Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...)

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Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 12 Apr 2012 22:04 #56123

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SeanChing wrote:
Senior Knight Akkarin,

I acknowledge your opinions, but I respectfully disagree with many of them.

Fair enough lol

I'm in the same position that you are it seems :)
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Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 12 Apr 2012 22:10 #56125

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I like the prequals, but I think they do have a few serious issues. I think the Phantom Menace was made for children < 10 years of age, and so I think Jar Jar should have killed by Darth Maul and Qui Jon felt a bit guilty so he became unbalanced by emotion when he fought and lost to Maul. Jar Jar had no place beyond the Phantom Menace. Clone Wars could have then been for 8 - 16 yr olds, no Jar Jar. I dont really agree with the video review, as I think they are not meant to be individual movies, but viewed as a set of 6 - unfortunatly the original's look more realistic then the prequals to watching them all back to back makes the eps1-3 feel quite fake with all that CGI. I did like the proposal of that video reviewer for the clones to be sort of a mutant Sith army wreaking havoc allowing Palpatine to rise up in power, that sounds awesome. I guess all those EU books might have meant Lucas felt cornered into a particular storyline which means the new ones do seem a bit of sell out from its artistic potential.

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 12 Apr 2012 22:15 #56126

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@Akkarin

Those videos are so damn funny. If I had a beverage next to my computer, it would be splashed all over my screen by now...

But, I will comment on a particular thing you said:

"There is also no fundamental subtle moral teachings in the prequels."

I guess it depends what you mean by subtle. One person's subtle is another person's deer in the headlights.

I can think of 3 off the top of my head (in no order of subtlety):

1) When Qui-Gon tells Anakin to quiet your mind and you'll feel the Force speaking to you.

I look it that as meditation and quieting your mind and closing out all the distraction around you. A good thing. A positive.

2) Yoda tells Anakin, "train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." That teaches us a lot and opens up many positive possibilities about fear and attachment

(One of my favorites below, and arguably the most subtle)

3) Qui-Gon is fighting Darth Maul and is starting to tire. He kneels to meditate while Darth Maul paces hungrily. That is an awesome scene to me. We have a Jedi Warrior that is facing someone that is just better/stronger/faster than he is. In his meditation and calming of his mind, he probably realizes, I'm gonna die here. But rather than turn tail and run, he gathers the strength that he has and rushes Darth Maul with everything he's got. He rushes Maul! I don't think he had expectations to live, but he was not going to cower against an enemy.

I think there are MANY lessons, moral and otherwise, subtle and otherwise, we can take from that scene alone.

But again, those videos had me laughing good. I am in debt to you as I will share them with my brothers who are also Star Wars fans.

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Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 12 Apr 2012 22:34 #56129

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Learn_To_Know wrote:
3) Qui-Gon is fighting Darth Maul and is starting to tire. He kneels to meditate while Darth Maul paces hungrily. That is an awesome scene to me. We have a Jedi Warrior that is facing someone that is just better/stronger/faster than he is. In his meditation and calming of his mind, he probably realizes, I'm gonna die here. But rather than turn tail and run, he gathers the strength that he has and rushes Darth Maul with everything he's got. He rushes Maul! I don't think he had expectations to live, but he was not going to cower against an enemy.

That's one of the first scenes I thought of when you said subtle teachings

What I probably should have said is that the originals had FAR MORE moral teachings and philosophical teachings

They are a lesson whereas the prequels are more of just a fancy shiny new film with flashing lights


I'm glad people have been enjoying them :)

redlettermedia is amazing! lol
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Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 00:52 #56148

Hi all. My computer died on campus, so I didn't get to elaborate on what I mean. Here is why I disagree with you, Akkarin. (After all, I don't think it would be adequate if I just said I disagree without an explanation/forum bumper)

SeanChing wrote:
- A lot more talking and less action in general

- Yoda is a cackling idiot for the first few minutes you meet him

Akkarin wrote:
You obviously don't understand the entire point of the trilogy then


First of all, I admit that my first statement, less action and more talking, shows that I'm a little superficial about movies in general. However, I like to watch movies because they are exciting, so I don't see a huge problem when I complain that the OT wasn't that exciting.

My second point, however, I will heartily defend. (I'm interested to see if you will agree or try to rebuttal.)

I said that I thought a major flaw with the OT was that "Yoda is a cackling idiot for the first few minutes you meet him" and Akkarin said that I didn't understand the point of the trilogy then.


Actually, here's why I do.

