Should 'justice' treat children like adults?

I read about this the other day, and frankly it disgusts me.

Ignoring the fact that the boy didn't actually kill anyone, should we really be treating children in the justice system as adults?

Putting a child away in prison for 55 years means there will never be a chance for them to redeem themselves or live a better life. It is possible he could die in prison.

Should we treating children like adults in 'justice'?

Based on what some totjo americans have said in the past, I think it'd be best if no-one ever got treated in any way by "justice" over there.

It is my opinion however that these "children" are no more deserving of a good life than a 30 year old burglar. This isn't exactly one of those cases where we have toddlers shooting their own parents dead. They knew what they were doing, they knew the risks (it's not like shootings are rare in america), and all should be equal before the law, even when the law is stupid.


I wonder how many in that "jury of their peers" will be underage ?

This is disgusting, but in my opinion it's from the angle of being guilty of murder without actually killing anyone.

A number of the people involved were adults anyway and the 16 year old seems competent enough to be tried as an adult (children in UK law are generally treated like adults in other areas of the law)

I agree with ren in that they deserve to have a punishment, but this is completely disproportionate to the actual crime he committed. This would not happen in the UK and for once I appreciate our laws

I am surprised that he was found guilty given the wording of that law though. Just stupidity!

"Children" and "Kid" .... This boy and I'm sure his friends is 16 years old in this article. By far no Child or kid, but a young adult very much aware of the Moral Rightness and Consequences of actions.

....facing the prospect of spending most of the rest of his life in a prison cell for a murder that he did not commit

But he was there. He took part in it. He had the ability and choice to alert authorities against his friends actions. He had ability and choice to not attend the act. He had just as much choice and freedom to that choice as any other adult young or old would have. Just because he he didn't pull the trigger, dosn't mean he is free of crime. He aided in the breaking of laws and lost.

Now it is time to serve the consequences and responsibility of he choices.

Law. Is never good. Is never Fair. Such is the nature of things that are set in stone and made un-movable.

A lifetime in prison? No perhaps not. 1. It's a waist of tax money....Mine and yours. 2. He wont learn anything from it 3. It does not match with his crimes 4. The law system is lazy and incompetent, uncaring of the education of young people, only the pickings of ripe and rotten apples.

In the end. My answer is that...at age 16 years old...he is no longer saved by the "Just a kid" card.

i am an american firstly...and that is a stupid law...he should be charged with burglary, breaking and entering...nothing more...the homeowner (who was defending himself) was the one that killed...(again no charge should be made against the homeowner as it was his home)...

children are much smarter than adults give them credit for, and are frequently underestimated...at 6 years old my nephew understood right from wrong thoroughly...so yes if a child commits an adult crime, they should face the same consequences. murder is murder whether committed by a 6 year old or a 60 year old...

mental evaluations should be used to determine competency of course...

in the navy the best piece of advice we got in bootcamp was "where ever you go, always learn and understand the laws"

I can see what they were trying to accomplish in writing that law. Those laws are written so that the person(s) committing the felony are charged with the death because ultimately it's their fault it happened. Had they not broken in then that other man wouldn't be dead now. That said, sending that man away for murder is stupid. Burglary most definitely, even he admits that, but not murder.

Maybe some sort of 'felony manslaughter' charge should be created. Like I said, it is their fault it happened but they didn't intend for that to happen. I feel like that's a better fit.

As far as treating him like an adult goes, do it. I feel like not trying people as adults gives teenagers this sense of "well I won't get in that much trouble because I'm not an adult yet." That feeling needs to be stopped, their actions have just as many consequences as those of adults. Like Ryujin said, kids are smart. They know things are wrong, they just don't care sometimes.

While "the punishment doenst always fit the crime", I agree with the charges... Maybe not his punishment... Let him plea to "accomplice", or something....

Adding my thoughts to the previous two posts...

