This isn't about you, it's about the whole.

Alcohol is legal but if someone chooses to relax with marijuana they're a criminal. That's based on science, reason and to protect society?

What the most dangerous drug? (Hint, it's legal.) http://reason.com/blog/2010/11/01/the-most-dangerous-drug

A new study in The Lancet rates the harmfulness of 20 psychoactive drugs according to 16 criteria and finds that alcohol comes out on top. Although that conclusion is generating headlines, it is not at all surprising, since alcohol is, by several important measures (including acute toxicity, impairment of driving ability, and the long-term health effects of heavy use), the most dangerous widely used intoxicant, and its abuse is also associated with violence, family breakdown, and social estrangement. A group of British drug experts gathered by the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs (ISCD) rated alcohol higher than most or all of the other drugs for health damage, mortality, impairment of mental functioning, accidental injury, economic cost, loss of relationships, and negative impact on community. Over all, alcohol rated 72 points on a 100-point scale, compared to 55 for heroin, 54 for crack cocaine, and 33 for methamphetamine. Cannabis got a middling score of 20, while MDMA (Ecstasy), LSD, and psilocybin mushrooms were at the low end, with ratings of 9, 7, and 6, respectively.


The War on Drugs is a War on People. The law is the crime. There is no rational basis.

The United States has 5% of the world's population but 25% of all the prisoners on Earth. China has less people locked up than we do. This is rational? This is justice?

I'm not going to love the United States or leave it. I'm going to love the United States and help change it for the better. That's what Jedi do. At the top of my list is abolishing the despicable Evil Incarnate Prison Industrial Complex and ending the criminalization of good (otherwise) law abiding citizens merely for using a plant.

LEAP | Law Enforcement Against Prohibition - http://www.leap.cc/

Let's see:

• Many people die from alcohol use. Nobody dies from marijuana use.
• People die from alcohol overdoses. There has never been a fatal marijuana overdose.
• The health-related costs associated with alcohol use far exceed those for marijuana use.
• Alcohol use damages the brain. Marijuana use does not.
• Alcohol use is linked to cancer. Marijuana use is not.
• Alcohol is more addictive than marijuana.
• Alcohol use increases the risk of injury to the consumer. Marijuana use does not.
• Alcohol use contributes to aggressive and violent behavior. Marijuana use does not.
• Alcohol use is a major factor in violent crimes. Marijuana use is not.
• Alcohol use contributes to the likelihood of domestic abuse and sexual assault. Marijuana use does not.

Details and references: http://www.saferchoice.org/content/view/24/53/

How Marijuana Became Illegal: http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/

Let's not forget cigarettes: http://www.mjlegal.org/alctob.html

This is one of those things where I don't really have a side just yet. Let me throw out a word that should get you thinking..."alcohol."

Many of you argue that illegal drugs are harmful for the community and are ruining loved ones...but does alcohol not have this same effect? I have witnessed people fall apart because of alcohol. I had a friend from high school who turned from his family, and ultimately, died in an accident in which he was drunk (wrapped his car around a tree). What you argue against drugs, can also be applied to alcohol.

HOWEVER! There is another side I stand on. Unlike drugs, you cannot get contact drunk from alcohol. The smoke from drugs gives you contact high. The smell from alcohol does nothing (unless you're like me and it makes you want to vomit). I, for one, do not feel like getting high just standing on the street corner or sitting out on the beach while somebody smokes weed or pot. Sure, you can legalize some drugs but not others, but that just sends you down a slippery path. You can legalize all drugs but limit which ones are used where, but once again...slippery slope. People will still complain.

So as you can see, there are valid arguments on both sides, which is why I haven't been able to pick one. Now I do not like drugs. I do not like any mind altering substance. And I don't buy the whole "but it gives you a religious experience" crap (sorry, just being honest). Hallucinations from drugs are nothing more the false images and feelings. I do not want those falsities. I want to experience REAL spiritual connection (this is all just my opinion, by the way, but one I thoroughly believe in).

So there's my 2 cents. Not very helpful, probably, but it's there anyway. Deal with it!

A Jedi does not abuse or misuse substances. abusus non tollit usum abuse is not an argument against proper use

Look at some of the things that, properly used, are helping with:

1. Alcoholism.
2. End-of-life issues.
3. Depression and anxiety.
4. Cluster headaches.
5. Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

5 Fascinating New Uses For Psychedelics

Scientists are looking into various medical and psychiatric uses for psychedelics. Could the taboo be ending? http://www.alternet.org/story/155167/5_fascinating_new_uses_for_psychedelics?page=entire

Hadi Apollos wrote: This is one of those things where I don't really have a side just yet. Let me throw out a word that should get you thinking..."alcohol."

Many of you argue that illegal drugs are harmful for the community and are ruining loved ones...but does alcohol not have this same effect? I have witnessed people fall apart because of alcohol. I had a friend from high school who turned from his family, and ultimately, died in an accident in which he was drunk (wrapped his car around a tree). What you argue against drugs, can also be applied to alcohol.

