Is the "self" an illusion?

Hi people.

I have just seen a very interesting video by a German YouTuber who is talking about spirituality. He quotes Alan Watts and Eckart Tolle amongst others, the video is very long and indeed quite good. Because it is in German I won't post a link here, because most of you won't be interested, if so, please let me know, I can still do so. Among other things he points out that the "self" is an illusion. He says that as all processes in the human body like the beating of ones heart, breathing and anything else, also thinking is an automatic process, so that there is no "thinker" who can influence these thoughts, but that those thoughts are thought automatically. We are just under the illusion that It is us who decide what to think and what not. What do you think about this? You see, I always come to this point when thinking about this: If I am not I but everyone and everything, why can't I simply switch perspectives, why can I only see what I see, only hear what I hear and only think what I think?

I guess my initial thought is, because we believe the illusion. Even if intellectually we can concede that self is illusion, I think for the vast majority of people we don't 100% believe it, in our guts.

Hey Tobias,

I'd love the link if you have it please

When I was studying psychology I learnt that your unconscious mind has already made a decision even before your conscious mind is aware of it. But my illusion is different from your illusion, my responses different from your responses. So perhaps it is no illusion, or perhaps it doesn't matter.

Depends on how you define the self. But even if it is an illusion, it's a coherent one.

The subconscious may come to a conclusion before the conscience mind has even had a chance to ponder the question. That is natural and necessary. Rather you believe we evolved that way or were made that way; or, were made to evolve that way… it is part of a defense mechanism that for the most part works pretty well.

For instance, you pass a dark, scary alley way and hear noises like something scurrying about down there. You instantly get chills, a slight fear passes over you and you think, “I don’t want to go down there.” When your conscience mind gets a second to think about it you realize that it was probably just a critter looking through trash trying to find something to eat that made the noise. It may be dark because the street lamps just weren’t positioned correctly to shine all the way down and across the alley but you can see the light on the other side. From what you can see, there is nowhere for anything that could be of any real threat to hide.

You can deduce that it is probably as safe as where you currently are but you still do not have the desire to walk down there. And without reason, why do it? Without a self, one could not have a conscience or subconscious. It is the very awareness of the self that causes us to ponder the self. The illusion is the lie we tell ourselves and others. Which is why Sir Campbell calls them our masks.

These masks are also a part of our subconscious and defense mechanism just as much as they are a part of our own delusions. An illusion is something that is perceived incorrectly because our senses were fooled. A Delusion is a belief or impression of a reality that is held on to despite evidence to the contrary.

A big part of Jediism is to teach people to recognize the illusion that others project and recognize them for the delusions they are. More importantly we are to identify our own delusion and address the issue that cause us to project them. I have no issue with illusion. That is still a fine defense mechanism that can be very beneficial. And we wouldn’t have magick tricks without illusion LOL

I am sure there illusion from me . It's like this one week want to be a vegan but my automate person is also establish in to the between torn of my force or body and the will to continue the other way . Is it because vegan people is around me and my mechanism is off the scale of that per destine feeling . Frankly this part of time thinking or illusion and how come and can feel these changes . And thinking so no influences just a per nature programmer ? Sense I am not absolute I like to evaluate or feel .

The inner self that the exterior wold see must be a some how a charismatic way to live for further teaching . As for experimenting illusion a little bit at my state of mind . I hope to control some part of these .

TobiasGeisel wrote: Hi people.

I have just seen a very interesting video by a German YouTuber who is talking about spirituality. He quotes Alan Watts and Eckart Tolle amongst others, the video is very long and indeed quite good. Because it is in German I won't post a link here, because most of you won't be interested, if so, please let me know, I can still do so. Among other things he points out that the "self" is an illusion. He says that as all processes in the human body like the beating of ones heart, breathing and anything else, also thinking is an automatic process, so that there is no "thinker" who can influence these thoughts, but that those thoughts are thought automatically. We are just under the illusion that It is us who decide what to think and what not. What do you think about this? You see, I always come to this point when thinking about this: If I am not I but everyone and everything, why can't I simply switch perspectives, why can I only see what I see, only hear what I hear and only think what I think?