1) Yoda contradicts himself by acting that way. At first, he acts all goofy and senile and seems as though he has completely lost his mind and is completely incoherent. "Ooh! My flashlight! *Hits R2*"
Then, shortly after, when he reveals his "true" self, he teaches Luke, "A Jedi Must have the most Serious of minds" (something like that). If a Jedi has to be so serious, then why was he acting like such a mindless derp?

Now some people have come up with a flawed explanation that "Yoda was testing Luke's patience", but I don't buy that. A test is (from my experience) structured and by the book so that the tester can test the testee's skills by isolating variables.

When Yoda is supposedly testing Luke, by acting foolish, he goes about it very freely and without thought - I don't even think George Lucas wrote a script for that part. It was just the Yoda voice talking nonsense and yelling "ooh, oh! woah!" and "my flashlight! *Hits R2"


Talk about about a bad Yoda Script. And you guys complain about the prequel's bad dialogue, hmm???


2) Here another way Yoda contradicts himself. Luke asks, "is the dark side stronger" and Yoda quickly says "no no no! Quicker, Easier, more seductive".

If the dark side is "quicker", then why did Yoda reply with such a hasty response?


To be honest, when I watched the Empire Strikes Back for the first time, many moons ago, I actually thought Yoda was on the dark side and tricking Luke. After all, he has that dark side cave (which can confuse new viewer's about Yoda's intentions)and his voice is very raspy which made me think he was evil at first.

Again, some sketchy dialogue in the OT.



Now personally, I love all six Star Wars movies, and I certainly love the OT. However, get real guys! The OT is very flawed, just like the prequels, so it shouldn't be attacked so much, in my humble opinion.


3) I think that one of the reasons why people hate the prequels and love the OT is that the prequels came second while the OT came first. The first movie (out of all movie series) usually gets all the credit, and the movie director can never get a same response for sequels.



Please continue debating, if you feel the urge to! I love to debate about controversial Star Wars topics, especially with you guys, because I know we can disagree and still be a friendly community =)
Sean Ching - Jedi Apprentice
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Last Edit: 13 Apr 2012 00:56 by SeanChing.

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 01:19 #56150

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Warning; I love Yoda's character and will defend it to the death!!!

1.
Yoda was being non-threatening, vulnerable, and annoying, deliberatly to ascertain the nature of Luke's personality - remember this is first contact between them. Yoda's was giving Luke a reason to get angry, as many people cannot control their anger and have too short a fuse.

I think Yoda's action would be suitable whether he knew in advance from Obi-Wans Force spirit or premonition, or if he didnt know who this guy was crash landing in his backyard to determine how to deal with it.

I think it is am important lesson in the Jedi way that knowledge is important before making decisions about someone.

2.
I think its actually a quite enlightened response from Yoda. If we look at the Three Pillars of Star Ways Jedi in context of how the Jedi view the dark side as a selfish path, then;

Force - Quicker, connecting to the Force through oneself (selfish) might be quicker then by everything around you (Jedi)

Knowledge - Easier, knowing yourself is much easier then knowing about everything around you.

Self-Discipline - More seductive, self explanatory.

So to answer, I'd say Yoda is well learned in the dark side, and didnt need to think about the response, as evidenced by an immediate reply framed in the context of the Jedi Pillars. So not only is it not sketchy, it could be seen as educative!

I dont think Yoda owned the whole planet, and it might be why he chose to live where he did because there was a dark place nearby - to keep an eye on it and anyone who visits.

Go Yoda!
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Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 08:34 #56162

I'm just going to mention the Yoda part.

He was alone, completely alone for 30 years there was no evidence of him communicating with Obi Wan either.

Anyway, if you try to spend even 30 days completely alone you'll go a little bit fruit loopy. Let alone 30 years.

Trust me. That was actually one of the more valid points plus don't we all love Yoda for his quirky behavior that no one can understand half the time? :P
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Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 10:10 #56164

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SeanChing wrote:
1) Yoda contradicts himself by acting that way. At first, he acts all goofy and senile and seems as though he has completely lost his mind and is completely incoherent. "Ooh! My flashlight! *Hits R2*"
Then, shortly after, when he reveals his "true" self, he teaches Luke, "A Jedi Must have the most Serious of minds" (something like that). If a Jedi has to be so serious, then why was he acting like such a mindless derp?

2) Here another way Yoda contradicts himself. Luke asks, "is the dark side stronger" and Yoda quickly says "no no no! Quicker, Easier, more seductive".

If the dark side is "quicker", then why did Yoda reply with such a hasty response?