HOWEVER! There is another side I stand on. Unlike drugs, you cannot get contact drunk from alcohol. The smoke from drugs gives you contact high. The smell from alcohol does nothing (unless you're like me and it makes you want to vomit). I, for one, do not feel like getting high just standing on the street corner or sitting out on the beach while somebody smokes weed or pot. Sure, you can legalize some drugs but not others, but that just sends you down a slippery path. You can legalize all drugs but limit which ones are used where, but once again...slippery slope. People will still complain.

So as you can see, there are valid arguments on both sides, which is why I haven't been able to pick one. Now I do not like drugs. I do not like any mind altering substance. And I don't buy the whole "but it gives you a religious experience" crap (sorry, just being honest). Hallucinations from drugs are nothing more the false images and feelings. I do not want those falsities. I want to experience REAL spiritual connection (this is all just my opinion, by the way, but one I thoroughly believe in).

So there's my 2 cents. Not very helpful, probably, but it's there anyway. Deal with it!

You're assuming that re-legalizing marijuana would let people smoke it around you in public. I can't imagine that being part of the deal. Can people do that with cigarettes? Not where I live and I'm in Idiot Texas. The same principal and "no smoking laws" would apply. Besides marijuana does not have to be smoked. It can be made into a tincture, baked into brownies or inhaled through a vaporizer that produces no smoke and does not cause any contact high.

We're already on an insane slippery slope. Two of the most destructive drugs, alcohol and cigarettes are legal, taxed and regulated. Why should the far less harmful ones not be?

Are images from a telescope or a microscope false images and representations of reality? From God or The Force many wondrous plants and fungi arose and I've had life enhancing religious experiences that changed me for the better. Are you speaking from personal experience?

Remember I'm talking about proper, controlled, safe conditions and sacramental use with an experienced guide. I'm not saying anyone should just run out and start snatching up and trying all the mushrooms and toad stools in sight unless you want to get very sick or die a painful and ugly death.

Alethea and others of a similar mind, I believe that you are responding mostly to the posts that seem to advocating a social or casual use of drugs but what about the points John and I (and others) have raised about their use in a sacred context, where the lives of friends and family are not affected negatively.

One of my friends has been screwed up his entire life - he is gay and since he was a child had to hear his entire family say things like "gay people should be flushed down the toilet at birth" and much worse. He had a range of sexual and emotional issues as a result and even at the age of 39, could barely deal with them. He recently, after seeing what ayahuasca could help with, went on a 12 day trip to Peru to a healing centre run by shamen with generations of healing passed down to them. He is now everything that he could and should have been and his entire life has changed for the better. I am so happy for him and he is so happy with life, for the first time ever. No-one was harmed, so where is the problem with that?

I also see what Phortis is saying but the fault lies not with the substance itself but the people using it. Imagine if there was a sudden craze (spread by social networks or whatever) for people beating others up with joints of ham, would it become necessary to make bacon illegal?

Also, imagine a tribal society that has been using something in a sacred context for thousands of years (peyote is a good example). A few people from outside the culture use it to get high, they get noticed and the substance is made illegal. How is that fair for the people who have reverently used it and have nothing to do with the abusers? I know that exceptions are made for certain religious communities but that's not always the case, and even then it's a long and difficult road in gaining permission to carry on doing what they've always been doing.

And where is the consistency if two of the biggest causes of healthcare costs and death (cigarettes and alcohol) are legal? Not to mention the anti-social behaviour fuelled by alcohol too! The answer lies in one thing: money. Governments can more easily tax alcohol and cigarettes and it's better for them to try to control the wide-ranging effects and damage because it means that they still get their revenue. Or is it because too many of the people in power are hooked on their fix of a glass of whisky and a cigar after a day's work in government.....

The legality of certain "drugs" seems to come down to politics, not rationality. If we take a look at countries that are more tolerant of such things, we can see that decriminalisation isn't always a bad thing. Holland has a flourishing tourist trade for people that wish to go there and sample the "coffee shops" and smoke joints. Because nothing has to be hidden from the authorities, establishments are responsible for regulating their customers and the customers themselves can be assured that the products are of a decent quality and are not funding organised crime. There are much bigger problems with tourists getting drunk and causing trouble. I'm not saying that all drugs should be decriminalised, but that a more reasoned and sensible policy should be adopted rather than one that is reactive and illogically selective.

okay, here comes the desolous answers, posted underneath the question so i can keep straight.

