A Problem.

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9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #170929 by Jestor
Replied by Jestor on topic A Problem.

ren wrote:

Rickie The Grey wrote:

If I thought clergy were any good at it back when I was on the council, I probably would have joined them, but the fact is my fondest memories of clergy are of them managing to produce a sermon without my assistance, usually because someone else was there to do the kickin' and screamin'. This being said it'd be nice to see knights and above contribute to "doctrinal discussions".


Come on man put up or....

Be part of the solution. Do you believe you have valuable contributions or are just back ground noise? :) ;) :P


I did my contributing doctrine-wise, now I do my background-noising :P


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

But always with good intentions...:)



Cabur Senaar wrote:

Jestor wrote: My son is 15.. Been on the Jedi path for a few years now...:)


That's very exciting! I hope he grows into an excellent Jedi.


He is off to a good start..

Thak you for the well wishes...:)

On walk-about...

Sith ain't Evil...
Jedi ain't Saints....


"Bake or bake not. There is no fry" - Sean Ching


Rite: PureLand
Former Memeber of the TOTJO Council
Master: Jasper_Ward
Current Apprentices: Viskhard, DanWerts, Llama Su, Trisskar
Former Apprentices: Knight Learn_To_Know, Knight Edan, Knight Brenna, Knight Madhatter
Last edit: 9 years 4 months ago by Jestor.

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9 years 4 months ago #170944 by
Replied by on topic A Problem.

Akkarin wrote: Alethea brought up the example of the ISIL leader, but I can bet you that probably a large number of Muslims do not consider that man a Muslim, but you know what, I doubt that makes any differences to him at all, he will still continue calling himself a Muslim regardless.

Similarly anyone in the world can just call themselves a Jedi, it is even possible that a new religious movement will develop alongside ours, one far larger, and then they will call themselves "Jedi" and we'll be the "outcasts", but is that going to get me to stop using the name? No.

TotJO - or anyone - simply does not have the power, nor the right, to say universally what is and what is not a Jedi. Where do we have that power and that right? Within and only within the confines of our own organisation.

The membership of people has been retracted in the past...


Someone has anonymously expressed concern about this post so I am going to clarify what I have said against their worries to reassure them that they way it was interpreted was not how I had intended it to be interpreted. Hopefully this post will clear up any misunderstandings that have been accidentally created.

What I have said should not be taken as any sort of "threat", I'm not saying that we don't have the right to express what a Jedi is outside of our homes, and doing so will certainly not result in one having their membership revoked, I was also not trying to "bully" anyone into agreeing with my position.

"Within and only within the confines of our own organisation" means that if you are a Jedi here at TotJO, you can't dictate to Jedi at Force Academy, or IJRS, or Chicago Jedi etc how to be "Jedi-like". I am a Councillor of TotJO, I have no authority to make decisions in any Jedi church other than TotJO. This works both ways, Council members of other Jedi communities are similarly not allowed to come here and start telling us what to do. This applies both ways whether you're a Councillor or a Temple member.

Everyone is welcome to express what they think a Jedi is, that is the only way we can have a good debate, but what I'm trying to say is that even though we can express it that doesn't mean we should expect everyone to agree on it and abide by that decision. I can express what I think a Jedi is or should or ought to be, but that doesn't mean that every Jedi is all of a sudden going to conform to my expectations - I don't have the power nor the right to every try and do such a thing.

"The membership of people has been retracted in the past..." means that we do not accept everything regardless, some people have been told to leave based on their behaviour etc. The thread began with: "That doesn't seem very Jedi...", all I'm saying by my comment is that while we may not have the power to decide upon standards outside of our community, we do have the power to decide some standards within it. Memberships being revoked are extremely rare, because we are a very open and accepting and forgiving community, but at the same time we don't allow people to behave in every way they might want.

I hope that makes my original post clearer :)

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9 years 4 months ago #171011 by
Replied by on topic A Problem.

Proteus wrote: In my eyes, one's own chosen perception and choice of practical application of a lesson is their responsibility. Self accountability is important. Therefore, whatever goes "wrong" with their practical application is on their hands. It is for them to adhere to the consequences of their choices and actions, and learn from their mistakes. No understanding nor practical application can always be perfect and this is one of the things that is part of learning as a Jedi. "Acceptable behavior", beyond the walls and control of the temple's own rules, is not determined by the temple but by the outcome of their actions. It is not for us to be an authority on this. It is not us who teach them, it is they who teach themselves through their experiences. This is how we have always learned from the beginning, because it is the most basic nature of learning we know of.


