Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...)

SeanChing wrote: Senior Knight Akkarin,

I acknowledge your opinions, but I respectfully disagree with many of them.

Fair enough lol

I'm in the same position that you are it seems

I like the prequals, but I think they do have a few serious issues. I think the Phantom Menace was made for children < 10 years of age, and so I think Jar Jar should have killed by Darth Maul and Qui Jon felt a bit guilty so he became unbalanced by emotion when he fought and lost to Maul. Jar Jar had no place beyond the Phantom Menace. Clone Wars could have then been for 8 - 16 yr olds, no Jar Jar. I dont really agree with the video review, as I think they are not meant to be individual movies, but viewed as a set of 6 - unfortunatly the original's look more realistic then the prequals to watching them all back to back makes the eps1-3 feel quite fake with all that CGI. I did like the proposal of that video reviewer for the clones to be sort of a mutant Sith army wreaking havoc allowing Palpatine to rise up in power, that sounds awesome. I guess all those EU books might have meant Lucas felt cornered into a particular storyline which means the new ones do seem a bit of sell out from its artistic potential.

@Akkarin

Those videos are so damn funny. If I had a beverage next to my computer, it would be splashed all over my screen by now...

But, I will comment on a particular thing you said:

"There is also no fundamental subtle moral teachings in the prequels."

I guess it depends what you mean by subtle. One person's subtle is another person's deer in the headlights.

I can think of 3 off the top of my head (in no order of subtlety):

1) When Qui-Gon tells Anakin to quiet your mind and you'll feel the Force speaking to you.

I look it that as meditation and quieting your mind and closing out all the distraction around you. A good thing. A positive.

2) Yoda tells Anakin, "train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." That teaches us a lot and opens up many positive possibilities about fear and attachment

(One of my favorites below, and arguably the most subtle)

3) Qui-Gon is fighting Darth Maul and is starting to tire. He kneels to meditate while Darth Maul paces hungrily. That is an awesome scene to me. We have a Jedi Warrior that is facing someone that is just better/stronger/faster than he is. In his meditation and calming of his mind, he probably realizes, I'm gonna die here. But rather than turn tail and run, he gathers the strength that he has and rushes Darth Maul with everything he's got. He rushes Maul! I don't think he had expectations to live, but he was not going to cower against an enemy.

I think there are MANY lessons, moral and otherwise, subtle and otherwise, we can take from that scene alone.

But again, those videos had me laughing good. I am in debt to you as I will share them with my brothers who are also Star Wars fans.

MTFBWY,
LTK

Learn_To_Know wrote: 3) Qui-Gon is fighting Darth Maul and is starting to tire. He kneels to meditate while Darth Maul paces hungrily. That is an awesome scene to me. We have a Jedi Warrior that is facing someone that is just better/stronger/faster than he is. In his meditation and calming of his mind, he probably realizes, I'm gonna die here. But rather than turn tail and run, he gathers the strength that he has and rushes Darth Maul with everything he's got. He rushes Maul! I don't think he had expectations to live, but he was not going to cower against an enemy.

That's one of the first scenes I thought of when you said subtle teachings

What I probably should have said is that the originals had FAR MORE moral teachings and philosophical teachings

They are a lesson whereas the prequels are more of just a fancy shiny new film with flashing lights


I'm glad people have been enjoying them

redlettermedia is amazing! lol

Hi all. My computer died on campus, so I didn't get to elaborate on what I mean. Here is why I disagree with you, Akkarin. (After all, I don't think it would be adequate if I just said I disagree without an explanation/forum bumper)

SeanChing wrote:
- A lot more talking and less action in general

- Yoda is a cackling idiot for the first few minutes you meet him

Akkarin wrote:
You obviously don't understand the entire point of the trilogy then


First of all, I admit that my first statement, less action and more talking, shows that I'm a little superficial about movies in general. However, I like to watch movies because they are exciting, so I don't see a huge problem when I complain that the OT wasn't that exciting.

My second point, however, I will heartily defend. (I'm interested to see if you will agree or try to rebuttal.)

I said that I thought a major flaw with the OT was that "Yoda is a cackling idiot for the first few minutes you meet him" and Akkarin said that I didn't understand the point of the trilogy then.


Actually, here's why I do.

