ATTN: COUNCIL; Updated Doctrine Proposal

More
13 Oct 2019 06:21 #344352 by JamesSand
I have two thoughts, possibly disparate, possibly incoherent. Note it's 430 here, I've just finished working through my day off, I'm musing the days events with my friend Jack, and chatting with my wife, so we'll see how it falls into the path.

The reason I bring this up, is because the conventional view of being a Jedi uses the idea of a doctrine as an exclusive, external device for manual qualification (you must adhere to what this document says in order to qualify as the label),


I'm not sure the principles are a checklist, like an auditor might use to determine if you've "Jedi'd" correctly that day are entitled to the appropriate tax credits.
More of an odometer, a reference, a check to see if you are on course compared to where you think you are....

I forgot my other thought, Maybe it will come back to me.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Alethea Thompson

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
13 Oct 2019 07:13 - 13 Oct 2019 08:04 #344353 by JamesSand
Well my old thought never came back to me, but I suppose I had another.

When it comes to the Doctrine, I don't see us as an "alternative" to abrahamic or faiths - I don't see the need for a list of "rules" for being a Jedi.

There are some common things some of us come to from our world understanding, but it's not a Rule as such.

I'll go with Attachments, as they were in a recent thread -

I am less likely to say "A Jedi Avoids Attachments" than "A Jedi recognises attachments for what they are, and seeks to balance their actions in light of their own bias"

but I'm not necessarily the right person to ask or have input, because I see it as more a Philosophy than a Religion.

All can come to the table, eat the beans, contribute questions or answers, and depart when they've had their fill.

Others feel it should be more of a Club, with specific bylaws, attendance requirements, votes at annual general meetings, and contribution to bake sales....

It's complex. TotJO/Jediism as a brand has to mean something, it has to have something that explains what it is to others, and a mission statement of sorts.

It's not a favour for a kingpin, you're not "in or out" before you even know the terms, but I also think it's not a self-help book. you shouldn't be able to summarize it on the dust cover as 15 things you can do to be better at everything! (number 7 will surprise you!)



Whilst I'm rambling -

So we've got the doctrine, now or later, maxims or teachings or principles, it matters not.

Are they the introduction or the Conclusion? Do we start with "A Jedi does this, and now we'll teach you how" or do we say "Here's something to think about" and hope that the student writes the answer as we would imagine it (without giving them the answer ahead of time)

I guess this is the difference between teaching rules and behaviours.

I know I can't (or must) do certain things, I don't know why I just know the consequences if I do. Those things are Rules.

There are other things I simply don't (or do) want to do, and I might not even remember why or when I came to that desire, but it's a part of me nonetheless - Those things are behaviours.

You can have the best looking list of fine qualities in the world - if they're not delivered and trained in a way that they become a part of the person, they're just rules. Might as well be A Jedi Doesn't Jaywalk.



Still rambling -

Allowing the student to pick and choose is risky, especially the immature student who may not have solid framework upon which to balance those selected items....

If someone has lied to you once, you are going to suspect them of lying to you about everything. It's how our prejudice works to keep us safe. I'm not saying that any particular principle is a Lie, just that once someone accepts even a single one as not applying to them, each one after that is easier and easier to dismiss.

If you list 10, very specific, very wordy "outcomes" of being a Jedi, if even one of those doesn't Mesh with that individuals understanding (and we allow that, because we're a pick and choose kinda religion) then they are more likely to also drop a few more that don't mesh perfectly, then maybe some others - because hey, they canned half already, and at the end of it, you're lucky if your person studying the Jedi path really cares about even one or two of your principles.

Better to keep it few, keep it broad, and not necessarily vague, but "unspecific" (unless, as above, you're willing to do the groundwork from the time someone can talk to ensure all their thoughts and habits are aimed towards what you think a Jedi is)

Take 4 - since Proteus doesn't like Meditating (by that word. I don't like it either, but I like swimming, which fills the same space in my day for breathing and head clearing activity)

"4) A Jedi Meditates regularly, to improve mental focus, clarity, and calm passions, allowing one to see the beauty in one’s surroundings and circumstances."

Why not "A Jedi seeks to improve focus, clarity, and calmness" - It is what you want, but it's not so prescriptive as to encourage a student to say "Well I don't want to do that, so I'm scratching that off my path"




FURTHER RAMBLING:

I'm not on my own computer at the moment, so I don't have access to any of my training documents (also, apparently I don't believe in "The Cloud" so I am tethered, like a chained minotaur, to the heavy stones of physical data storage....)

but as a quick rewrite, not unnecessarily playing the thesaurus game and without questioning necessarily the relevance, or need for the principles themselves, which I would like to do later, because I believe it is somewhat putting the cart before the horse to quibble over the form of the criteria before accurately assessing the requirement or method of training to achieve it.

1) A Jedi seeks to better understand the ways of the Force in order to gain
balance and to know their place within it.

2)A Jedi has an intimate connection with the world.

3)A Jedi cultivates empathy.

4)A Jedi seeks focus, clarity, and calmness.

5)A Jedi recognises the influence of the past, and the potential of the future, but acts in the now.

6)A Jedi seeks self awareness.

7) Redacted. Concept covered in (4)

8) Redacted. The concept is encapsulated in (6)

9) A Jedi takes responsibility

10) A Jedi understands the difference between courage and recklessness

11) A Jedi seeks to improve (I dropped most of this one because I simply don't support the idea that Jedi can self-proclaim themselves wiser and more suitable to govern than anyone else, and I don't want the idea that they might be in the basic teachings provided to passers-by or junior students)

12)A Jedi seeks objectivity.

13)Redacted. Too similar to (12). (12) Can be rewritten to the suit the "mood" of 13 being that all decisions have an effect...

14) A Jedi recognizes the value of inaction is equal to that of action, (already talked about how this phrasing seems off for what I think you are trying to say)

15)Redacted. We get it, be objective.

16)This can be combined with (11). I don't have the sentence formed yet, but it feels close enough to be the same principle.

17)Redacted. This just says Don't be a Dick. Put it up with (3), or add the word Compassion to (3) or (4)

18)Redacted. Same as (9). Move (9) to Last if you feel it's the "Final" and therefore "most important to remember" principle.


So what are we at now? 11 Principles?


A final ramble? (everyone hopes)


Please note I am not (at this point) taking jabs at your principles themselves, just at the format and delivery and application. Proteus' points notwithstanding, I give my feedback from the perspective of "If I had to run a Jedi Church, and I needed some things I could hang on the wall, and build lessons around, and use as both inspiration, and assessment criteria for my happy little Jedi novices, how would I do it?"

I'm not an expert at training, but I met a teacher at a pub once, so I am trying to apply the concepts I was told about to this situation here.
Last edit: 13 Oct 2019 08:04 by JamesSand.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Skryym

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
13 Oct 2019 14:14 - 13 Oct 2019 14:23 #344355 by Carlos.Martinez3
Just talking still..
A lot of what I post is quotable and usable for a reason.

Truthfully in case your wondering the term “Jeddist” or modern day Jeddist is off the Disney radar. Using the term”a Jedi or Jedi - still belong to some one else.

What little time I did speak and take with Daniel M . we both realized and use this term for books and quotes so... we don’t get in Trouble. There is also that factor. Filling pages with the word Jedi is kinna dangerous in this day and age too- Disney went against deadmau5 ( a independent dj) on just his mask alone to look too much like the Mickey silhouette... just think what they will do to these books and thing we as a community are pulling out with their words in it? Something to think about as we move tword things like this more and more. As Jeddist we are smart - think about it. That alone in a proposal can’t be ignored no matter the wonderful usefulness or not.


Other unofficial means or un official sites may get away with it but we are a bit more ... of a target as we are official and have the license to loose more than most. Just saying that’s pretty real talk. Things may need adjusting even as they are now as well. Food for thought .
Edit : I don’t ever wanna be the rain in peoples celebration. Not my goal. I’m not saying no at all just - adjust as we go.

Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
pastor@templeofthejediorder.org
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
Last edit: 13 Oct 2019 14:23 by Carlos.Martinez3.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
13 Oct 2019 15:56 - 13 Oct 2019 15:57 #344358 by Alethea Thompson
“Jedi” isn’t actually a problem or Disney would be all over several people in the community for having published works. And American Jedi would have never made it into production. Even when they went after the lightsaber group “New York Jedi” “Jedi” wasn’t a part of the dispute. We need to lay that fear aside :).

A lot of people dislike that word “meditation” because they associate it with strictly Eastern styles, but if you’re thinking deeply upon something, you’re (by definition) meditating.

It’s not that I mind that particular edit. I just dislike all the hate around the word “meditate” ;).

My screen is really small so I can hit other points later but:

Be objective doesn’t actually cover 15. Because attachments also affect your ability to move in harmony with the Force. There’s a woman i know of whom can’t move on from her son’s death about 5 years ago. Now it’s not that she’s still mourning the loss- it’s that she literally can’t get on with anything else in her life. If we left this to “objectivity”, it ignores the process one has to go through to get through their grief. Okay- I can hear it: But doesn’t 3 take care of that? No, because compassion is an outward illustration we give to others- it’s not linked specifically to what we need to do for ourselves. 15 is entirely a focus on the self and moving past the obstacles we’ve put in our lives- where most of the others deal with interpersonal relationship.

And on 13: Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to limit it down to “A Jedi tolerates what is not Jedi, and only pass judgment against that which inflicts harm upon another being.” i explained it in the other thread but to recap- I felt like tolerance was the primary focus of this particular tenet. Though it seems worded with the intent to get across that Jedi have a “warrior monk” tone to them. Leaving the portion about justice was a nod in the direction of the epic hero’s journey, whom set out to actually help the world around them as they gain further knowledge of themselves.

That’s all I can do for the moment, lol. Gotta get back to work. But I’ll be back ^^, and hoped more discussion will have spurred.

Gather at the River,
Setanaoko Oceana
Last edit: 13 Oct 2019 15:57 by Alethea Thompson.
The following user(s) said Thank You: ZealotX

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
13 Oct 2019 17:07 #344360 by JamesSand

Be objective doesn’t actually cover 15. Because attachments also affect your ability to move in harmony with the Force. There’s a woman i know of whom can’t move on from her son’s death about 5 years ago. Now it’s not that she’s still mourning the loss- it’s that she literally can’t get on with anything else in her life. If we left this to “objectivity”, it ignores the process one has to go through to get through their grief. Okay- I can hear it: But doesn’t 3 take care of that? No, because compassion is an outward illustration we give to others- it’s not linked specifically to what we need to do for ourselves. 15 is entirely a focus on the self and moving past the obstacles we’ve put in our lives- where most of the others deal with interpersonal relationship.



I see your point in that it is two different meanings. I'm not sure that "A jedi cultivates a state of robust of mental health and the ability to cope with loss and unexpected emotional trauma" is a particular goal or trait of Jediism. There may be a better way to phrase it.

And on 13: Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to limit it down to “A Jedi tolerates what is not Jedi, and only pass judgment against that which inflicts harm upon another being.” i explained it in the other thread but to recap- I felt like tolerance was the primary focus of this particular tenet. Though it seems worded with the intent to get across that Jedi have a “warrior monk” tone to them. Leaving the portion about justice was a nod in the direction of the epic hero’s journey, whom set out to actually help the world around them as they gain further knowledge of themselves.


Sure. I was just trimming what was there as I read it, I wasn't really looking into the principles themselves past face value. That Jedi don't proselytise is certainly a good point, as is that Jedi don't go around purity testing everyone for the sheer hell of it, but on re reading (13) a few more times, I'm more and more of the mind that it doesn't need to be there at all.

It's certainly something to teach, in case a student asks "Why don't we go around telling everyone else they are stupid and they should join us?"

It also stands out as being your only principle which is a "Do not" instead of a "Do"

Perhaps something like "A Jedi embraces diversity of thought" (doesn't feel right, but something better has not presented itself to me yet)

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
13 Oct 2019 17:09 #344361 by Carlos.Martinez3
I like the use of meditate. It’s still -now- 2019 a word that can still mean moment of recognition / think time - quiet time - pause time- stoping - thinking - time outs - zazen moments- it’s still for me that idea of time reverend. I think that’s the right word. But for me that’s a real every day word. That sacred time. Label it and use it how ever but we all know that’s what that is type of thing. At least for me. I totally understand the idea of diss association from contemporary terms as well. Some times I think more than actual meditate some days. I still have a healthy balance I think of my whole actual practice but as far as that word... I’ll use it till I find others using other terms for it- I’ll use those when I learn of them. Smiley face. And that’s always my question - then what do you call it or use as?

Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
pastor@templeofthejediorder.org
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
13 Oct 2019 19:23 - 13 Oct 2019 20:06 #344371 by OB1Shinobi
“A Jedi tolerates what is not Jedi, and only pass judgment against that which inflicts harm upon another being.”

Eating inflicts harm on other beings. Are Jedi to pass judgment on eaters? What about those who vote for the wrong political party or candidate? You know, the one thats ruining (thus harming) the whole country? Shouldnt Jedi pass judgment on them?

People are complicated.
Last edit: 13 Oct 2019 20:06 by OB1Shinobi.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
13 Oct 2019 20:44 #344375 by

OB1Shinobi wrote: “A Jedi tolerates what is not Jedi, and only pass judgment against that which inflicts harm upon another being.”

Eating inflicts harm on other beings. Are Jedi to pass judgment on eaters? What about those who vote for the wrong political party or candidate? You know, the one thats ruining (thus harming) the whole country? Shouldnt Jedi pass judgment on them?


No.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
13 Oct 2019 21:25 #344379 by Alethea Thompson
lol- maybe we should put “real” back into that line.

Eating animals in and of itself isn’t harm- it’s an engagement in the natural food chain. At some point, you reach unreasonable judgements of each other- food (a necessity for survival) shouldn’t be on the table.

A good conversation to be had, though, is whether or not a Jedi should strive to eat as ethically as they are financially capable.

In terms of political ideology- there is a lot of moving parts there. When you have a corrupt government, it’s hard to judge anyone’s decisions of who should and shouldn’t be in elected leadership positions. I personally refuse to judge anyone by their basic political affiliation. I’ll judge them on the merit of their personality and actions, as those speak more clearly of their intentions than a vote or general support of a candidate. But that’s me, and I place a high emphasis on personal responsibility over Durkheim’s “Collective Conscious”.

Gather at the River,
Setanaoko Oceana
The following user(s) said Thank You: OB1Shinobi, Kobos

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
14 Oct 2019 11:02 - 14 Oct 2019 11:03 #344396 by forestjedi
This thread, and the post which started it, comes from a place of (perfectly valid and reasonable) opinion. The post above is a great example - your opinion is eating animals "isn't harm". For many others, it is, and they choose not to do it, thus Vegetarianism and Veganism exist.

As you know well Alethea, Jediism is a broad church indeed, taking in any number of perspectives. There are many alternative, er, outlets, which take a greater or lesser influence from the EU materials referred to in this part of the doctrine. Some discard them entirely (my personal practice does, too).

The problem I perceive in instituting doctrinal change is, the doctrine as it stands is what brought this specific community of Jedi to this place in particular. Changing it because of an opinion you happen to have will have the consequence of alienating those of differing opinion and should at least require broad consensus this is "a good thing", something this thread seems to demonstrate is not the case. So the question for me is: is it worth alienating an unspecified number of people who are invested in this community as it is, to appease an unspecified number of people whom:
a) are already here and doing just fine despite this issue in particular,
b) have plenty of choice to go find/start something more aligned with their personal preferences elsewhere,
c) maybe haven't found this place yet, and are thus not invested in it already

For you, it is broken and thus needs fixing. But I don't perceive that as the prevailing attitude? I don't see a ton of chat about this in other threads or hear of significant work to check people actually want this prior to coming forward with a proposal? Of all the problems this place has, which people do talk about... why is this the one to merit change?
Last edit: 14 Oct 2019 11:03 by forestjedi.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Carlos.Martinez3

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Moderators: ZerokevlarVerheilenChaotishRabeRiniTavi