3) I think that one of the reasons why people hate the prequels and love the OT is that the prequels came second while the OT came first. The first movie (out of all movie series) usually gets all the credit, and the movie director can never get a same response for sequels.

1) Yoda hardly contradicts himself. He isn't crazy or weird, he's acting. He is putting on a show because he KNOWS it's Luke (he's a flipping grand master after all), and he wants to get a feel for Luke's persona before he reveals his identity. So he puts on an act, something to get Luke's guard down and avoid suspicion.

2) Of course Yoda responds hastily...look what happened to this kid's father! Yoda's naturally going to do his best to steer Luke clear of the Dark Side because he knows what that did to Luke's father. It was a natural "human" response.

3) A movie director can never get a same response for sequels? Honey, have you seen Empire Strikes Back? That sequel got more excitement out of the audience than A New Hope ever did. I know what you meant to say, but when it comes to Star Wars, it's one exception to the rule.

Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 10:10 #56165

Sooo...interesting tpoic of debate. Hm.

Well, lemme rub everyone wrong (in a comical way) by stating a few things.

Firstly, I LOVED Epi I, II, III more than the originals. Sorry Folks. I got to see the Jedi Community before it got wiped out, I got to see Gen. Griveous, and let's not forget Hayden Christiansen (sp?) is pretty darn hawt. Which brings me into my second point...

Second: Ewan Mcgregor....hotness. There is NO way to get around the fact that the only reason I loved Obi-Wan on screen was because the actor who played him makes my heart flutter with teen girliness...Also, I think in Ep 1 when he showed emotions...oh man...I lost my brain temporarily because it's totally hot when hot guys cry. (I realize this makes me kinda shallow, but he's an actor so I don't think this counts)

Third: EPIC FIGHT SCENCE!!!!! Yoda v Dooku! (Need I say more? Or has your respect for Yoda grown just a little bit more?) I basically faint just thinking about that fight because of it's sheer awesome.

Fourth: Of the original SW Films (they were all good but I have pref's) Return of the Jedi was my favorite hands down. And I don't feel the need to justify that. Cause lemme tell ya, The Empire Strikes Back *yawn*


Don't get me wrong...I understand the story and messages and whathaveyou behind the entire film concept. For the genre and style and era difference, I don't think the writing was all that terrible. What was created was a masterpiece and I respect it as such. And even devling into the expanded universe which clarifies so much of the story from the films just makes me respect SW more. And the principles and lessons therein.

I am of the opinion that Shakk Ti is a rolemodel for all Female Jedi Masters. She is THE embodiment of grace, power, and IMO stunning Jedi beauty. If I could be 1/10th of the Jedi Master Shakk Ti was I would be honored!

So there's my 2 cents on the matter. Enjoy the scandal :D
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Re: Prequel Haters Gon Hate - But why? (BE nice...) 13 Apr 2012 11:02 #56171

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Personally, I recon that the prequel Trilogy is hated because it doesn't uphold Star Wars as a mythology. And while explaining the Force (Seriously? What for?) is not pretty, those are still some damn fine movies.

Let's look at the biggest duel in the old Trilogy, in Episode V. It seems too stiff for martial arts masters, who can control the world with their mind, doesn't it? Now, the Duel of Fates in Episode I is a true jaw-dropper, with John Williams' ingenious score and few seconds when Qui-Gon meditates; it's a real masterpiece, you've got to admit that.
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    • Ritual Eating, Activity and Sleeping for Ideal Health!? I read a very interesting article yesterday which I think could have great importance for people trying to manage mental stress and disorder, which to be honest is everyone!!! I'll take a moment to explain what/why I think its important, or you can just go down to the link to the study itself if its TLDR> Hopefully the read though will help explain it!! The sleep-wake cycle of mammals is controlled by a ‘circadian clock’ within the brain, which is synchronized to the day–night cycle. This can be represented in one way by the Cortisol levels; [attachment] Which could be simplified to associate with triggering the increase in energy levels, which tend to 'wake up' the body gradually from sleep and support the many functions for daily activity. However, other aspects of mammalian physiology have been observed to fluctute in cycles that repeat every few hours, and are known as ultradian rhythms but it appears that mental health is higher when they are synchronized in a harmony... like music in tune perhaps. The main internal clock, the circadian rhythm, has been thought to be the primary timekeeper, but authors of the study have now identified a second internal clock within the brain, which they name ‘the DUO’ (dopaminergic ultradian oscillator), and shown that this clock normally works in concert with the circadian clock to regulate daily patterns of activity, alertness and eating. You might know that dopamine is an important brain chemical in memory and mental health, and disorders including schizophrenia and ADHD which all points to mental perception itself more broadly. "...results provide strong evidence that a dopaminergic ultradian oscillator (DUO) driving rhythms of behavioral arousal is continuously operative in the mammalian brain. We propose that under normal conditions, this DUO cycles in harmony with the circadian SCN pacemaker and that the rhythmic information of both the SCN and the DUO are integrated at a common downstream site to create the daily pattern in locomotor activity. However, elevation of DA tone can lead to DUO period lengthening, which either results in DUO free-run or reinstatement of oscillator synchrony albeit at a different harmonic. The DUO appears as a highly tunable oscillator, able to adopt period lengths from a few hours to multiple days. This is instark contrast to the circadian timer which cannot adopt periods that are more than a few hours off from 24 hr when its limits of entrainment are tested experimentally" "Experiments in mice revealed that the DUO uses the brain chemical dopamine to generate bursts of activity roughly every four hours. Moreover, it continues to work when the circadian clock has been destroyed. Measurements of dopamine in freely moving mice showed that levels of the chemical fluctuate in synchrony with the animals' activity levels. Moreover, drugs that flood the brain with dopamine, such as methamphetamine, disrupt the 4-hour cycle by lengthening the period between bursts of activity, whereas drugs that block dopamine receptors have the opposite effect." So another reason to not take Meth, as if you didn't already have enough, LOL But seriously, I don't think they directly suggest that perhaps food and activity cues engage the dopamine system specifically to reset this into harmony, rather saying "it is clear that dopamine signaling also affects food intake as mice lacking dopamine are lethargic and do not actively consume food". They state "the DUO is a universal driver of ultradian behavioral rhythms in mammals, and that ultradian bouts of running-wheel and feeding activity are co-expressed, suggesting that dopamine can synchronously drive food seeking and general activity - which is in line with the view that dopamine acts as a general promoter of motivated arousal." but it makes me wonder perhaps if an important part of good health is the management of a quite literally 'harmonious' pattern of eating, activity and sleeping as a much higher priority in peoples lives for health, happiness and therefore longevity and productivity. So here is a modification to the above cortisol graph, which has a new red waveform at 4 hour intervals to represent the dopamine cycles, fixed at the lowest cortisol peak (which then happens to perfectly line up a peak with the 12 noon peak), and also added a blue single sine wave to represent an idealized circadian cycle fixed at the 12 noon peak to perhaps accurately represent the delayed impact of cortisol but also its association to the peak of light in a day - night cycle so readily attributed to circadian rhythms. [attachment] Perhaps a Jedi 'ritual' for health could be eating small meals and doing some small exercise at these peaks to harmonize the body and mind to enrich the soul!!! Here is the study; A highly tunable dopaminergic oscillator generates ultradian rhythms of behavioral arousal elifesciences.org/content/3/e05105
    • Calming the Mind (Last post by Cyan Sarden)
    • Quote: I think that a Jedi should be able to act calmly in all manner of situations and no matter how their day has gone, both inwardly and outwardly. For the most part I can act outwardly calm usually, but sometimes my inward calm and serenity are just not there. Like this morning, I haven't been sleeping well. (Outside sources waking me up and I am a terribly light sleeper) My mind was agitated from the get go. I worked out, try to do my normal daily stuff, but nothing quieted my mind today. I couldn't even sit down to mediate. So I was just wondering what type of techniques you all use to help maintain that mental calm? Especially when you are agitated or have had a bad day? Hopefully a good night's sleep will help for tomorrow. Thank you ahead to time for your suggestions. As you already meditate, you're already doing what I would call the single most positive self-improvement technique there is. You say you couldn't even sit down and meditate - I can relate to that. I have days when I find it hard to sit. Ultimately, it's essential that you do so anyway, except when you're physically incapable of doing so (due to illness, for example). Meditation doesn't lead to inner calm very quickly. It did almost nothing for me in the beginning. I still kept doing it every day. The funny thing is: over time, I did get a lot quieter. I find it much easier to distance myself from things. You're asking: what can you do to calm down when you're agitated or had a bad day. There are lots of things, autogenic training or progressive muscle relaxation etc. Ultimately, these only fight the symptoms, however. Meditation, and this has become my deep conviction, fights the root cause. Agitation and really bad days tend to become less and less frequent with diligent practice and your question doesn't need to be asked anymore.

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