Wanna act like an adult? Accept responsibility as one... They went in as a group... What if they found him (the shooter) sleeping? Would they have beat him up? Killed him? Raped him? How do we know? They were responsible for each other, and him more than others as he invited others... Safety in numbers if caught? They could overpower the homeowner? They instigated, and took their life in their hands...

One hour before that, if you would have ask the kid if he would break into the house, he might have said "maybe"... Two days before, he mighta said, "I dunno, why?"... A year before that, "No, of course not, I got a job"... And 5 years before that, he might have said, "NO WAY!!", cause what 11 year old thinks stealing is a good idea (there are some, sure, but not most I would hope)...

For this to have a wider impact, and become more than a waste of resources, make his story told... Dont let this go to waste...

100 years ago, he would have been an adult... He would have had a job, and been out of school...

50 years ago, the 'legal age' was made 18... http://www.answers.com/Q/When_did_18_become_the_legal_age_in_the_US

This poor kid is the one, (as well as others everywhere, I know this) who are serving as the example... And showing that at some point, the 'just a kid' card stops...

I have a 40 year old sister, still living at home with my mom... Few bills, few responsibilities, she shoves more than she should off on my mom... Is she an adult? Why? She lives at home, and has little responsibility... She doesnt clean up after her own dogs most of the time, and can seldom be bothered to help around the house... My 15 year old does more to help us, than my 40+ year old sister does to help my mom... Seems that way, lol...

We have created a society that is keeping children as children for longer and longer times... Becasue we are scared for them, becasue they dont know what is going to happen to them, they dont know what they are doing... Or, they are just too scared/lazy to be on their own...

16 isnt old enough to be responsible? probably should not issue them drivers licenses then, WAYY more dangerous...

Is an 18 year old responsible? Why? did 18 'click a switch'? I guess they can vote and join the army, right?

How about 21? Cannot drive a semi, drink alcohol, or own a gun until that age, is that old enough?

How about 35? cant be the President until 35, is that worldly enough?

These numbers are as arbitrary as anything written... The minute you 'write it down' it begins to become old, and outdated...

It all breaks down to the individual case... Defending these lines is stupid on a case by case basis...

If any of you think that the law is always right, let me know... We can discuss that in another thread... lol...

Just my thoughts, lol... And I have been wrong before, lol...

What if they found him (the shooter) sleeping? Would they have beat him up? Killed him? Raped him? How do we know? They were responsible for each other, and him more than others as he invited others... Safety in numbers if caught? They could overpower the homeowner? They instigated, and took their life in their hands

You can't punish an if though.

We have created a society that is keeping children as children for longer

Honestly, I feel like the opposite is the true. We force adult expectations on children from younger and younger an age... blame media, society, schools, whatever.

most laws are a matter of profit for the state...otherwise there wouldn't be so many of them with financial punishments...the jails get paid based on population...and privatized jails...even worse...the more things that are illegal the higher the profitability of the court and jail systems...

in "minority report" people were charged with crimes they didn't commit, but were going to...punishment for something you didn't do...thinking about doing something wrong is not the same as actually doing something wrong...thoughts should not be punished actions should be...

had the kid and/or his friends caused harm to the homeowner, then they should be charged accordingly...in this case though they only brought harm upon themselves...

it's kind of like the burglar that sues the homeowner because the homeowner's dog mauled the burglar...

Edan wrote:

We have created a society that is keeping children as children for longer

Honestly, I feel like the opposite is the true. We force adult expectations on children from younger and younger an age... blame media, society, schools, whatever.

i think both aspects are correct...to a point...

a few hundred years ago 12-14 was marrying and child bearing age(in some cases still is)...things typically viewed as "adult"...back then 14-16 year old boys were sent off to the battlefields...

