Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...)

Moderators: Adder, Adhara

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 12 Apr 2012 22:04 #56123

  • Akkarin
  • Akkarin's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Councillor
  • Priest
  • ID: 484
SeanChing wrote:
Senior Knight Akkarin,

I acknowledge your opinions, but I respectfully disagree with many of them.

Fair enough lol

I'm in the same position that you are it seems :)
Apprentices: Red Lila
Former Apprentices: Desolous
Former Master: Br. John

Councillor
Head of Public Relations and Marketing
Librarian
Associate Pastor

Senior Knight and Priest of the Temple of the Jedi Order

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 12 Apr 2012 22:10 #56125

  • Adder
  • Adder's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Knight
  • ID: 7778
I like the prequals, but I think they do have a few serious issues. I think the Phantom Menace was made for children < 10 years of age, and so I think Jar Jar should have killed by Darth Maul and Qui Jon felt a bit guilty so he became unbalanced by emotion when he fought and lost to Maul. Jar Jar had no place beyond the Phantom Menace. Clone Wars could have then been for 8 - 16 yr olds, no Jar Jar. I dont really agree with the video review, as I think they are not meant to be individual movies, but viewed as a set of 6 - unfortunatly the original's look more realistic then the prequals to watching them all back to back makes the eps1-3 feel quite fake with all that CGI. I did like the proposal of that video reviewer for the clones to be sort of a mutant Sith army wreaking havoc allowing Palpatine to rise up in power, that sounds awesome. I guess all those EU books might have meant Lucas felt cornered into a particular storyline which means the new ones do seem a bit of sell out from its artistic potential.

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 12 Apr 2012 22:15 #56126

@Akkarin

Those videos are so damn funny. If I had a beverage next to my computer, it would be splashed all over my screen by now...

But, I will comment on a particular thing you said:

"There is also no fundamental subtle moral teachings in the prequels."

I guess it depends what you mean by subtle. One person's subtle is another person's deer in the headlights.

I can think of 3 off the top of my head (in no order of subtlety):

1) When Qui-Gon tells Anakin to quiet your mind and you'll feel the Force speaking to you.

I look it that as meditation and quieting your mind and closing out all the distraction around you. A good thing. A positive.

2) Yoda tells Anakin, "train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." That teaches us a lot and opens up many positive possibilities about fear and attachment

(One of my favorites below, and arguably the most subtle)

3) Qui-Gon is fighting Darth Maul and is starting to tire. He kneels to meditate while Darth Maul paces hungrily. That is an awesome scene to me. We have a Jedi Warrior that is facing someone that is just better/stronger/faster than he is. In his meditation and calming of his mind, he probably realizes, I'm gonna die here. But rather than turn tail and run, he gathers the strength that he has and rushes Darth Maul with everything he's got. He rushes Maul! I don't think he had expectations to live, but he was not going to cower against an enemy.

I think there are MANY lessons, moral and otherwise, subtle and otherwise, we can take from that scene alone.

But again, those videos had me laughing good. I am in debt to you as I will share them with my brothers who are also Star Wars fans.

MTFBWY,
LTK
Former Master: Jestor
“I have striven not to laugh at human actions, not to weep at them, nor to hate them, but to understand them" -- Baruch Spinoza.

The following user(s) said Thank You: Reliah, SeanChing, hellisforhorses

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 12 Apr 2012 22:34 #56129

  • Akkarin
  • Akkarin's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Councillor
  • Priest
  • ID: 484
Learn_To_Know wrote:
3) Qui-Gon is fighting Darth Maul and is starting to tire. He kneels to meditate while Darth Maul paces hungrily. That is an awesome scene to me. We have a Jedi Warrior that is facing someone that is just better/stronger/faster than he is. In his meditation and calming of his mind, he probably realizes, I'm gonna die here. But rather than turn tail and run, he gathers the strength that he has and rushes Darth Maul with everything he's got. He rushes Maul! I don't think he had expectations to live, but he was not going to cower against an enemy.

