A Jedi Mission: Defeating White Nationalism

This conversation with Lykeios:
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/119330-ok-so-how-should-we-deal-with-hate-and-intolerance

where Alethea Thompson posted this video:


Inspired me to make this thread, wherein I hope to provide the following and would like your help (and also a huge THANK YOU to Lykeios and Aletha)

1) An ongoing analysis of the white nationalist movement: what it is, how it emerged, who its members are, what they believe, what they want, the arguments and evidences that they use to justify and promote their cause, the risks that they pose to society, and their strengths and weaknesses as a social movement.

2) A resource for practical, logical, and compelling counter arguments to their claims, alternative solutions to what they view as the problems which compel them to their positions, and strategies for exploiting their vulnerabilities.

3) An "interaction and response model" that we can follow when we engage in this cultural discussion that is effective (meaning that it is accurate, convincing, and capable of influencing public opinion on the honest merits of its points), befitting of a Jedi, (so that we interact with people in such a way that the rest of the community is not only proud us for what we say, but also for how we say it) and which hopefully will have the broader effect of setting examples to others of how to analyze and respond to difficult topics, in a mature and well-considered manner.

4) A strategy for utilizing social media to positively affect the larger cultural dialogue.

5) The above points culminating in a systematic program for encouraging healthy social change which can be adapted and applied to other important cultural issues in the future.

6) Miscellaneous: This is just an acknowledgement of the "unknown unknowns".There might be something important that we discover as we develop this process which we are completely unaware of right now, so this is a place holder for that eventuality. Maybe thats what people mean when they say "overthinking" lol

Most of that is just a fancy way of saying "how to win a debate online" lol but the intended aim and scope here is much larger and more positive than any flame war. It would be an exercise in many of the skills that Jedi seek to cultiviate, such as critical thinking and analysis, diplomacy, composure, and empathy while dealing with (often difficult) people, and an opportunity to devote some of our internet time to doing someting that really could help make society better, even if only in a small way (although, there is no telling how far our influence may reach if we are consistent, the internet is funny that way)

Ive already begun working on this as an individual project, and I have a sizable portion of what ive listed above worked out mentally already. I only have so much time in the day however, and besides the effort of posting what ive worked out so far, theres still quite a lot of work yet to be done. Also, im not sure if this violates the part of the doctrine about getting involved in political stuff.. But imo its important and a community of Jedi is much smarter and more resourceful than a singe Jedi, and i would like your help. Let me know that youre interested in this project by hitting the thank you button to this introduction, posting in this topic, or sending me a PM.

Damn you Ob1, you are going to make us actually work towards actionable solutions, instead of letting us chat all day about lightsabers? :laugh:

This thread gets +10000000

I'll have to think on this one a bit, but off the top of my head:

When I was growing up, one of the largest propaganda pieces was that the Rockerfeller family and other Jewish groups were controlling the world's governments. I believe the push was to reinstate the Protocols of Zion. Fortunately that's died a lot since 9/11, unfortunately the sentiment is being revived because George Soros has a lot of money and he's putting his money into groups that people which align with White Nationalism and Nazis don't like. Then there is the propaganda surrounding the elites that are affiliated with the Skull and Bones cult. I think you get where I'm going with this- conspiracy theories are very much tied to the world of the extreme right. One reason these theories can make a lot of sense to people is because humans have a thing about taking connections and patterns to their extremes when they really get to thinking.

Growing up, I learned to reject that these sorts of people have any kind of control over my personal life. They don't work with people on the micro-scale, so it really didn't matter what they did. It won't actually impact the average person if they just take their lives into their own hands. The more people that take control of their own life, the less the any conspiracy (real or imagined) will be able to take hold of the world.

I think that's the majority of the battle right there. Helping people to find that they have the most control over what happens to them. For those that cannot get jobs easily (and let's face it, the economy needs a lot of help), we can work to empower them in becoming entrepreneurs or small business owners.