I have met many people in my life worth ... being like. Their example is one that has made me directly a creator rather than a user. To give more than I take is a concept that isnt inside one simple faith or even one simple idea. The entire reason I some times love this place is that I get to see things not only in reading but in my own path when I actually try it. More than just words but ideas work for many people in different ways. This is just what I have experienced. One ounce of love distributed in such ways that made me want to serve it just like that. There are TONS of stuff and information about the self out there you can get lost in just organization of the subject itself. My real questions to those who ask any type of self reflective question is WHY are you asking...AS in what ya looking for friend? By asking this type of question, what exactly is it your looking for? What type of example can you find? What's possible?

Why ask about the self and what type of answer do you seek?
Looking for a text book answer... you know where to go.
Seeking an answer with some experience in it as well, with a little proof??? This is what ELDERS are for. We all have em and we all know of at least 2 good ones in our path if not more.
By my path , the self and the green eyed dragon of mine and everything I have found has sat down and had a few cups of tea with a few good people and therapist and loved ones. Not a easy task but over all I have grown from it and I recommend every one to figure their own balance on this- especially- its important. So many people identify the self in many ways, ME- I am one who walks the path to ask myself things I can figure and grow and a few change.

Real talk , I know people of a certain sect... who are jerks and sinister in their ways. Same sect are those who are a joy to be in the presence of and even the mere remembrance is still full of JOY to this day. Is it the Sect or them that lingers? Honestly, most times its their balance I CANT FORGET. Ever met any one with the "SELF" you would like or at least is worth seeking or asking over?

Greetings Fellow Jedi,

I believe "Self" is real. That is why l focus to be selfless. Newton's 2nd Law, Force = Mass x Acceleration (F=MA) teachs me that all things known and unknown, measured and unmeasured are the Force. There are countless "self" that create infinity. Selflessness is real. We are the atoms of the universes yet the Force is one.

The illusion part is believing we understand it.

TobiasGeisel wrote: He says that as all processes in the human body like the beating of ones heart, breathing and anything else, also thinking is an automatic process, so that there is no "thinker" who can influence these thoughts, but that those thoughts are thought automatically. We are just under the illusion that It is us who decide what to think and what not.

A heart is still a heart, and breathing it still breathing, despite the fact that it is an automatic process.

A tree is still a tree, even if how tall it grows, how green and how it bends all depend on its environment.

And though you might propose there is no thinker to influence these thoughts, there still has to be a thinker that is the object of said influence.

I don't feel that stating that there is no self is the most logical conclusion here (granted, I only have your excerpt and have not seen the full video you reference), but rather, the real question becomes whether the self has any free will, or are all our responses predetermined by a cascade of thought, stimuli and environment that has come before us.

The Matrix: Reloaded does a good job at asking (and not answering!) this same question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHZl2naX1Xk

I would say the identity of self is an illusion sure. A product of the mind. I would say the self in presence ie the moment is the universe expressing itself. The forces will allowing us to see, feel, hear, and taste the universe. Presence or being in the moment as one may say is the ultimate connection to the universe.

That is why I believe meditation and following deep passions brings us closer to God, the force, or the universe however you wish to describe that connection. Just my perception though.

It is definitely a fun concept to ponder. :laugh:

I don't know that I would call the "self" an illusion, because our experience of it is a very real one.

I would say that the idea of "self" being something that is somehow fixed or beyond our "control" is an illusion.

We believe that the way we are is just a fact, a circumstance. Its not. Its a belief in who we are based on countless thoughts, choices and actions.

It is always malleable, always changing.

And always within your control.

My personal take is that the self is only an illusion in so much that reality itself is an illusion. What is real? What we "see" and experience is are signals that have to be interpreted by the brain.