each person is different, some mature sooner than others and are ready for adult treatment some are not

when i was 16 my friends were the kids who did drugs, stole cars and broke in to houses

by extension, i did drugs, stole cars and broke into houses

i can give you all kinds of statistics and numbers and evidence of why we were mostly normal kids who lived in what most of you would call unusual circumstances

my friend john lived with his aunt, who pretty much lived at the bar
he was with her because his dad was in prison and his mother was dead from a car wreck that i think he was in

randy's dad was alive but he was addicted to crack cocaine
i dont know about his mother - i think she was just gone

for my part, i was at school (3rd grade) when the police took my step dad to prison for a sexual assault he commited on someone else in my family

years later (almost 15) i basically watched my biological father die when hospice gave him the morphine shot to release him from the pain of cancer

my and my friends were what you would call BAD KIDS

but im telling you that we were mostly good kids

we had life situations that are hard for adults to deal with

and we had no adults who could really help us

i am a multiple convicted felon

and a former drug addict (including being an alcoholic which is every bit as much of a drug and drug addict as heroin or methamphetamene, dont kid yourself)

im uninterested with who "forgives" me or who accepts me or who thinks theyre better than me because they didnt make the kind of mistakes i made or who feels offended at things i say

i can tell you with 100% certainty that the positive impact my life is going to have on humanity is already greater and will ultimately VASTLY outweigh the negative

im going to promote what i call "adventure therapy" or "adventure life coaching"

this is where i will instruct people in things like scuba and sky diving and hang gliding
along with warrior philosophy
and the techniques of NLP
to empower people to live their lives fearlessly and openly and with a purpose

i have understanding on overcoming drug addiction that is based on the personal experience of someone who has overcome drug addiction themselves (me!)

i intend to add to and share that understanding

my understanding of martial arts is based on a lifetime of being exposed to violence

my perspective on correctional facilities and adjudication is a result ofhaving been sent to correctional facilities as a part of the adjudication process

the entire idea of revenge against criminals is absurd and archaic

if the victim or the victims family (if the victim did not survive) demands revenge then that ought to be considered and administered in proportion to the crime ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS with greater criteria (in most cases) than the severity of the crime alone

in the case of this kid in the article
he himself is as much a victim now as the man whos house he broke into

imo ifsomeone breaks into your home you should be able to shoot them dead without warning or explanation or fear of legal reprisal

i say this as someone who has been insideof someones house when i shouldnt have been

that being said

this dude shot these kids without a doubt in my mind out of either fear or indignation (probably a mix of both)

the expectation that people ought to be punished according for their actions irrelevent of their experiential context because of the harm which their actions inflict is as applicable to this guy as to anyone else

the argument that the kids were breaking the law is arbitrary

in some cases it is against the law to shoot people even if they are burgalars in your home unless they are clearly posing a direct threat to the life of you or someone else in the home

in some places if you shoot a burgalar in the back the state can charge you with murder

this is and a thousand other absurdities of law lead me to the unshakable conclusion that law in and of itself is arbitrary

to say "because they were breaking the law" is to say nothing at all imo

law is often absurd

so to say this man was legally justified to murder and unarmed teenager who did not know that he was there because the teenager was in his home in violation of the law

is never going to convince me that he was justified in murdering an unarmed teenager who did not know he was there

it may have become necessary to shoot at those boys

maybe he could tell from the things they were saying and the way they were behaving and from past experience with them or others in the neighborhood that these kids would have shot him or overpowered and then murdered him if he would have made his presence known

then again maybe they would have crapt their pants and begged him not to hurt them

to me what he did will probably turn out to be no better or more justifiable than what the kids were doing except that it will be easier to justify because we can say the kids were in his home
and so its easy to understand that he did the best he knewhow to do with the internal and external resources he had
hes probably not a bad person
most likely hes a good person who was facing a situation he didnt know how to handle any other way

and the way he handled it resulted in people getting hurt

one being killed and maybe two others facing life in prison

but he didnt do it because he is a bad person
he did it because he was a person who handled his situation in the best way he understood from within the context of his own perspective

the difference between me and many others in a case like this is that i understan that this essential truth applies just as much to those teenagers as it does to this dude

and i dont favor comounding tragedy with more tragedy

i dont see prison being needed for anyone involved here to understand the consequences of actions and decisions