Just off the top of my head. If I can think of something else I'll come back in and post it

Alethea Thompson wrote: I'll have to think on this one a bit, but off the top of my head:

When I was growing up, one of the largest propaganda pieces was that the Rockerfeller family and other Jewish groups were controlling the world's governments. I believe the push was to reinstate the Protocols of Zion. Fortunately that's died a lot since 9/11, unfortunately the sentiment is being revived because George Soros has a lot of money and he's putting his money into groups that people which align with White Nationalism and Nazis don't like. Then there is the propaganda surrounding the elites that are affiliated with the Skull and Bones cult. I think you get where I'm going with this- conspiracy theories are very much tied to the world of the extreme right. One reason these theories can make a lot of sense to people is because humans have a thing about taking connections and patterns to their extremes when they really get to thinking.

I think a huge part of the problem is that there is a huge disconnect between what we are taught in school as children and how the world really works. First off, we are not taught very much about how economy and the politics of economics work. The idea that we just have to work hard and we will have our dream life is hammered into our psyche, and when we finally do become adults and find out we aren't quite where we want to be, it's more cognitive-dissonant to realize our education was wrong, than it is to start looking for those responsible (scapegoats). So, if we are minorities, we might blame white privilege. If we are white, we might blame the ultra-rich manipulating everything from behind the curtains. It's easier to feed (and harder to disprove) a conspiracy theory, than it is to fight the mainstream ideas we grew up with and are accepted by everyone.

Thus, I do agree with your conclusion Ally... the best thing to do is empower people so that they feel they actually are in control of their lives.

Thanks Ally, thats a great example of the beinefits of brainstorming together: i hadnt thought of that argument. My response to "the Jewish problem" as tehy seem to call it, is basically that just beause people are of the same race, doesnt mean they are actually collaborating. Trump and Bill Clinton and GW Bush are all the same race, and so were many of their voters, but they werent collaborators.

Other than that i havent even looked much at the Jewish thing, because its got more history and detail than probably any other piece of their idology. And they have so many sources with so many claims that itlooks like quite a task to sort out whats factual and whats not and where the facts are basically right buthe interpretation of them isnt.
What you just shared is a logical short cut through some of that.

I wrote the below recently in response to my take on the 21 Maxims in Lesson 5 of the IP. This Maxim seems to apply, along with several others I could readily identify...

Morality: To know the danger of belief.

A Jedi knows how contradicting beliefs of what is right and wrong can lead to devastating crimes and conflicts. A Jedi takes a step away from the subjectivity of opinion in favour of the peace of objectivity. A Jedi does not force their values upon others.

Morality is a complex, compounding, and ever fluctuating definition of that which a society holds to be most important at that single glimpse in time. As Jedi we realize that morality, while at times commendable in their notions, are not the unalterable truth of the universe as it transcends, but are merely the words society uses to create its own goals, rules, or expectations of behavior, often without regard to whether it aligns with the universal constant of the eternal now and the transcendence of energy throughout all its parts. A Jedi does not need a moral compass to understand what society is intending to call right or wrong from one moment to another. A Jedi need only to understand the natural rhythm of the universe.

So here, my question would be more of whether 1) a Jedi truly "needs" to intervene in such a large, complex, and passionate discussion where the victory/defeat of either position is even remotely likely, because 2) wouldn't such intervention equate to Jedi exacerbating the issue by selecting a side and advocating for our worldview, forcing our beliefs, upon others?

It would seem more fruitful to look at the very raw background influences on either side of such questions, and understand those equally, to the Nth degree, and find the balancing point there...rather than to hastily take positions on an issue that runs so deep and varies so widely even across and within the varying parties themselves. Creating an initiative with the goal of winning the day is unlikely to produce results not specifically countered to what we might define as indicators of having "won" anything. For when we step down these paths we have already formulated our own perspectives and opinions of what is true and what is not, and what is good and what is wrong, and what needs to be done and what is unhelpful. Thus, when we foster discussion, seek avenues of change, or formulate methods of how to act, they are all influenced by our original position, and tend not to be very flexible and open to influence by the actual circumstances or information a more reserved and thoughtful process might bring to light.

I feel it here becomes more "Jedi" of me to adopt a pure neutral position here, perhaps look into my own self first and find the resolve our Tenets, Code, Creed, Teachings, and Maxims would lead me to see in regard to the issue at hand, then simply be that, live that, espouse that, and allow any influence my character and actions may have - wherever they may have them - to speak for themselves.

SamThift wrote: I feel it here becomes more "Jedi" of me to adopt a pure neutral position here, perhaps look into my own self first and find the resolve our Tenets, Code, Creed, Teachings, and Maxims would lead me to see in regard to the issue at hand, then simply be that, live that, espouse that, and allow any influence my character and actions may have - wherever they may have them - to speak for themselves.

Actions are the evidence of true belief, granted. But the title might be misleading the "posture" we are tying to take here. Defeating White Nationalism does not mean siding with its political opposites (BLM, Antifa, etc.), but rather, trying to disarm biased positions in general. There is no way you can disarm white nationalism while crying "privilege" to them... it is inherently alienating. What needs to be done is to disband the idea of "XYZ Pride" altogether.

After all, I am latino, but what sense would there be in taking pride in it... it is a circumstance of birth, and makes me no better or worse than any one else.

Manu wrote:

SamThift wrote: I feel it here becomes more "Jedi" of me to adopt a pure neutral position here, perhaps look into my own self first and find the resolve our Tenets, Code, Creed, Teachings, and Maxims would lead me to see in regard to the issue at hand, then simply be that, live that, espouse that, and allow any influence my character and actions may have - wherever they may have them - to speak for themselves.

Actions are the evidence of true belief, granted. But the title might be misleading the "posture" we are tying to take here. Defeating White Nationalism does not mean siding with its political opposites (BLM, Antifa, etc.), but rather, trying to disarm biased positions in general. There is no way you can disarm white nationalism while crying "privilege" to them... it is inherently alienating. What needs to be done is to disband the idea of "XYZ Pride" altogether.

After all, I am latino, but what sense would there be in taking pride in it... it is a circumstance of birth, and makes me no better or worse than any one else.

If we rest solely on the notion that the action to be accomplished is to "disband the idea of 'XYZ Pride' altogether", then what form does that take? What methods do we utilize to disband this pridefulness, without ourselves succumbing to the same fallacies of pride in feeling proud that we have disbanded all pride?

It is such a "double-edged-sword" if you will, where we are assuming there are only two conditions present: One of an XYZ Pride, and the opposite of "No" Pride. This places the question into a game of absolutes, where you are either prideful of something or you are not ("insert Obi-Wan meme"), but it fails to look at whether pride is something that can even truly exist, and likewise whether we can be unprideful without the remnant existence of pride at all?

The general assertion is that we find a common ground, unity, a mutual sentiment of intrinsically similar conditions where all can share in the sense of brotherhood and likeness without regard to their XYZs. However, even generalizing the presence of an XYZ possibility acknowledges the truth of the matter where those differences exist. Rather than defeating Pride, or allowing it to rule the day, perhaps we should be exploring the intermediating influences between and around the two, and looking more for that other variable which allows pride to exist alongside every other sentiment or emotion the individual or the group could possibly experience?

Hold on you guys, i see theres enough interest at least to merit further explanation. Give me some time to address your points Sam, and hopefully you will see that despite the word "defeat" what i have in mind is (mostly) not a combative program. We arent trying to defeat PEOPLE, and higher level of social unity and cohesion is the end goal

EDIT: go back and read #3 and the paragraph following #6

The problem of race-based pride and supremacist movements is stuck on a timer. As time goes on, especially in the US, so-called ethnic or racial "purity" disappears. With a combination of immigration and cultural homogenization, there are some predicting that it will be less than 100 years before the distinct racial groups which exist today no longer exist. The number of "white" or "black" or "Asian" people, etc, is going to inevitably drop to zero. If the current trends (reproductive trends) continue these problems will not exist in the not so distant future.

That isn't to say that white supremacy or any other kind of racism is acceptable, but that time isn't on their side.