The subconscious mind isn't a different mind, but rather the bulk of what the mind is; under the "surface" of consciousness like an iceberg only partially exposed.

When we sleep and dream we simply explore more of the iceberg.

The illusion is the distinction. The illusion is created by the surface of the water, limiting what you can see along with the DEPTH of the water, limiting how far down you can explore.

The iceberg is simply too big of a "database" to consciously navigate the whole thing. So the mind has evolved mechanisms to process information within the subconscious so that you can react fasters, such as the defense mechanism Wescli talked about.

Before "Intelligence" could rise up from the neural network, it still had to protect itself. It still had to evolve defense mechanisms that have simply evolved into more complex understandings of fear. But the fight/flight response is still carried over from the animal kingdom. Somewhere inside, we're still probably worried about getting "eaten".

I like to think of consciousness as a choir of synapses. You could say each one isn't intelligent on its own and that it is only the complex communication between the many, that produces one voice. This one voice may be an illusion produced by the sound of many different cells reacting to changes in their environment.

However, I don't think every thought can be a reaction to stimuli because even if we might be provoked to love by the need to reproduce or care for our offspring, we still develop complex personas and we often choose to love when there is no need.

There is a balance between chaos and order and our personality forms in that mixture and we're always choosing; creating micro-decisions that create feedback that contributes to who we are as much as the things we don't choose. It's just like how we can breathe autonomously or we can choose to take over breathing.

When I speak to myself, I highly doubt I'm the only person who makes that reference in the plural. I think that was instinctive, but also a choice.

As others have said, it seems all awareness is fragmentary and temporary... the antidote to such things might be wisdom and bliss, found by peering into the mind and space, respectively. Not to suggest we need an antidote to self, but it seems fair to imagine that such a thing would manifest by having an ontological reductionist pathway to monism ie there is no self so it must be an illusion.

But we perceive ourselves as distinct physical beings, and it would seem we have apparatus within each of us that generates the experience of perception to that distinction, and within the larger system of systems it seems we are individuals bought into existence within it. What was the question again!? :silly:

I'll say what I said in a similar thread. Does it matter?

Whether the self is an illusion or real is irrelevant. We still do what we choose, live our lives and go after what we desire.

Real and unreal are no more than nomenclature that indicate how little we understand.

I do think that whether self is an illusion or not matters; maybe not in the day to day business of modern life but in the grand scheme. If self is an illusion, it would be useful to my spiritual life to spend time working to see what lies beneath it. It may be possible to deconstruct and reconstruct self to a greater extent if it's illusory as well, and that seems like it could be valuable.

Awareness of self or consciousness is a combination of our simultaneous perception of our internal biological process and our outer environment. These perceptions transmodulate together to form what we perceive as consciousness which I propose is indeed an illusion or effect of the brain. This effect, or sensation, is generally what people see as the soul, spirit, mind or consciousness. This ‘awareness’ is inert but subject to an ‘observer effect’ that elevates perceived brain process to what we commonly believe to be an integral part of our existence; a separate ethereal entity, consciousness, ‘Matrix’ of the mind or force. If you concentrate on the simultaneous perceptions or 'awareness' I believe that you should be able to sense what I mean.

I wouldn't say an illusion really.

And we probably ought not consider those who speak before the Royal Society as "YouTubers".

Thus, having read her book on this very subject, I'm posting one of the last (if not the last) intervention(s) one of my favourite moral philosophers.

I hope you enjoy and learn from this...

Bon réveillon à tous !

Enjoyed the Youtube clip, thanks.

My use of the word ‘illusion’ does not mean that the 'awareness of self' does not exist but is not what it seems. Everyone experiences some form of self, but what we experience is a thin veil of perception generated by our brains. The self is not a single unified entity but a number of sensations, perceptions, and thoughts produced by the brain; a centripetal force of the self. When I concentrate and attempt to isolate both inner and outer perceptions processed by the brain I experience a slight vertigo sensation which I interpret to be that 'force of self'.