Atheism: Belief or not a belief?

rugadd wrote: Let's start by defining the term as found in a common dictionary.

atheism (noun)
1. the doctrine or BELIEF that there is no God.
2. disBELIEF in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

What I find interesting about these two definitions of the same thing is that one seems to support one side of the argument and the other supports the other side. Definition 1 states that it is a belief in the absence of a god and definition 2 states that it is the absence of a belief in a god.

That begs the question, does whether it's a belief or not actually matter or is it simply semantic?

Purely semantic. People believe what they believe, whether they call it a belief or not.

MartaLina wrote: No

In my opinion atheism is not a belief. For the majority of atheists , atheism is not the assumption that there is no God. Atheism is not an article of faith, adhered to regardless of what evidence does or does not support it. Atheism is not a certainty that there is no God. For most atheists I know, it is a provisional conclusion, based on careful reasoning and on the best available evidence they have. Atheism is the conclusion (belief? faith? lol) that the God hypothesis is unsupported by any good evidence, and that unless they see better evidence, they assume that God does not exist.

I like rugadd's system, and have used it before as well...

Here is a good one, shoot, substitute "JEdi" and its pretty damn close, lololol.... ;P...:

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism

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Goken wrote:

Edan wrote: What about those like me who think god is unlikely, and also don't care about whether there is?

I think that's called Agnostic. I could be wrong though.

Nope. Still Atheism. Unless the person expresses that they "don't know," which is the literal definition (roughly) of Agnosticism (Not Known/No knowledge -> A-gnostic).

Snowy Aftermath wrote: I did not ask for and do not want this thread, Goken. I don't come to TotJO to tell other people who they are. I didn't show up here to tell this guy how to be a Christian or that guy how to be a Pagan. It doesn't matter what Cable or anyone else says on the matter, they aren't living it and certainly express no real interest in learning about it, they just want to dictate to me who I am. To show up and INSIST that something that they aren't living or experiencing is a certain way is nothing but arrogance. How would they know?

So everybody have fun arguing about something you aren't even interested in learning more about. Have fun making assumptions about other people and dropping generalizations. Have fun being part of the group that trusts rapists more than atheists . What do I care?

I have to deal with this ignorant BS in the real world, I'm not going to stand alone in yet another thread. You all claim to be open-minded. Use your mind. Go google it and study it in actual places where we roll.

I will not be run out of here like you all did to Mahogany.

Ok. Whether or not you asked for or wanted this thread I did. I started it because I wanted to have it as made apparent by my continued participation in it. I did not intend for this thread to be about telling people how to be atheist, simply to discuss the different theories of it. That's what we do here, we discuss theories. Notice that a lot of the people posting here seem to side with the idea that it is not a belief where as I started on the other side. We're all here to learn.

I'm not even going to touch on the link.

Also, no one wants you run out like Mahogany. I didn't even want her run out, but that is a different discussion.

Luthien, can you expound?

Snowy Aftermath wrote: I did not ask for and do not want this thread, Goken. I don't come to TotJO to tell other people who they are. I didn't show up here to tell this guy how to be a Christian or that guy how to be a Pagan. It doesn't matter what Cable or anyone else says on the matter, they aren't living it and certainly express no real interest in learning about it, they just want to dictate to me who I am. To show up and INSIST that something that they aren't living or experiencing is a certain way is nothing but arrogance. How would they know?

So everybody have fun arguing about something you aren't even interested in learning more about. Have fun making assumptions about other people and dropping generalizations. Have fun being part of the group that trusts rapists more than atheists . What do I care?

I have to deal with this ignorant BS in the real world, I'm not going to stand alone in yet another thread. You all claim to be open-minded. Use your mind. Go google it and study it in actual places where we roll.

I will not be run out of here like you all did to Mahogany.

I'm assuming here, but I think that the thread is not to discuss if atheism is valid or not, but whether it can be called a "belief" or not, seeing as strictly speaking, it means an absence of belief in God.

I personally think it's irrelevant, because everyone has beliefs, whether they have a name for the dogma, or a deity, or prophet, etc.

Either way, I don't think it's meant to be a dig at atheists.

Jestor wrote:

MartaLina wrote: No

In my opinion atheism is not a belief. For the majority of atheists , atheism is not the assumption that there is no God. Atheism is not an article of faith, adhered to regardless of what evidence does or does not support it. Atheism is not a certainty that there is no God. For most atheists I know, it is a provisional conclusion, based on careful reasoning and on the best available evidence they have. Atheism is the conclusion (belief? faith? lol) that the God hypothesis is unsupported by any good evidence, and that unless they see better evidence, they assume that God does not exist.

I like rugadd's system, and have used it before as well...