1) Yoda contradicts himself by acting that way. At first, he acts all goofy and senile and seems as though he has completely lost his mind and is completely incoherent. "Ooh! My flashlight! *Hits R2*"
Then, shortly after, when he reveals his "true" self, he teaches Luke, "A Jedi Must have the most Serious of minds" (something like that). If a Jedi has to be so serious, then why was he acting like such a mindless derp?

Now some people have come up with a flawed explanation that "Yoda was testing Luke's patience", but I don't buy that. A test is (from my experience) structured and by the book so that the tester can test the testee's skills by isolating variables.

When Yoda is supposedly testing Luke, by acting foolish, he goes about it very freely and without thought - I don't even think George Lucas wrote a script for that part. It was just the Yoda voice talking nonsense and yelling "ooh, oh! woah!" and "my flashlight! *Hits R2"


Talk about about a bad Yoda Script. And you guys complain about the prequel's bad dialogue, hmm???


2) Here another way Yoda contradicts himself. Luke asks, "is the dark side stronger" and Yoda quickly says "no no no! Quicker, Easier, more seductive".

If the dark side is "quicker", then why did Yoda reply with such a hasty response?


To be honest, when I watched the Empire Strikes Back for the first time, many moons ago, I actually thought Yoda was on the dark side and tricking Luke. After all, he has that dark side cave (which can confuse new viewer's about Yoda's intentions)and his voice is very raspy which made me think he was evil at first.

Again, some sketchy dialogue in the OT.



Now personally, I love all six Star Wars movies, and I certainly love the OT. However, get real guys! The OT is very flawed, just like the prequels, so it shouldn't be attacked so much, in my humble opinion.


3) I think that one of the reasons why people hate the prequels and love the OT is that the prequels came second while the OT came first. The first movie (out of all movie series) usually gets all the credit, and the movie director can never get a same response for sequels.



Please continue debating, if you feel the urge to! I love to debate about controversial Star Wars topics, especially with you guys, because I know we can disagree and still be a friendly community

Warning; I love Yoda's character and will defend it to the death!!!

1.
Yoda was being non-threatening, vulnerable, and annoying, deliberatly to ascertain the nature of Luke's personality - remember this is first contact between them. Yoda's was giving Luke a reason to get angry, as many people cannot control their anger and have too short a fuse.

I think Yoda's action would be suitable whether he knew in advance from Obi-Wans Force spirit or premonition, or if he didnt know who this guy was crash landing in his backyard to determine how to deal with it.

I think it is am important lesson in the Jedi way that knowledge is important before making decisions about someone.

2.
I think its actually a quite enlightened response from Yoda. If we look at the Three Pillars of Star Ways Jedi in context of how the Jedi view the dark side as a selfish path, then;

Force - Quicker, connecting to the Force through oneself (selfish) might be quicker then by everything around you (Jedi)

Knowledge - Easier, knowing yourself is much easier then knowing about everything around you.

Self-Discipline - More seductive, self explanatory.

So to answer, I'd say Yoda is well learned in the dark side, and didnt need to think about the response, as evidenced by an immediate reply framed in the context of the Jedi Pillars. So not only is it not sketchy, it could be seen as educative!

I dont think Yoda owned the whole planet, and it might be why he chose to live where he did because there was a dark place nearby - to keep an eye on it and anyone who visits.

Go Yoda!

I'm just going to mention the Yoda part.

He was alone, completely alone for 30 years there was no evidence of him communicating with Obi Wan either.

Anyway, if you try to spend even 30 days completely alone you'll go a little bit fruit loopy. Let alone 30 years.

Trust me. That was actually one of the more valid points plus don't we all love Yoda for his quirky behavior that no one can understand half the time?

SeanChing wrote: 1) Yoda contradicts himself by acting that way. At first, he acts all goofy and senile and seems as though he has completely lost his mind and is completely incoherent. "Ooh! My flashlight! *Hits R2*"
Then, shortly after, when he reveals his "true" self, he teaches Luke, "A Jedi Must have the most Serious of minds" (something like that). If a Jedi has to be so serious, then why was he acting like such a mindless derp?

2) Here another way Yoda contradicts himself. Luke asks, "is the dark side stronger" and Yoda quickly says "no no no! Quicker, Easier, more seductive".

If the dark side is "quicker", then why did Yoda reply with such a hasty response?

3) I think that one of the reasons why people hate the prequels and love the OT is that the prequels came second while the OT came first. The first movie (out of all movie series) usually gets all the credit, and the movie director can never get a same response for sequels.

1) Yoda hardly contradicts himself. He isn't crazy or weird, he's acting. He is putting on a show because he KNOWS it's Luke (he's a flipping grand master after all), and he wants to get a feel for Luke's persona before he reveals his identity. So he puts on an act, something to get Luke's guard down and avoid suspicion.

2) Of course Yoda responds hastily...look what happened to this kid's father! Yoda's naturally going to do his best to steer Luke clear of the Dark Side because he knows what that did to Luke's father. It was a natural "human" response.

3) A movie director can never get a same response for sequels? Honey, have you seen Empire Strikes Back? That sequel got more excitement out of the audience than A New Hope ever did. I know what you meant to say, but when it comes to Star Wars, it's one exception to the rule.

Sooo...interesting tpoic of debate. Hm.

Well, lemme rub everyone wrong (in a comical way) by stating a few things.

Firstly, I LOVED Epi I, II, III more than the originals. Sorry Folks. I got to see the Jedi Community before it got wiped out, I got to see Gen. Griveous, and let's not forget Hayden Christiansen (sp?) is pretty darn hawt. Which brings me into my second point...

Second: Ewan Mcgregor....hotness. There is NO way to get around the fact that the only reason I loved Obi-Wan on screen was because the actor who played him makes my heart flutter with teen girliness...Also, I think in Ep 1 when he showed emotions...oh man...I lost my brain temporarily because it's totally hot when hot guys cry. (I realize this makes me kinda shallow, but he's an actor so I don't think this counts)

Third: EPIC FIGHT SCENCE!!!!! Yoda v Dooku! (Need I say more? Or has your respect for Yoda grown just a little bit more?) I basically faint just thinking about that fight because of it's sheer awesome.

Fourth: Of the original SW Films (they were all good but I have pref's) Return of the Jedi was my favorite hands down. And I don't feel the need to justify that. Cause lemme tell ya, The Empire Strikes Back *yawn*


Don't get me wrong...I understand the story and messages and whathaveyou behind the entire film concept. For the genre and style and era difference, I don't think the writing was all that terrible. What was created was a masterpiece and I respect it as such. And even devling into the expanded universe which clarifies so much of the story from the films just makes me respect SW more. And the principles and lessons therein.

I am of the opinion that Shakk Ti is a rolemodel for all Female Jedi Masters. She is THE embodiment of grace, power, and IMO stunning Jedi beauty. If I could be 1/10th of the Jedi Master Shakk Ti was I would be honored!

So there's my 2 cents on the matter. Enjoy the scandal

Personally, I recon that the prequel Trilogy is hated because it doesn't uphold Star Wars as a mythology. And while explaining the Force (Seriously? What for?) is not pretty, those are still some damn fine movies.

Let's look at the biggest duel in the old Trilogy, in Episode V. It seems too stiff for martial arts masters, who can control the world with their mind, doesn't it? Now, the Duel of Fates in Episode I is a true jaw-dropper, with John Williams' ingenious score and few seconds when Qui-Gon meditates; it's a real masterpiece, you've got to admit that.

I’m not certain what everyone was expecting, but I liked the prequels.

I liked that we were introduced to the time before the Empire and that a lot of the back story was put on the big screen.

Granted, I am not a fan of Jarjar but that’s just one character. But, for me, this was an opportunity to see part of the story to my favorite Jedi… Obi Wan Kenobi. And I have to agree with Master War Beauty, Ewan Mcgregor did an awesome job of bringing Obi Wan to life and giving that “human” quality.

Then, who wouldn’t want to see Liam Neeson as Qui-Gon? Another one of my favorite actors!

Natalie Portman, we didn’t even know who she was before this… had to be something right.

I think that these movies were geared more toward younger audiences and did not have the same drama of the original three; but, they were good movies. Especially when you consider all the other stuff that has come out over the last several years.

I've got to go with the review videos hands down. So I'll put down my agreements, but I have my own to add as well.

The new Trilogy was fun in action and effects but

1. There was no real protagonist. I couldn't connect personally with anybody through the course of the movies. They were all too distant and de-centralized.

2. The plot course was scattered all over the place, there was no actual flow, partly because of the previous point (no main protagonist), so half the time I had no clue what was going on.

3. Yoda in the new trilogy was not convincing to me in the least bit. His voice annoyed me and wasn't the authentic sounding voice I know yoda to have. His voice acting and writing was very weak.

4. I have to agree with what Akkarin said and put it in my own words... The OT had a clear OVERALL moral set which was clear and strong because it was attached to the main protagonist. The new trilogy was all political, almost completely, so there was very little personal element present because of this, and therefore, there was only room for small little "one-liner morals" of "be patient" yada yada yada, and that's it.

5. The CGI was all fun and exciting but... because it was way too crisp and overly abused, it became very devalued to me. In the OT, in whatever space and even planet scenes we got to see, there was real texturing to the objects because they were real objects and because of the pace at which the effects took place, it allowed for the viewer to absorb the scene and the moment very well and really appreciate the effects that were taking place, and actually FEEL like you are there. I don't have hardly this feeling at all in any of the NT space scenes or most other effects scenes.

Of course I respect all opinions here that favor the new trilogy, they're fun, there's "hawt guys" in them, and the effects are shiny... but... those video reviews pretty much blew away all possible justification for their existence in their current form and I don't see anybody here giving a big enough counter-reason to prove otherwise. lol!

I know this post is fairly old now, but I found a video...

in response to Wescli Wardest's comments.


You were right - "Ewan Mcgregor did an AWESOME job of bringing Obi Wan to life", and he really tried his best to bring Alec (the original Obi Wan) back as well.

Here's proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ihqDETf324&feature=related

There just just be more links around here with Ewan McGregor in them..

Reliah wrote: There just just be more links around here with Ewan McGregor in them..

Well, this isn't Ewan McGregor, but it's got Han Solo in it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxLGFFo8Dn4

Bottom line: Star Wars is a 70s-80s movie series.

New Trilogy is a 90s-00s trilogy.

The movies were made for their audience. So, whichever audience you fall into, that's what you'll like more. If you favor the science fiction of the old days, you will probably enjoy the OT more. If you favor the action series movies that dominated the 90s and 00s, then you will probably like the NT more.

All in all, I think it has little to nothing to do with the supposed "philosophical" teachings. I think there were equal amounts in both series. Just of a different kind. To be honest, I've never used an example from the OT. I've never really thought twice about the teachings on Degobah. This was never conscious. But, I have used COUNTLESS Prequel examples. Because, I grew up in the nineties and two thousands. It's just were I was. I lived them as they came out. So, they spoke to me more.

Plus... I might be straight.. but... EWAN MCGREGOR. MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

Maybe it's been said already...Someone mentioned Qui-Gon and Grevious as being characters introduced in an episode and being killed in that episode...well, so was Obi-Wan in the Original Trilogy. I had to put that in there.

Reliah wrote: Movies have flaws for the same reasons Religions have flaws - people create flaws.
Personally, I love both. My top two are The Empire Strikes Back and Revenge of the Sith. I don't pay attention to things happening in the background, I try to understand what's being portrayed; feelings, emotions, stories, lessons, etc.

People think about things every way they shouldn't - far too often.

Reliah...THANK YOUUU!!! I'll admit, there is a bit of competition between IV and V for my top spot, but Revenge of the Sith is a definite 2nd/3rd placer, and by far the best one of the new trilogy! I feel like Anakin and Obi-Wan developed their characters considerably from II to III. Now don't get me wrong, Revenge is not perfect, but it is one of the greats. The only thing that could have made it more epic is if Liam Neison hadn't gotten into a wreck and was able to appear as Qui-Gon, as he had planned on doing.

To be honest, I liked the prequel movies as well. A lot. The stories were good, the action was fun and the acting wasn't shabby either. Well, occasionally there were glitches, but one can't expect perfection.

Jar Jar Binks was - for me - a comic relief who, though not really required in the movie, set a lighter tone to the scenes he was in. Which is no bad thing! It wasn't until everyone started whining about it that I thought, yeah, I guess he can be viewed in a negative, slightly irritating light. But he's the embodiment of good ole' fashioned slapstick comedy!

There is also the effect the prequels had on gaming. I love games, though having no console of my own makes it difficult to play. Without the prequels, there would be no Old Republic, no Battlefront, no upcoming 1313. One that will always stay with me is the Playstation One game Jedi Power Battles - not only was it addictive, but every time I played it I wanted to watch Episode One again.

RiddleNox wrote:
Plus... I might be straight.. but... EWAN MCGREGOR. MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

...WOAH....