Sure, it's their own responsibility. Taking responsibility for the consequences of one's own actions should be expected. But isn't this where the master (assuming they are an apprentice) comes in? Isn't it incumbent upon the master to teach their pupil and "correct" them? If the pupil is expected to teach themselves, how are they supposed to make progress when they get stuck in behavior that is keeping them from the ultimate truth you spoke of? If we don't have standards, how does the master know how to help the pupil? Also, when you say "Acceptable behavior, beyond the walls and control of the temple's own rules, is not determined by the temple but by the outcome of their actions" it sounds a bit like the end justifies the means. The behavior is acceptable if the outcome of their actions is acceptable.

Proteus wrote: Well, thankfully, we don't punish somebody for failing to grasp a level of philosophy concerning their human nature. If they fail to learn, then the natural consequences of it will come about as they may. They will experience those consequences, and upon those consequences being undesirable to them, they will naturally figure out for themselves that until they do put in the sincerity to learn, they will continue to experience the effects brought about by where they are in their state of being. All we can do as a temple is be there for them in support of what they are experiencing and offer any guidance that we can (most aptly upon their eventual seeking of it), in the form of sharing our own understanding in a humble and compassionate manner.


Agreed. Thankfully nobody is punished for not understanding something or I'd be severely punished by now :) Hopefully it won't take them so many instances of experiencing the consequences of their actions that they harm anyone. Hopefully in their process of self-realization they don't push people away from the temple who do sincerely want to learn. I suppose in more extreme instances the council steps in and takes whatever action they feel is best.

Proteus wrote: For me, there is no point that I would ever determine that he's not a Jedi. I would never depend on determining that he was in the first place; simply a human being. Remember, a Jedi is a play on the archetype of the Hero on a personal Journey, and that journey often includes phases of faltering, before coming back into redemption. Every Hero experiences it because the virtues that define a Hero depend on it. It is only for the experience of human nature to determine what one can be or can't be - not an institution. That is not our job, nor our ability.


That's fair. I certainly wasn't suggesting that someone be punished or anything of the sort because they faltered. I was more concerned with someone who refuses to change their behavior. But Jedi are patient and just because someone is straying from the path doesn't mean we give up on them as long as they show a willingness to learn. And those who (in extreme cases) could bring harm to someone are dealt with at a higher level of administration than the general temple as you say below.

Proteus wrote: Then they will experience the natural effects of what that brings. They may find that they are not taken seriously, and eventually will become bored after the fact. They may merely start out in such a state but then begin to witness things in certain people exhibiting sincere example around the temple that may instill an inspiration in them to decide to aspire to their state, and realize, they will have to put in the work to do it. Otherwise, they will remain bored and frustrated and go elsewhere to satisfy their ego. That is their prerogative, and not our responsibility to dictate. However, if they begin to disturb the community's ability to focus on the lessons they are working on, they are consulted via PM or email to work out the issue at hand, and if it comes to pass that no amount of dealing with them that way will lessen their disturbance, there are protocols followed to remove them from the temple until they decide to respect the spirit of the rules of the community.


I guess this sorta sums up all answers to all my questions. I think perhaps I haven't been around enough to take notice of enough people exhibiting sincere examples to outweigh those exhibiting insincere examples. That's not to say that there aren't great people here. Please don't misunderstand. They just aren't quite as vocal as the rest which limits their efficacy as examples because all we really have to go on is the communication afforded to us by the internet. One of the limits of communicating solely via the internet is that we don't see what people do every day in the Jedi community unless they put it in their journal and we happen to read it. If we were all in a physical temple together or even living in the same community it would be easier for those sincere examples to have an impact. The "standards" would come about naturally.

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9 years 3 months ago #172217 by
Replied by on topic A Problem.
You are wise beyond your years my friend. this couldn't be better said.

steamboat28 wrote:

Proteus wrote: We are practicing Jedi, not perfecting it.


Perfection is an unreachable goal, but the only one worth striving for. Even in failing, we are better than we were.

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