Here is a good one, shoot, substitute "JEdi" and its pretty damn close, lololol.... ;P...:

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism

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I get what you are saying but if someone askes MY opinion i give MY opinion , there is no right or wrong , i am not saying that Atheist are this or that , i stated my opinion , my thoughts , and tomorrow i might think differently ..if people dont want to know what i think they should ask , "Tell me what Atheist are " and not "What do you think " :whistle:

Let's see. Hypothetically, if a person has never heard of god or anything related, what would you classify them as? Non-theist, atheist, non-believer? They don't necessarily "believe" that there is no god, just lack the belief because there is nothing to not believe in. I would probably classify it as agnosticism, but also atheism.

I hate to say it, Goken but it was bad form to put that out in public.

Miss_Leah wrote:

Snowy Aftermath wrote: I did not ask for and do not want this thread, Goken. I don't come to TotJO to tell other people who they are. I didn't show up here to tell this guy how to be a Christian or that guy how to be a Pagan. It doesn't matter what Cable or anyone else says on the matter, they aren't living it and certainly express no real interest in learning about it, they just want to dictate to me who I am. To show up and INSIST that something that they aren't living or experiencing is a certain way is nothing but arrogance. How would they know?

So everybody have fun arguing about something you aren't even interested in learning more about. Have fun making assumptions about other people and dropping generalizations. Have fun being part of the group that trusts rapists more than atheists . What do I care?

I have to deal with this ignorant BS in the real world, I'm not going to stand alone in yet another thread. You all claim to be open-minded. Use your mind. Go google it and study it in actual places where we roll.

I will not be run out of here like you all did to Mahogany.

I'm assuming here, but I think that the thread is not to discuss if atheism is valid or not, but whether it can be called a "belief" or not, seeing as strictly speaking, it means an absence of belief in God.

I personally think it's irrelevant, because everyone has beliefs, whether they have a name for the dogma, or a deity, or prophet, etc.

Either way, I don't think it's meant to be a dig at atheists.

I ll take it a step further even , the question is , Belief or not a belief , then the question is : is it or not , what do YOU think ...so no judgement , no telling what they should be or not be , or belief even , ...and your answer is ..its irrelevant :lol: and thats fine too

lol, I'm curious as to what an atheist doctrine would look like. Perhaps a book on the scientific method?

EDIT: SOrry! This thing took off and I though you posted a PM Goken. My apologies!

Luthien wrote: Let's see. Hypothetically, if a person has never heard of god or anything related, what would you classify them as? Non-theist, atheist, non-believer? They don't necessarily "believe" that there is no god, just lack the belief because there is nothing to not believe in. I would probably classify it as agnosticism, but also atheism.

I would call them extremely lucky

Miss_Leah wrote: I'm assuming here, but I think that the thread is not to discuss if atheism is valid or not, but whether it can be called a "belief" or not, seeing as strictly speaking, it means an absence of belief in God.

I personally think it's irrelevant, because everyone has beliefs, whether they have a name for the dogma, or a deity, or prophet, etc.

Either way, I don't think it's meant to be a dig at atheists.

Christians say that atheism is a "belief" or "religion" all of the time to discredit us and claim that there are no real atheists. I can not understand why supposedly intelligent human beings cannot wrap their minds around this one and ONLY simple identifying feature.

Atheism is a belief as much as bald is a hair color.

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

Miss_Leah wrote: I'm assuming here, but I think that the thread is not to discuss if atheism is valid or not, but whether it can be called a "belief" or not, seeing as strictly speaking, it means an absence of belief in God.

I personally think it's irrelevant, because everyone has beliefs, whether they have a name for the dogma, or a deity, or prophet, etc.

Either way, I don't think it's meant to be a dig at atheists.

Christians say that atheism is a "belief" or "religion" all of the time to discredit us and claim that there are no real atheists. I can not understand why supposedly intelligent human beings cannot wrap their minds around this one simple identifying feature.

Atheism is a belief as much as bald is a hair color.

Exactly. Just like off is a channel on tv (like I said before).

Snowy Aftermath wrote: Christians say that atheism is a "belief" or "religion" all of the time to discredit us and claim that there are no real atheists. I can not understand why supposedly intelligent human beings cannot wrap their minds around this one and ONLY simple identifying feature.

Atheism is a belief as much as bald is a hair color.

Nobody is here to discredit anybody, only to try to explore something they may not have a full understanding of. Isn't that why we're all here?

Lets try defining "belief"

Belief (noun)

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction:
a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:
a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust:
a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith:
the Christian belief.

Okay...belief doesn't apply to atheism unless we assume it does from the get go, which is fallacious.

Alright, if we can accept that, why then, would people call atheism a belief? Perhaps because their own perspective is seen through that lens? Their "wired" to see it as one?

Luthien wrote:

Goken wrote:

Edan wrote: What about those like me who think god is unlikely, and also don't care about whether there is?

I think that's called Agnostic. I could be wrong though.

Nope. Still Atheism. Unless the person expresses that they "don't know," which is the literal definition (roughly) of Agnosticism (Not Known/No knowledge -> A-gnostic).

Thanks. I just remembered that my father once explained it to me like this:

There's a curtain that's closed. A Christian says that God is on the other side. An Atheist says that there's nothing on the other side. An Agnostic says "How should I know? It's closed." :laugh: