——Church——

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13 Jun 2019 14:39 - 13 Jun 2019 14:47 #339675 by Carlos.Martinez3
With 7 BILLION people - we have 7 BILLION different ideas of what “church” should be and means. As Pastor, I’d love to hear what your definition is of the church idea. What type of church do you want the Temple to be? What type of services, subjects - ways - ideas -flows - what do you have in mind ? What encourages you? Think we can accommodate every one? Let’s put this to the masses. I really want to hear what ya think and how you feel about this. So - you have my heart and I’m all ears - lemme have it !

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Last edit: 13 Jun 2019 14:47 by Carlos.Martinez3.
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13 Jun 2019 15:02 #339676 by Kelrax Lorcken
Replied by Kelrax Lorcken on topic ——Church——
Hmmm... Well, I think of this place more as "Temple" than "church", but in this context, I suppose that's just semantics. ^_^U

I do find my image of a church is one where there is a gathering of people of like minds (on spiritual matters, specifically), and to that end, this Temple fulfills that, and is, for the most part, rather accommodating, current events not withstanding.

Perhaps the handling of grievances could stand to be done more discreetly, and maybe a gentler touch, combined with direct, less authoritarian discouragement would do well towards encouraging this method of conflict resolution within the community?

If there were a way to encourage greater participation, it might also increase engagement, but I don't have ideas on how to implement/accomplish this.

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0
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13 Jun 2019 15:25 #339678 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic ——Church——
Since day one I’ve used the word Temple. In a forum setting - grievances are public. I’ve heard more a request of more dialogue than debate. A balance of both is healthy I think . Right ? I think it can begin with us- here. Now and us are always a good start. Conflict resolution hu... what ya got in mind? My idea is see the need fill the need type of thing. In the past I e even heard clergy wasn’t accessible- now in my own ministry here - I’ve wiped that out completely - I personally can be reach here there and everywhere lol. Except fb. My own personal choice . So - thanks KL ! Keep me coming - who know - with post like this - we might get on the same page by ... knowing what we all want. Ya know , listening - workin together rather than just griping - actually doing something.

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13 Jun 2019 17:08 #339683 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic ——Church——

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Since day one I’ve used the word Temple. In a forum setting - grievances are public. I’ve heard more a request of more dialogue than debate. A balance of both is healthy I think . Right ? I think it can begin with us- here. Now and us are always a good start. Conflict resolution hu... what ya got in mind? My idea is see the need fill the need type of thing. In the past I e even heard clergy wasn’t accessible- now in my own ministry here - I’ve wiped that out completely - I personally can be reach here there and everywhere lol. Except fb. My own personal choice . So - thanks KL ! Keep me coming - who know - with post like this - we might get on the same page by ... knowing what we all want. Ya know , listening - workin together rather than just griping - actually doing something.


well for starters, I don't think we should make casual uses of either terms. We have the opportunity to look back in hindsight at every religion/denomination. We can therefore research them and learn from their mistakes. People come here to get away from that mess. And when people see the same sort of backbiting, gossip, and power grabs, they thought they left behind it can be depressing if not for the ability to simply "log off".

The thing I hear all the time is corruption. Whether it is deserved or not, the perception is there... on the table. That's what you have to deal with. That is always the true threat. We can scapegoat individual members all day but Kyrin's not the one making people quit their positions and no, I don't want people to simply leave or get escorted out quietly when the real reasons they're leaving remain. Like cancer, it remains. And it seems hypocritical to take a scalpel to a blister on the skin when there is an infected organ inside.

Everyone else seems expendable. Again... I'm talking about perception and a the idea that a fish rots from the head. And like in politics, the best most progressive changes can hardly happen unless the money in politics is addressed. So the starting point is to address the perception of corruption. I've got ideas just like I'm sure others have ideas, but we have to deal with the 2x4 in our own eye before we look at the mote in others. I'm fine with everyone doing nothing, believe it or not, as long as that nothing is applied evenly and indiscriminately. As soon as that nothing becomes something and we start using power and authority to apply to one person in a way that cannot apply to someone else or makes this someone else "above the law" that's when I have a problem and must consider my own participation in such an enterprise. Because right now I'm all in. But I can't be all into a corrupt system that makes no attempt to fix itself. If you fix this one issue then people will gladly come. At this point people don't even want to serve in higher offices because they don't want to run afoul of people who don't have term limits. And without the ability to remove, the leadership doesn't have to meet any external expectations but demand even unreasonable expectations from those who can be removed from office. And even if we're afraid to talk about this elephant in the room, there's still not a whole lot of space in that room because there's an elephant in there we're all kind of pretending not to see. But when other people are forced out, either of position or of the site entirely, if unwarranted, then it is extremely difficult not to see that elephant.
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13 Jun 2019 18:00 - 13 Jun 2019 18:12 #339685 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic ——Church——
A church is a place of communion between those who share similar religious beliefs. In intent, it deals with spiritual and moral support between its members and can also influence that same support even to those outside it who are in practical need.

A temple is a place of spiritual observance, meditation, and prayer. It is where those of similar spiritual dispositions go in order to contemplate/connect in some form with a spiritual idea larger than their individual.

I believe TOTJO follows both of these definitions as a place to commune online to observe the Force and support each other as Jedi / humans in growth.

This temple is also a place for philosophical discussion. Debating is rightfully allowed. Questioning beliefs is (should be) too. However, it is not so simple as that. Because people who are here at a church are most likely here for reason that makes them understandably sensitive to different kinds of reception. They (We) carry with them (us) burdens of their (our) own delusions and social conditioning, many of which don't know they are even carrying let alone know how to shed.

The purpose of the members here, I do not believe should be to jump on the backs of anyone who walks in with silly ideas and hammering at them. Being a church, it is more important to help them into the temple, to feel welcome, to show understanding of where their beliefs are at, and if they know they are encumbered with delusions, to help them lift it off themselves gently. If they do not know, it's important to understand that the longer they stick around to see what others are up to here and where they are at, they will catch on about things and come around with the support of the church and its members. Interrogation will, on average, be more likely to drive them away, in a much more abrupt and rude way than what happened to the person of topic lately who has already been observed doing this.

Beyond this, Totjo, to me, is like a rorschach blotch. What do you see when you look at it? How does it make you feel? Whatever the answer is, is for each of us to contemplate and resolve about ourselves first and foremost if it's not what one is happy with. The support of members, even particularly the Clergy are here to help you with this if you so choose. However, politically, It is not the responsibility of the council. A church is not a fast food joint and the customer is not always right I'm afraid. Even if it may be that the politics may not exactly be either. The pendulum will naturally swing, and you could give it a push... but push too hard and it might swing too far once it does gain momentum. So do be careful with it.

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
Last edit: 13 Jun 2019 18:12 by Proteus.
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13 Jun 2019 18:20 - 13 Jun 2019 18:21 #339688 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic ——Church——
One - thank you Z for your response.

I can only ever speak for me. If you haven’t noticed by now, I’m pretty much a straight shooter. It is always my goal to build. I’ll never lie. I will rarely use hypothetical situations. If there is ever an elephant in the room, I’ll always try to address it. I can honestly say, as Pastor, if there ever comes a time that I am not serving, if there are concerns, if I have offended, if anything is out of tilt...come at me Bro! You are welcome to address me directly, at any time, privately or on the forum. Because I will directly address you, at any time. I’m an open book, you read? For anything else, I want to help. The most important thing I want to help with, is your freedom. On said subject, if at any time, you feel that there is more harm than help coming from anyone, you have the right to speak up! This is what has happened in the past, addressing your concern. It has been done here most recently, understand it also took two and a half years for some situations to come to an end. So use your freedoms and use them wisely. And if you ever need me, I am always available.
I look forward to the day, no matter how long it takes in my ministry , to bring the Temple back, Or at least have more people using it as a place of growth and learning again. I’m not at all saying that it’s not, please don’t get me wrong, because it is. There are right now, countless people right now, as we speak, learning right now. There are countless ideas being spoken right now, there are countless ideas being shared and changed right now...as we speak. Sadly, it usually ( I’ll use a term I hope can be familiar with some ) it’s usually the prodigal son that gets all the attention - rarely the faithful one. [see the prodigal son parable] Attention is way to often on things we wouldn’t like some times but some things do need to be addressed. Here - the term church and temple have a great meaning to me and to more than a few here as well. So maybe - that elephant isn’t as big a problem as we think it is ? No Jeddist is alone here - not on my watch lol. If we are here to grow - let’s do that. How do we apply these ideas we have ? How do we get away from what is essentially - the problem with people? Regardless of where we go - you will find people. Having people means having people problems. Do we as Jeddist have or can have a better way to do things ? Can we try ? See a problem - see a need ... fill a need ? How do you recommend we do things better ? Maybe it can start with you and me?

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The Block
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Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
Last edit: 13 Jun 2019 18:21 by Carlos.Martinez3.
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13 Jun 2019 18:29 #339691 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic ——Church——

Proteus wrote: A church is a place of communion between those who share similar religious beliefs. In intent, it deals with spiritual and moral support between its members and can also influence that same support even to those outside it who are in practical need.

A temple is a place of spiritual observance, meditation, and prayer. It is where those of similar spiritual dispositions go in order to contemplate/connect in some form with a spiritual idea larger than their individual.

I believe TOTJO follows both of these definitions as a place to commune online to observe the Force and support each other as Jedi / humans in growth.

This temple is also a place for philosophical discussion. Debating is rightfully allowed. Questioning beliefs is (should be) too. However, it is not so simple as that. Because people who are here at a church are most likely here for reason that makes them understandably sensitive to different kinds of reception. They (We) carry with them (us) burdens of their (our) own delusions and social conditioning, many of which don't know they are even carrying let alone know how to shed.

The purpose of the members here, I do not believe should be to jump on the backs of anyone who walks in with silly ideas and hammering at them. Being a church, it is more important to help them into the temple, to feel welcome, to show understanding of where their beliefs are at, and if they know they are encumbered with delusions, to help them lift it off themselves gently. If they do not know, it's important to understand that the longer they stick around to see what others are up to here and where they are at, they will catch on about things and come around with the support of the church and its members. Interrogation will, on average, be more likely to drive them away, in a much more abrupt and rude way than what happened to the person of topic lately who has already been observed doing this.

Beyond this, Totjo, to me, is like a rorschach blotch. What do you see when you look at it? How does it make you feel? Whatever the answer is, is for each of us to contemplate and resolve about ourselves first and foremost if it's not what one is happy with. The support of members, even particularly the Clergy are here to help you with this if you so choose. However, politically, It is not the responsibility of the council. A church is not a fast food joint and the customer is not always right I'm afraid. Even if it may be that the politics may not exactly be either. The pendulum will naturally swing, and you could give it a push... but push too hard and it might swing too far once it does gain momentum. So do be careful with it.


Oh Proteus, maker of his own blots, first of his name, prince of the Knights, and Ruler of the SIX kingdoms...titles, titles, titles...
I’m really glad to see you back, I’m really glad you share the way you do. I would much rather see people interact with each other; than the dissing. More congregation than confrontation. I hope we can keep it up, and I hope this can begin with you and I [smileyface].

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13 Jun 2019 20:16 - 13 Jun 2019 20:18 #339696 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic ——Church——

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: One - thank you Z for your response.

I can only ever speak for me. If you haven’t noticed by now, I’m pretty much a straight shooter. It is always my goal to build. I’ll never lie. I will rarely use hypothetical situations. If there is ever an elephant in the room, I’ll always try to address it. I can honestly say, as Pastor, if there ever comes a time that I am not serving, if there are concerns, if I have offended, if anything is out of tilt...come at me Bro! You are welcome to address me directly, at any time, privately or on the forum. Because I will directly address you, at any time. I’m an open book, you read? For anything else, I want to help. The most important thing I want to help with, is your freedom. On said subject, if at any time, you feel that there is more harm than help coming from anyone, you have the right to speak up! This is what has happened in the past, addressing your concern. It has been done here most recently, understand it also took two and a half years for some situations to come to an end. So use your freedoms and use them wisely. And if you ever need me, I am always available.
I look forward to the day, no matter how long it takes in my ministry , to bring the Temple back, Or at least have more people using it as a place of growth and learning again. I’m not at all saying that it’s not, please don’t get me wrong, because it is. There are right now, countless people right now, as we speak, learning right now. There are countless ideas being spoken right now, there are countless ideas being shared and changed right now...as we speak. Sadly, it usually ( I’ll use a term I hope can be familiar with some ) it’s usually the prodigal son that gets all the attention - rarely the faithful one. [see the prodigal son parable] Attention is way to often on things we wouldn’t like some times but some things do need to be addressed. Here - the term church and temple have a great meaning to me and to more than a few here as well. So maybe - that elephant isn’t as big a problem as we think it is ? No Jeddist is alone here - not on my watch lol. If we are here to grow - let’s do that. How do we apply these ideas we have ? How do we get away from what is essentially - the problem with people? Regardless of where we go - you will find people. Having people means having people problems. Do we as Jeddist have or can have a better way to do things ? Can we try ? See a problem - see a need ... fill a need ? How do you recommend we do things better ? Maybe it can start with you and me?


Without putting too fine a point on it, Carlos, I have every reason to believe you are a straight shooter and someone working in the best interest of everyone. I can see that because you actively participate. You interact. You are not someone who lives on mount Olympus who occasionally comes down on trysts with mere mortals. I believe what you've said about yourself is accurate and if every title holder was like you we would be faint from so much winning. Carlos, you are a rock. You are solid and dependable. You are among the people and therefore have the trust and support of the people. Real power shouldn't be up in the clouds somewhere but right here among the people it exists to serve. I don't have a negative word I could say about you and that speaks highly of who you are and how you conduct yourself. You are a great example. If there is a perception of corruption I don't think it is because of you.
Last edit: 13 Jun 2019 20:18 by ZealotX.
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13 Jun 2019 21:31 #339698 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic ——Church——

Proteus wrote: A church is a place of communion between those who share similar religious beliefs. In intent, it deals with spiritual and moral support between its members and can also influence that same support even to those outside it who are in practical need.

A temple is a place of spiritual observance, meditation, and prayer. It is where those of similar spiritual dispositions go in order to contemplate/connect in some form with a spiritual idea larger than their individual.

I believe TOTJO follows both of these definitions as a place to commune online to observe the Force and support each other as Jedi / humans in growth.

This temple is also a place for philosophical discussion. Debating is rightfully allowed. Questioning beliefs is (should be) too. However, it is not so simple as that. Because people who are here at a church are most likely here for reason that makes them understandably sensitive to different kinds of reception. They (We) carry with them (us) burdens of their (our) own delusions and social conditioning, many of which don't know they are even carrying let alone know how to shed.

The purpose of the members here, I do not believe should be to jump on the backs of anyone who walks in with silly ideas and hammering at them. Being a church, it is more important to help them into the temple, to feel welcome, to show understanding of where their beliefs are at, and if they know they are encumbered with delusions, to help them lift it off themselves gently. If they do not know, it's important to understand that the longer they stick around to see what others are up to here and where they are at, they will catch on about things and come around with the support of the church and its members. Interrogation will, on average, be more likely to drive them away, in a much more abrupt and rude way than what happened to the person of topic lately who has already been observed doing this.

Beyond this, Totjo, to me, is like a rorschach blotch. What do you see when you look at it? How does it make you feel? Whatever the answer is, is for each of us to contemplate and resolve about ourselves first and foremost if it's not what one is happy with. The support of members, even particularly the Clergy are here to help you with this if you so choose. However, politically, It is not the responsibility of the council. A church is not a fast food joint and the customer is not always right I'm afraid. Even if it may be that the politics may not exactly be either. The pendulum will naturally swing, and you could give it a push... but push too hard and it might swing too far once it does gain momentum. So do be careful with it.


Very well spoken, Proteus, as usual.

There are different aspects of any religion. The church tends to be the "congregation" while the temple is a building in which a congregation meets. But there is also the business and administration of the congregation conducted by chosen members. In all of our actions we have to be caution of extremes. I fundamentally disagree with the Inquisition however I recognize the right of the church to protect its message and identity from being usurped.

If I may use Christianity to make a point, look what happened with LDS? Mormons have such a large and influential population that they can run their own presidents. I'm not saying that's a bad thing but from the perspective of Christianity it is a sect that never should have existed based almost solely on lies from a con artist who said Jesus came to America.

And now it is a system of good and evil where people are supported and all the rainbows and unicorns hug fairies and its all beautiful and at the same time children are abused, married to preachers as second or third wives and it essentially operates as a massive cult.

What about the prosperity cults? What about the pastors/bible pimps with golden toilets and those who complain about having only one private jet? Can anyone argue that this isn't corruption on a massive scale? And yet, surely they're making people feel better so it's all good, right? On the flip side there's the Amish who live like they are stuck in the 1800s. While many mean perfectly well I cannot imagine how so many children stay in it without being either brainwashed to a large degree or forced in order to avoid getting cut off by family. Let's just have a big tent so everyone can come in.

All of these things and more started as bad ideas and were allowed by good people. People supported those bad ideas and underestimated them. Many of these ideas seem good from one perspective while there are hidden parts that can cause serious emotional and psychological damage. What was also missed, imo, was the power that invariably comes with being the investor or catalyst for a new idea such as these. That person becomes a gatekeeper of knowledge and thus power. The more people follow their idea the more people follow them. And absolutely, all these people are not nefarious. But their ideas, like seeds, are looking for fertile ground. There is a way to protect new people while still protecting the community (including the new people who might be impressionable) from bad ideas.
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13 Jun 2019 21:31 #339699 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic ——Church——
By the time Jesus appeared on the scene real bad ideas had already become accepted into mainstream Judaism. And the damage was great because, according to him, they weren't allowing people to get into heaven and they weren't even going in themselves. So translation: their lust for power and authority and letter of the law thinking was moving people away from spirituality and enlightenment and causing people to be lost. Jesus's whole mission was an effort to reform Judaism back to its more spiritual roots. And they killed him for it.

No, Kyrin isn't Jesus. But we sometimes forget that Jesus was hostile towards those who were corrupt and holding on to their own bad ideas. Jesus even called them names. But we often see only the "nice guy" side of him and imagine that any revolution or any reformation effort must be full of flower petals and bear hugs. Jesus said be wise as serpents but harmless as doves. He also said he came to bring emnity between family members. He had no illusions that not everyone was going to accept his gospel.

So the point is, while I understand the desire to be more welcoming and appealing and perhaps deal with people's issues later, it's not that simple. It's never that simple. And in reality I think you need both. You need the "watchmen on the walls"... as well as the Walmart greeters that catch people as they come in the door, not knowing why they came. I certainly didn't always agree with Kyrin's methodology but Kyrin gave no slack. If you got an idea through Kyrin it was because it was a good idea. If you took your ball and went home it's mostly because you were emotionally tied to that idea and therefore felt rebuffed as your idea was rebuffed. Kyrin was a watchman on the walls.
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