What it is that is our Mission.

Does anyone else have an opinion on this matter? I for one completely disagree, I do beleive that before the atrotious actions, yes they diserved our respect, and charity. By commiting these actions they no longer deserve any of that. They forfeit, their human rights in my eyes. Never should Rape or the molestation of a child be ok, or even allowed. Murder by its basic definition, could only be excusable in the defense of your own, or someone else's life from deadly force. Deadly force however should only be used as a last resort.

Dhagon Krayt

No where have I said that those things are ok. However, they are still human and still desere our love and compassion. It may in those cases manifest itself as pity, for thier ignorance, for their hate, for their lack of compassion. But it does not mean that we just abandon them. Those people need our love and aid more after those actions then before. They need to be corrected and to understand what it is they have done. They need those who can be responsible enough to care for them. To guide them and council them in an effort to re-direct thier energies toward peaceful action. But I would never disagree that rape, murder, molestation, or anything of that nature is evil or wrong. It most certainly is.

Aside from the few that are truly mentally handicapped, everyone of them know what they were going to do was wrong before they did it. They understand that it was wrong, and in most cases do it more than once. Your telling me I should love them and try to help them, your crazy. There is no rehabilitation for child molestation, they should be locked up for life, on the first offense. If and when they get back on the street, 99.9% of them will do it again, regarless of what they say in therapy and counseling. Some people do not deserve the rights they are given. Including the Judges that put 1st, 2nd and 3rd time offenders of child molestation back on the street with bullsh*t like 6 months probation or something similar. They deserve nothing. This is one of those things that weakens society, people truly think that there is good in everyone, its simply not true. We can continue this tomorrow, I gotta go.

Dhagon Krayt

I will continue right now. Yes, I'm saying you should love them just the same. I feel as though you are not reading what I am writing here. Pity is as much love as anyother form of love. It is compassionate. I have also said nothing about rehabilitation. I am saying that they need to be shown the error of thier ways. As I have said before, Maybe they need this from a prison or similar facility. But that does not mean that they should be hated. Obviously thier actions should be hated and stopped if at all possible. But the people themselves are still deserving of our Love, compassion, etc. Otherwise you do not believe this tenet of Jediism.

It does not say \"Jedi believe In the inherent worth of every person unless they commit attrocious or evil acts. People are worthy of respect, support, and caring just because they are human unless they commit evil acts of violence or atrocity.\"

It says \"Jedi Believe In the inherent worth of every person. People are worthy of respect, support, and caring just because they are human.\"

This is not interpretable in any other than than given.

I also want to add that I have not said that they should not be held responsible for their actions. They most certainly should be. But again, that does not mean they should be hated or abandoned from our love.

excuse my for being so naieve, but why should we even see faults in people? Wouldn't it just be better to look at a person, and see someone wonderful and beautiful..and not sinful or dirty.? I am not excusing violent or unlaw acts, but they are people too. I surely would want forgiveness if i were them. Wouldn't you?

Well, the first question is a bit more complicated than would first seem. one of the beliefs of a Jedi is \"In the importance of individual believers determining evil influences and policies within their chosen faith group, and advocate for their correction.\"

This is why we must see faults. Otherwise the corruption would spread like a disease of some kind. And of course someone Molesting Children needs to be stopped from committing that act and in order to stop them we need to be able to recognize that fault in order to stop and correct it.

To the rest of your statements the answer is a resounding yes. They should indeed be forgiven and loved just the same. That does not mean that they will not or should not pay the penalty of their actions but it does mean that we should not hate them.

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Aside from the few that are truly mentally handicapped, everyone of them know what they were going to do was wrong before they did it. They understand that it was wrong, and in most cases do it more than once. Your telling me I should love them and try to help them, your crazy. There is no rehabilitation for child molestation, they should be locked up for life, on the first offense. If and when they get back on the street, 99.9% of them will do it again, regarless of what they say in therapy and counseling. Some people do not deserve the rights they are given. Including the Judges that put 1st, 2nd and 3rd time offenders of child molestation back on the street with bullsh*t like 6 months probation or something similar. They deserve nothing. This is one of those things that weakens society, people truly think that there is good in everyone, its simply not true. We can continue this tomorrow, I gotta go.

Dhagon Krayt

We, really may seem cold and quick to judge but, I resonate with these words.

You are right and it were better for all that these types of individuals were never/born or made but, since they are/were then they should be summarily executed to save future suffering of the innocent, and so they can get a fresh start with a real change.

Summarily executed? That is not the Jedi way at all! My word, that is absurd not to mention obscene! In what way does our doctrine support that statement. It does not in any way.