That's one of the first scenes I thought of when you said subtle teachings

What I probably should have said is that the originals had FAR MORE moral teachings and philosophical teachings

They are a lesson whereas the prequels are more of just a fancy shiny new film with flashing lights


I'm glad people have been enjoying them :)

redlettermedia is amazing! lol
Apprentices: Red Lila
Former Apprentices: Desolous
Former Master: Br. John

Councillor
Head of Public Relations and Marketing
Librarian
Associate Pastor

Senior Knight and Priest of the Temple of the Jedi Order

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 00:52 #56148

Hi all. My computer died on campus, so I didn't get to elaborate on what I mean. Here is why I disagree with you, Akkarin. (After all, I don't think it would be adequate if I just said I disagree without an explanation/forum bumper)

SeanChing wrote:
- A lot more talking and less action in general

- Yoda is a cackling idiot for the first few minutes you meet him

Akkarin wrote:
You obviously don't understand the entire point of the trilogy then


First of all, I admit that my first statement, less action and more talking, shows that I'm a little superficial about movies in general. However, I like to watch movies because they are exciting, so I don't see a huge problem when I complain that the OT wasn't that exciting.

My second point, however, I will heartily defend. (I'm interested to see if you will agree or try to rebuttal.)

I said that I thought a major flaw with the OT was that "Yoda is a cackling idiot for the first few minutes you meet him" and Akkarin said that I didn't understand the point of the trilogy then.


Actually, here's why I do.

1) Yoda contradicts himself by acting that way. At first, he acts all goofy and senile and seems as though he has completely lost his mind and is completely incoherent. "Ooh! My flashlight! *Hits R2*"
Then, shortly after, when he reveals his "true" self, he teaches Luke, "A Jedi Must have the most Serious of minds" (something like that). If a Jedi has to be so serious, then why was he acting like such a mindless derp?

Now some people have come up with a flawed explanation that "Yoda was testing Luke's patience", but I don't buy that. A test is (from my experience) structured and by the book so that the tester can test the testee's skills by isolating variables.

When Yoda is supposedly testing Luke, by acting foolish, he goes about it very freely and without thought - I don't even think George Lucas wrote a script for that part. It was just the Yoda voice talking nonsense and yelling "ooh, oh! woah!" and "my flashlight! *Hits R2"


Talk about about a bad Yoda Script. And you guys complain about the prequel's bad dialogue, hmm???


2) Here another way Yoda contradicts himself. Luke asks, "is the dark side stronger" and Yoda quickly says "no no no! Quicker, Easier, more seductive".

If the dark side is "quicker", then why did Yoda reply with such a hasty response?


To be honest, when I watched the Empire Strikes Back for the first time, many moons ago, I actually thought Yoda was on the dark side and tricking Luke. After all, he has that dark side cave (which can confuse new viewer's about Yoda's intentions)and his voice is very raspy which made me think he was evil at first.

Again, some sketchy dialogue in the OT.



Now personally, I love all six Star Wars movies, and I certainly love the OT. However, get real guys! The OT is very flawed, just like the prequels, so it shouldn't be attacked so much, in my humble opinion.


3) I think that one of the reasons why people hate the prequels and love the OT is that the prequels came second while the OT came first. The first movie (out of all movie series) usually gets all the credit, and the movie director can never get a same response for sequels.



Please continue debating, if you feel the urge to! I love to debate about controversial Star Wars topics, especially with you guys, because I know we can disagree and still be a friendly community =)
Sean Ching - Jedi Apprentice
Teaching Master: Senior Knight V-Tog
Last Edit: 13 Apr 2012 00:56 by SeanChing.

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 01:19 #56150

  • Adder
  • Adder's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Knight
  • ID: 7778
Warning; I love Yoda's character and will defend it to the death!!!

1.
Yoda was being non-threatening, vulnerable, and annoying, deliberatly to ascertain the nature of Luke's personality - remember this is first contact between them. Yoda's was giving Luke a reason to get angry, as many people cannot control their anger and have too short a fuse.

I think Yoda's action would be suitable whether he knew in advance from Obi-Wans Force spirit or premonition, or if he didnt know who this guy was crash landing in his backyard to determine how to deal with it.

I think it is am important lesson in the Jedi way that knowledge is important before making decisions about someone.

2.
I think its actually a quite enlightened response from Yoda. If we look at the Three Pillars of Star Ways Jedi in context of how the Jedi view the dark side as a selfish path, then;

Force - Quicker, connecting to the Force through oneself (selfish) might be quicker then by everything around you (Jedi)

Knowledge - Easier, knowing yourself is much easier then knowing about everything around you.

Self-Discipline - More seductive, self explanatory.

So to answer, I'd say Yoda is well learned in the dark side, and didnt need to think about the response, as evidenced by an immediate reply framed in the context of the Jedi Pillars. So not only is it not sketchy, it could be seen as educative!

I dont think Yoda owned the whole planet, and it might be why he chose to live where he did because there was a dark place nearby - to keep an eye on it and anyone who visits.

