Is the "self" an illusion?

More
28 Mar 2021 18:47 #359338 by Tobias
Hi people.

I have just seen a very interesting video by a German YouTuber who is talking about spirituality. He quotes Alan Watts and Eckart Tolle amongst others, the video is very long and indeed quite good. Because it is in German I won't post a link here, because most of you won't be interested, if so, please let me know, I can still do so. Among other things he points out that the "self" is an illusion. He says that as all processes in the human body like the beating of ones heart, breathing and anything else, also thinking is an automatic process, so that there is no "thinker" who can influence these thoughts, but that those thoughts are thought automatically. We are just under the illusion that It is us who decide what to think and what not. What do you think about this? You see, I always come to this point when thinking about this: If I am not I but everyone and everything, why can't I simply switch perspectives, why can I only see what I see, only hear what I hear and only think what I think?

You must unlearn what you have learned.

Teaching Master: Rosalyn J
The following user(s) said Thank You: Edan, Carlos.Martinez3, Rex, Metacaum

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
28 Mar 2021 19:15 #359339 by River
Replied by River on topic Is the "self" an illusion?
I guess my initial thought is, because we believe the illusion. Even if intellectually we can concede that self is illusion, I think for the vast majority of people we don't 100% believe it, in our guts.

IP / SIP lessons and learnings
River's Journal

Apprentice lessons and learnings
River's Apprentice Journal

Informal lessons and learnings
River's Rememberies
The following user(s) said Thank You: Metacaum

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
28 Mar 2021 19:28 - 28 Mar 2021 19:28 #359342 by Edan
Replied by Edan on topic Is the "self" an illusion?
Hey Tobias,

I'd love the link if you have it please :)

When I was studying psychology I learnt that your unconscious mind has already made a decision even before your conscious mind is aware of it. But my illusion is different from your illusion, my responses different from your responses. So perhaps it is no illusion, or perhaps it doesn't matter.

Head Moderator | Membership Affairs

Walk slowly if you must

Current apprentices - Vampiric_Conure, Llama Su
House of Jestor

Solve et Coagula

Please contact me: moderator1 [at] templeofthejediorder.org
Last edit: 28 Mar 2021 19:28 by Edan.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Metacaum

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2021 01:52 #359346 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic Is the "self" an illusion?
Depends on how you define the self. But even if it is an illusion, it's a coherent one.

Knights Secretary's Secretary
Apprentices: Vandrar
TM: Carlos Martinez
"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes" - Wittgenstein
The following user(s) said Thank You: Metacaum

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2021 11:09 #359349 by Wescli Wardest

The subconscious may come to a conclusion before the conscience mind has even had a chance to ponder the question. That is natural and necessary. Rather you believe we evolved that way or were made that way; or, were made to evolve that way… it is part of a defense mechanism that for the most part works pretty well.

For instance, you pass a dark, scary alley way and hear noises like something scurrying about down there. You instantly get chills, a slight fear passes over you and you think, “I don’t want to go down there.” When your conscience mind gets a second to think about it you realize that it was probably just a critter looking through trash trying to find something to eat that made the noise. It may be dark because the street lamps just weren’t positioned correctly to shine all the way down and across the alley but you can see the light on the other side. From what you can see, there is nowhere for anything that could be of any real threat to hide.

You can deduce that it is probably as safe as where you currently are but you still do not have the desire to walk down there. And without reason, why do it? Without a self, one could not have a conscience or subconscious. It is the very awareness of the self that causes us to ponder the self. The illusion is the lie we tell ourselves and others. Which is why Sir Campbell calls them our masks.

These masks are also a part of our subconscious and defense mechanism just as much as they are a part of our own delusions. An illusion is something that is perceived incorrectly because our senses were fooled. A Delusion is a belief or impression of a reality that is held on to despite evidence to the contrary.

A big part of Jediism is to teach people to recognize the illusion that others project and recognize them for the delusions they are. More importantly we are to identify our own delusion and address the issue that cause us to project them. I have no issue with illusion. That is still a fine defense mechanism that can be very beneficial. And we wouldn’t have magick tricks without illusion LOL :P


Monastic Order of Knights
The following user(s) said Thank You: PatrickB, ZealotX, Metacaum

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2021 13:34 #359351 by PatrickB
Replied by PatrickB on topic Is the "self" an illusion?
I am sure there illusion from me . It's like this one week want to be a vegan but my automate person is also establish in to the between torn of my force or body and the will to continue the other way . Is it because vegan people is around me and my mechanism is off the scale of that per destine feeling . Frankly this part of time thinking or illusion and how come and can feel these changes . And thinking so no influences just a per nature programmer ? Sense I am not absolute I like to evaluate or feel .

The inner self that the exterior wold see must be a some how a charismatic way to live for further teaching . As for experimenting illusion a little bit at my state of mind . I hope to control some part of these .

To the one that graduates always follows a path .
The following user(s) said Thank You: Metacaum

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2021 15:01 #359352 by Carlos.Martinez3

TobiasGeisel wrote: Hi people.

I have just seen a very interesting video by a German YouTuber who is talking about spirituality. He quotes Alan Watts and Eckart Tolle amongst others, the video is very long and indeed quite good. Because it is in German I won't post a link here, because most of you won't be interested, if so, please let me know, I can still do so. Among other things he points out that the "self" is an illusion. He says that as all processes in the human body like the beating of ones heart, breathing and anything else, also thinking is an automatic process, so that there is no "thinker" who can influence these thoughts, but that those thoughts are thought automatically. We are just under the illusion that It is us who decide what to think and what not. What do you think about this? You see, I always come to this point when thinking about this: If I am not I but everyone and everything, why can't I simply switch perspectives, why can I only see what I see, only hear what I hear and only think what I think?



I have met many people in my life worth ... being like. Their example is one that has made me directly a creator rather than a user. To give more than I take is a concept that isnt inside one simple faith or even one simple idea. The entire reason I some times love this place is that I get to see things not only in reading but in my own path when I actually try it. More than just words but ideas work for many people in different ways. This is just what I have experienced. One ounce of love distributed in such ways that made me want to serve it just like that. There are TONS of stuff and information about the self out there you can get lost in just organization of the subject itself. My real questions to those who ask any type of self reflective question is WHY are you asking...AS in what ya looking for friend? By asking this type of question, what exactly is it your looking for? What type of example can you find? What's possible?

Why ask about the self and what type of answer do you seek?
Looking for a text book answer... you know where to go.
Seeking an answer with some experience in it as well, with a little proof??? This is what ELDERS are for. We all have em and we all know of at least 2 good ones in our path if not more.
By my path , the self and the green eyed dragon of mine and everything I have found has sat down and had a few cups of tea with a few good people and therapist and loved ones. Not a easy task but over all I have grown from it and I recommend every one to figure their own balance on this- especially- its important. So many people identify the self in many ways, ME- I am one who walks the path to ask myself things I can figure and grow and a few change.

Real talk , I know people of a certain sect... who are jerks and sinister in their ways. Same sect are those who are a joy to be in the presence of and even the mere remembrance is still full of JOY to this day. Is it the Sect or them that lingers? Honestly, most times its their balance I CANT FORGET. Ever met any one with the "SELF" you would like or at least is worth seeking or asking over?

Contact The Clergy
Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The Block
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
The following user(s) said Thank You: Wescli Wardest, Ghost, Metacaum

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2021 20:06 - 29 Mar 2021 20:07 #359353 by Metacaum
Replied by Metacaum on topic Is the "self" an illusion?
Greetings Fellow Jedi,

I believe "Self" is real. That is why l focus to be selfless. Newton's 2nd Law, Force = Mass x Acceleration (F=MA) teachs me that all things known and unknown, measured and unmeasured are the Force. There are countless "self" that create infinity. Selflessness is real. We are the atoms of the universes yet the Force is one.
Last edit: 29 Mar 2021 20:07 by Metacaum.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Carlos.Martinez3

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2021 22:13 #359355 by rugadd
Replied by rugadd on topic Is the "self" an illusion?
The illusion part is believing we understand it.

rugadd
The following user(s) said Thank You: Carlos.Martinez3, Rex, Metacaum

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
30 Mar 2021 23:14 #359367 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic Is the "self" an illusion?

TobiasGeisel wrote: He says that as all processes in the human body like the beating of ones heart, breathing and anything else, also thinking is an automatic process, so that there is no "thinker" who can influence these thoughts, but that those thoughts are thought automatically. We are just under the illusion that It is us who decide what to think and what not.


A heart is still a heart, and breathing it still breathing, despite the fact that it is an automatic process.

A tree is still a tree, even if how tall it grows, how green and how it bends all depend on its environment.

And though you might propose there is no thinker to influence these thoughts, there still has to be a thinker that is the object of said influence.

I don't feel that stating that there is no self is the most logical conclusion here (granted, I only have your excerpt and have not seen the full video you reference), but rather, the real question becomes whether the self has any free will, or are all our responses predetermined by a cascade of thought, stimuli and environment that has come before us.

The Matrix: Reloaded does a good job at asking (and not answering!) this same question:


Problems that remain persistently insoluble should always be suspected as questions asked in the wrong way - Alan Watts
The following user(s) said Thank You: Metacaum

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Moderators: RexZero