I am very concerned with these statements. They have no basis in Jedi Philosophy at all. They are statements of hate. There is no mercy or compassion in summary execution. It would be very different if they were in some sort of suffering or something of that nature but in this sense that is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

Our teachings show us as \"Jedi are the guardians of peace and justice throughout the World. We use our abilities and powers to defend and protect, never to attack others. We respect all life, in all forms. We are humble and live to serve all living things. For the good of others, we seek to improve ourselves through knowledge and wisdom, on this journey that is never ending.\"

as well as \"9. Jedi protect the peace. We are warriors of peace, and are not ones to use force to resolve a conflict; it is through peace, understanding and harmony that conflicts resolve.\"

and \"10. Jedi believe in destiny and trust in the will of the Force. We accept the fact that what seems to be random events are not random at all, but the design of the Force. Each living creature has a purpose, understanding that purpose comes with a deep awareness of the Force. Even things that happen which seem negative have a purpose, though that purpose is not easy to see.\"

and finally \"15. Jedi are guardians of peace and justice. We believe in finding peaceful solutions to problems, gifted as we are we remain negotiators of the utmost ability. We never negotiate out of fear, but never fear to negotiate. We embrace justice, protecting and preserving the fundamental rights of all living creatures. Empathy and compassion are vital to us; it allows us to comprehend the wounds caused by injustice.\"

I think that you, Dhagon Krayt, are more or less seeing the perspective of evil doing people the same as Br. Whiteman, but from a different angle. Br. Whiteman is (correct me if I'm wrong) stating that by the Jedi codes of this church that we all voluntarily joined, all life, be it human, moss, dog, tree, bacteria, is inherently of worth and value, and that human beings by nature of being sentient beings deserve respect as living things. This is not to say that this respect outweighs their actions, and as you say there should be repercussions for a person's choices.

In christianity there is the phrase \"If a man slaps you on the cheek be at peace and turn the other\". The idea is that you have respect for him as a human being, and that through that you have unconditional love/value for his life. Now this extreme case of turning the other cheak, ie, letting the rapist go time and time again, is unrealistic, because it is detrimental to humanity. Their initial respect that is inherent upon birth prior to their actions, as you mentioned, still holds, but what they do in their life determines in what form they recieve that respect. Whereas a person could be considered a respectable member of society, when he commits a serious crime he should, by the Jedi code, be treated with respect, but also treated in reference to his actions. The further he goes in his evil actions the less freedom he is allowed and the more the respect changes in how it is expressed, ie, the more corrective teaching he needs. He may never get better, but the initial respect is enough that he should be given the chance to change.
This is more or less what the code is saying. Respect does not imply you give them free reign, but it does mean that you do not exterminate them because of their actions.

HesinRaca, you and I are of one mind in this.

I see you are appalled..... it's obvious you have no real experience with being the victim or being in the immediate family of a destroyed victim. You will never be able to understand until you have.

Summary execution for those type of individuals is a mercy killing for them and their would be victims of the future.

I do know of one way they could be allowed to live but, I'll speak of it later..... I don't have time to comment further at this moment.

Actually I have. And I forgave them. It is none of your business the circumstances of which this occurred but I have been the personal Victim of such activity. And that person is in prison. But I have forgiven them and pray often for them. and I would love them the same either way. That is the differance between a path of light and all other paths

same thing happened with the Amish didn't it? A man went in a shot up the school house. An act that most would never let go of. But the Amish did. They could have taken that man's family's lives apart, but they showed a forgiveness above all. So, it doesn't mean someone chouldn't pay for their actions, but ultimate forgiveness outweighs all.

War_Beauty wrote:

but ultimate forgiveness outweighs all.

I am not certain that it outweighs all, But it is a key part of our Love most assuredly.

Twsoundsoff wrote:

Actually I have. And I forgave them. It is none of your business the circumstances of which this occurred but I have been the personal Victim of such activity. And that person is in prison. But I have forgiven them and pray often for them. and I would love them the same either way. That is the differance between a path of light and all other paths

My heart goes out to you.

Well thank you, gaining your Pity was not my intent. I do however appreciate your sympathies. MTFBWY

As sympathies only no pity.

I appreciate that Jidunn. I really do. Have you also experienced this?No specifics are necessary of course.

Ok, I agree with most of HesinRaca's post with the inherent respect upon birth. I do not however agree that they are continued worty of respect after commiting such things. I do not and will not pity anyone, whether it is a sign of love or not, pity is also disrespect in my eyes. Lack of pity though is not a sign of respect either mind you. In pity-ing someone, you disrespect yourself as well. You allow yourself to be distracted and/or weakened either mentally or spiritually by others shortcomings. Let me put my view this way, maybe to make it more understandable for those who disagree with me. When I say that these sort of criminals are not deserving of our love or respect I say that because I believe that what ever they deserved before those actions have now been forfeited to the victim(s) of their crime. Instead of spending resources to help the criminal, they should be directed toward helping the victim. Whether those resources are monitary, spiritual prayers (depending on religions),gifts, counseling and so forth. Concider it sort of a reparation for crimes commited. Of course this \"reparation\" would not exclude the criminal from other punishments, like at a minimum, life in prison with no possibility of parole. I do infact agree with Jidun's comment about execution (go figure right). Once all court proceedings are finished, and there are no more appeals, why spend so much money giving these people a free place to live? The homeless would be better deserving of those funds. It costs about 6 cents for a bullet to the base of the skull. Maybe if these would be criminals had to fear for their life, instead of a free ride on the system, they would not commit these crimes in the first place. IF they still did, they would know the consequences of their actions. That would be TRUE JUSTICE.

Dhagon Krayt