1. How do you feel that thousands of citizens are being incarcerated for choosing to use a substance that is "illegal". By this I mean "offenders" who's only crime was doing that drug or substance ( I am not saying idiots who rob, commit crimes shouldn't be punished. They should. I am talking but people who are arrested simply for choosing to use that substance). Does it make you feel more safe knowing that cops are chasing down potheads doing nothing but sit in their house and smoke dope rather then using the time to find the REAL criminals who harm others and violate their rights?

i personally feel that ALL drugs EVERYWHERE and WITHOUT EXCEPTION should be immediately legalized and controlled. this stupid War on Drugs crap we have here in the states has ruined WAAAY too many lives, is obviously racist, and has cost TRILLIONS over the length of it. and for what? prohibition didnt work in the 30's, its not working now. and your last question in that para is leading, thus biased, but no, in actuality it does not make me feel safer that the poor, poor potheads are being afflicted with cops.


2. In light that many civilizations and religions have and continue to use psychoactive substances as a sacrament or part of their religion, isn't the government's persecution of people using psychoactive substances a form of religious persecution? For instance, I believe that marijuana is a sacrament, used for connecting with spiritual forces and gaining greater insight. What right does the government have to persecute me for my religious beliefs? Who have I harmed by smoking marijuana? Is not my body my own...or is it in truth owned by the government? If it is owned by the government, doesn't that imply I'm a slave that only has rights as long as the corrupt political elites say I do? If I am a slave with no right to decide what I take into my body, then can we at leat be honest and admit that indeed I am NOT free, my rights come from corrupt politicians and I am only free to do what th ecorrupt, bribed politicians say I cna do?

no. thats just too bad currently. if your 'religion' decides to flout the laws of the land it is in, it can expect to receive the consequences of that law. i mean, whats to stop me from forming a 'religion' where we worship the sun, sacrifice virgins at dawn and eat parts of the dead? is that supposed to be okay with the US government cuz i said its my religion?

and i love your 'am i a slave' question, so florid. we are all slaves to something. the almighty dollar. alcohol. love. religion. sometimes all of those at once. and whoever told you you were free? 'whoever said that is your enemy'. the US has the most people incarcerated per capita than any country on the PLANET, yes including red china and the former soviet union. you are not free.if you think so, go take a day to do whatever you want and see what happens. don't pay your taxes. steal some stuff. get really really high. and see how long that last before you end up in jail.

enjoy your 'freedoms' citizen! while they are still allowed to you by your superiors.

Again, I will be coming back to this (ugh...today is "Family Fun Day" at my husband's unit, need to get going soon, but TOTALLY want to dedicate more time to this!):

Real quick- I actually don't drink but maybe a glass of wine once a month, or put wine into my food for cooking. For the exact reason I explained above. But I've been put into situations where I have to be on top of my game (I didn't begin drinking until I turned 21, and one of the nights that I DID drink to excess, I struggled to help a drunk teenager on the phone to help him get through an issue he was having. I never want to go through that again.

I was thinking about this today and it bugged me, though I did come up with perhaps a good system of drug use.

I would agree with the majority of people here and say that ALL drugs should be legalised. The intention behind making drugs illegal, obviously, is to stop people from getting them. If this happened then I suppose I wouldn't be THAT bothered by the fact that they are illegal. However, it obviously does not work and to be honest, who knows where your money goes down the line, but it's definitely not doing any good (I think just yesterday twenty bodies were dumped in Mexico by the drug cartels "as a warning" and that that is a reasonably regular occurence).

If they were to be legalised, when people are taking drugs they should just be aware of the effect that it has on them, or they can look at the effect that it has on other people. A lot of drugs are non-addictive (eg. Ketamine, MDMA, Marijuana, LSD) if you are taking them and it really has no impact on your life, why not take them? On the other hand if you see that something is not doing you any good, just stop taking it! I was a reasonably heavy pot smoker / regular drug user. I realised that doing drugs wasn't for me at all, although I still smoke dope once in a while, I'm more or less teetotal and it is for the better. I am not saying I am some sort of angel, nothing I did was addictive and it took very little will power, if any, to stop taking them. On the other hand I would never do something like heroin / crack cocaine, as you only have to look at the effect that it has on other people to see that it is something you shouldn't do.

I accept, however, that it can be extremely hard even to quit drugs that aren't 'hard'. A good friend of mine is a recovering addict who never took anything harder than Cocaine. He has not gone to prison etc. rather he, by his own volition, began going to NA meetings and took other steps to get clean which he has done.

Overall I guess my problem with drugs being illegal is 1) It funds some serious Scarface crime that kills thousands of people each year and 2) It puts people in prison completely unnecassarily, why not just put them in rehab which is cheaper and less damaging to the person (although I think if you have committed crime, even if it is under the influence, you should go to prison)

Strangely enough, I saw this link today:
http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/2M445t

Oddly enough I saw this link today....

http://news.yahoo.com/mexico-drug-wars-latest-toll-49-headless-bodies-060811826.html

The article doesn't state which particular set of narcotics the cartels are involved in but this is exactly the sort of problem that criminalisation creates. Legalised sources can be verified and regulated, non-legal sources can't so easily.