Go Yoda!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Hadi Apollos

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 08:34 #56162

I'm just going to mention the Yoda part.

He was alone, completely alone for 30 years there was no evidence of him communicating with Obi Wan either.

Anyway, if you try to spend even 30 days completely alone you'll go a little bit fruit loopy. Let alone 30 years.

Trust me. That was actually one of the more valid points plus don't we all love Yoda for his quirky behavior that no one can understand half the time? :P
The following user(s) said Thank You: Akkarin, Aceboizor, Desolous

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 10:10 #56164

  • Aceboizor
  • Aceboizor's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Apprentice
  • Licensed Minister
  • ID: 7902
SeanChing wrote:
1) Yoda contradicts himself by acting that way. At first, he acts all goofy and senile and seems as though he has completely lost his mind and is completely incoherent. "Ooh! My flashlight! *Hits R2*"
Then, shortly after, when he reveals his "true" self, he teaches Luke, "A Jedi Must have the most Serious of minds" (something like that). If a Jedi has to be so serious, then why was he acting like such a mindless derp?

2) Here another way Yoda contradicts himself. Luke asks, "is the dark side stronger" and Yoda quickly says "no no no! Quicker, Easier, more seductive".

If the dark side is "quicker", then why did Yoda reply with such a hasty response?

3) I think that one of the reasons why people hate the prequels and love the OT is that the prequels came second while the OT came first. The first movie (out of all movie series) usually gets all the credit, and the movie director can never get a same response for sequels.

1) Yoda hardly contradicts himself. He isn't crazy or weird, he's acting. He is putting on a show because he KNOWS it's Luke (he's a flipping grand master after all), and he wants to get a feel for Luke's persona before he reveals his identity. So he puts on an act, something to get Luke's guard down and avoid suspicion.

2) Of course Yoda responds hastily...look what happened to this kid's father! Yoda's naturally going to do his best to steer Luke clear of the Dark Side because he knows what that did to Luke's father. It was a natural "human" response.

3) A movie director can never get a same response for sequels? Honey, have you seen Empire Strikes Back? That sequel got more excitement out of the audience than A New Hope ever did. I know what you meant to say, but when it comes to Star Wars, it's one exception to the rule.

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 10:10 #56165

Sooo...interesting tpoic of debate. Hm.

Well, lemme rub everyone wrong (in a comical way) by stating a few things.

Firstly, I LOVED Epi I, II, III more than the originals. Sorry Folks. I got to see the Jedi Community before it got wiped out, I got to see Gen. Griveous, and let's not forget Hayden Christiansen (sp?) is pretty darn hawt. Which brings me into my second point...

Second: Ewan Mcgregor....hotness. There is NO way to get around the fact that the only reason I loved Obi-Wan on screen was because the actor who played him makes my heart flutter with teen girliness...Also, I think in Ep 1 when he showed emotions...oh man...I lost my brain temporarily because it's totally hot when hot guys cry. (I realize this makes me kinda shallow, but he's an actor so I don't think this counts)

Third: EPIC FIGHT SCENCE!!!!! Yoda v Dooku! (Need I say more? Or has your respect for Yoda grown just a little bit more?) I basically faint just thinking about that fight because of it's sheer awesome.

Fourth: Of the original SW Films (they were all good but I have pref's) Return of the Jedi was my favorite hands down. And I don't feel the need to justify that. Cause lemme tell ya, The Empire Strikes Back *yawn*


Don't get me wrong...I understand the story and messages and whathaveyou behind the entire film concept. For the genre and style and era difference, I don't think the writing was all that terrible. What was created was a masterpiece and I respect it as such. And even devling into the expanded universe which clarifies so much of the story from the films just makes me respect SW more. And the principles and lessons therein.

I am of the opinion that Shakk Ti is a rolemodel for all Female Jedi Masters. She is THE embodiment of grace, power, and IMO stunning Jedi beauty. If I could be 1/10th of the Jedi Master Shakk Ti was I would be honored!

So there's my 2 cents on the matter. Enjoy the scandal :D
Master: Dan

-Sometimes....this is just hilarious. Welcome to the Viking Realms people! But seriously....we're eating boars and drinking mead....don't think you'll interrupt us.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Amras, Reliah, SeanChing

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 11:02 #56171

  • Kalkho
  • Kalkho's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Apprentice
  • ID: 9870
Personally, I recon that the prequel Trilogy is hated because it doesn't uphold Star Wars as a mythology. And while explaining the Force (Seriously? What for?) is not pretty, those are still some damn fine movies.

Let's look at the biggest duel in the old Trilogy, in Episode V. It seems too stiff for martial arts masters, who can control the world with their mind, doesn't it? Now, the Duel of Fates in Episode I is a true jaw-dropper, with John Williams' ingenious score and few seconds when Qui-Gon meditates; it's a real masterpiece, you've got to admit that.
Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • The Imperishable Gem (Last post by EEJim)
    • Men are born soft and supple; dead they are stiff and hard. Plants are born tender and pliant; dead, they are brittle and dry. Thus whoever is stiff and inflexible is a disciple of death. Whoever is soft and yielding is a disciple of life. The hard and stiff will be broken. The soft and supple will prevail. ~ Lao Tzu
    • How To Change The World: Repetition, Ritual and Be... (Last post by Alan)
    • The authenticity of the religion buffet is found not by reaching deep down to find within some mythical spiritual entity like soul, self or essence. Rather, the buffet (i.e. our syncretism) nourishes our practice of the virtues. It is expressed through Jedi action in the world. What is happening in this temple is unique. Revolutionary. We are developing a syncretic practice rejoining religion and philosophy after centuries of separation. A synthesis: * A philosophy of the hero. * A godless religion. * An aesthetic praxis. * An heroic science. Our dialectical dialogue between religion/philosophy, subject/object, or body/mind, freedom/responsibility is the creative struggle to make a religious philosophy or philosophical religion. Both have their place in the Temple. Jedi syncretism has limits. Our borders are clearly marked in the creed, teachings, and maxims.
    • To be "an instrument of peace" (Last post by rugadd)
    • I understand that the people comprising the working body of a system are more important a factor than the system itself. Knowing that leading by example is both effective and unhypocritical we come to the logic of being the change we wish to see in the world. Therefore, if we seek peace we must strive to live peaceful lives. Now imagine that conclusion being practiced by everyone.
    • Language learners (Last post by Edan)
    • Quote: The large sweeping motions in movies and wushu competitions are not the same as gong fu in practical application. I"ve found from personal experience that it becomes compacted in live combat. A high level of control, even a "natural state" of hand and arm gestures close to the body, is an insane advantage. Like the sign for "snake" or "wall", its easy to see how having a dictionaries worth of word movements to apply is like having every tool in the toolbox. Blocking especially. My father in law and fiance practice tai chi and wing chun so I know know you mean about movies, although I don't practice myself. I've never thought about the other practical applications of martial arts beyond the obvious; I learnt something new this week!
    • My Daughter (Last post by MCSH)
    • I'm so sorry Damion,... and I'm glad that she is okay now. I've missed this topic... I'll have you and your family in mind
    • From The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran (Last post by Zenchi)
    • Yeah, I looked it up, its in the public domain just about everywhere in the world except the United States as they changed copywrite laws to expand to 95 years after death..... :/
    • D&D (Last post by Joe)
    • Since i lack any form of routine in my life right now, i really can't say when i will have the time. Lets just go for "whenever" right now.
    • Confused (Last post by ryangoan)
    • "I profess before all my fellow Jedi that I,Ryan Goan born on 09/07/1984, without eservation, choose the Jedi path, until I am ready for Jedi Knighthood or I otherwise decide, with all its duties and responsibilities. I shall do that which is right and profess my allegiance to the Force. During that time I promise to do my utmost to uphold the Jedi teachings, and to live a life as is worthy of a Jedi."
    • The Order of the Good Death (Last post by Phortis Nespin)
    • Suicide has nothing to do with conquering fear. I have dealt with many suicides in my profession. None have been about conquering fear. Suicide is the end result of a life not understood. It is a rape victim who cannot deal with the shame. The anger of a son against his father. Wife against husband. Suicide is the last resort of a enfeebled mind. Until you see and hear the cries of the children who found their fathers body swinging in the garage, you must be careful of what you say here. There are many of us here that deal with this subject on a professional level and know. There are some here who may have tried to commit suicide and thankfully failed.

There are 392 visitors, 4 guests and 18 members online (none are in chat): Shadouness, Gaia Chi, Jestor, Connor L., Adhara, Luthien, AMD1988, Llama Su, Kamizu, Cyrith, Edan, tzb, babyblueyes247, jamesjohnston1741, RollFizzlebamf, Jamie Stick, Xan Montagu, EEJim, prosingerrenee27.

Follow Us