what imo everyone in this situation needs is a set of experiences which allow them the opportunity to contribute to humanity in a waythey personally feel is meaningful and which empowers them to know their own worth as well as to see the worth of others

personally i would rather let everything i own be taken from me than kill one teenager and see two others sent to 50 yr prison terms

in TX its mandatory to do half your sentence before being eligible for parole and its customary to be denied parole the first time you see face the board

to throw a person in a cage for some absurdly high percentage of their life not only deprives them personally of that time to grow and contribute

but also takes what could usually be converted into a positive resource and turns it into a state imposed expense

you hear about people who go to prison and do their time and learn and come back to society having "grown up" like they say this kid has
but i tell you that these people usuall grow up IN SPITE of the "corrections" expereience and not as a result of it

a better investment of all of our money and emotion would beto hold on to the idea that every (or lets just start with saying MOST) tragedy like this could be seen as an opportunity to make a difference for the better in the lives of people who clearly need it

Edan wrote:

What if they found him (the shooter) sleeping? Would they have beat him up? Killed him? Raped him? How do we know? They were responsible for each other, and him more than others as he invited others... Safety in numbers if caught? They could overpower the homeowner? They instigated, and took their life in their hands

You can't punish an if though.

They are not...

Im simply saying that we dont know all the facts...

What we do know...

Someone is dead, and that sucks...

A young person is locked up, maybe for the rest of his life, that sucks too...

Someone now has to live with taking a life, that too, sucks I would think... And the stigma that goes with shooting someone...

What we are seeing is this kids story in the best possible light...

Every time I was in trouble, I told the story to (hopefully) make it appear I had just lost my way... Which I obviously had, but, I was still guilty of "whatever"...

We have created a society that is keeping children as children for longer

Honestly, I feel like the opposite is the true. We force adult expectations on children from younger and younger an age... blame media, society, schools, whatever.

[/quote]

Like Ryu said, I also see this as both...

We want children to grow up enough that they are not a burden to us, but at the same time, since they dont know what the hell they are doing, we want them to 'just listen to us'... lol...

Edan wrote:

We have created a society that is keeping children as children for longer

Honestly, I feel like the opposite is the true. We force adult expectations on children from younger and younger an age... blame media, society, schools, whatever.

~

A 12 year old asked my missus if she wanted a shag when she was obviously pregnant (29 y.o). Not adult-like, not child-like. Typical robbed childhood. Children and young adults nowadays are morons who it would seem only know what the corporations and lobbies want them to know. I was 12 and definitely up to no good in the neighborhood, not once did i even think of saying something like this... Not to mention it would have earned me an instant punch in the face, fully endorsed by mom and dad too. Now it's all about being "cool" or "hip" or whatever they call it now, and i really wonder who decides what that is going to be.

if i got out of line, my dad (stepdad actually) wouldn't hesitate to punch me over the sofa...i always got right back up...

before he died he told me that out of the 4 of us he was most proud of me. i owned up to my mistakes, never shied away from the consequences, acted responsibly, had proper priorities...and was one of the few people that could take a punch from him and get right back up...

during my childhood he was a cocaine fueled @$$hole that would abuse us for the slightest thing...it made me stronger, and gave me a clearly defined sense of my own sense of right and wrong...

pampered, undisciplined children become weak, unruly adults....or as the saying goes:"spare the rod, spoil the child"

Should 'justice' treat children like adults?

Yes.

It should be why they have judges, to make individual intepretations and compensations to achieve the best possible outcome from a bad situation. Generally speaking, smaller crimes could have more potential for leniency with kids IMO, but the worse the crime is the less room there should probably be - because the impacts of the crime increase with the crime which might point to more and more requirement to recognize the victim's more and more in setting the punishment. I think this can still happen for adults, but to a lesser extent as adults should now be role models for children and fully cognizant of the law and the need for following it.... well the ones that make sense at least
:whistle: