Freemason Jedis

So can a Pantheist be a freemason? And if so, what book do they swear in on?

That is a good question. Normally, only a belief in deity is needed to fulfill the spiritual requirement. I'd have to ask. Good question.

Also....According to my local Worshipful Master, normally a lodge has a base of people ( christians... muslims.... etc) and the common book is what they look. It looks like Jediists may have to form a lodge of their own. Ill shoot off an email to the grand lodge and see what they say.

I am a Third Degree Master Mason here in Tennessee. So, to whoever else is here, you are not alone! lol!

Jabi Musah wrote: So can a Pantheist be a freemason? And if so, what book do they swear in on?

There are the Hindu Vedas?

Br. John wrote: Jedi don't need books to take an oath.

No, they don't, but that's not the point. The Masonic rituals require the presence of whatever the petitioner considers to be holy writ, be it the Bible, or the Qur'an or the Vedas, or the Bhagavad Gita, Jedi Holocron, etc. There must be a physical representation of it, for ritualistic purposes which I shall not go into.

As to which holy book that is, it need not be the one used most by the Lodge. It would probably feel awkward to ask to use the Jedi Holocron if you know that everyone else in the Lodge probably used the Bible for their own Initiations. So in that sense, having a separate Lodge for Jedi would be somewhat nice. But it is completely within your rights as the petitioner of any chartered Lodge to require your own holy book to be used for your Initiations.

Many Masons don't know that, surprisingly, so if you ask two different Masonic sources for that kind of information you may get different answers. But what I have provided here is the true answer. At any rate, discussing religion or politics in the Lodge room is forbidden, so it's not like you'd find yourself trying to discuss the Force with people who would just look at you weird.

All that is required of you is that you be a man, free (not a slave or indentured servant, although that's not really an issue any more), of legal adult age, and not atheist. If you believe in anything that could be construed as a higher power or as God, that works.

Or should work, anyway. However, due to recent unfortunate events within U.S. Masonry, I will provide here the caveat that it depends on what state you live in, as to how accepting they are of pagans, Jedi, etc.

Namely, I know for a fact that the entire state of Florida is not accepting of pagans, Gnostics, or agnostics. I'm assuming that probably includes Jedi. And some further info . Notice the picture of the Grand Master who made the ruling, and how contentious he looks. No surprises there. Who knows, if he were to smile, it might crack his face, and then where would we be?

I am good friends with a Mason...

The Grand Lodge, which I see pretty dang often, lol, has the letters:

A.F. and A.M.

Which Im told means "Ancient Free and Accepted Masons"...

Which was explained to me that the "Ancient Free" means never having been slaves in the persons lineage...

So, basically, no black men...

But that black men have their own "club" called: "Prince Hall"...

I never joined, any group, if it excluded others...

If all were accepted, but only had to ask, I might have considered it...

Jestor wrote: The Grand Lodge, which I see pretty dang often, lol, has the letters:

A.F. and A.M.

Which Im told means "Ancient Free and Accepted Masons"...

That part is accurate.

Jestor wrote: Which was explained to me that the "Ancient Free" means never having been slaves in the persons lineage...

That part, not so much. This topic is kind of a can of worms, so let me see if I can sort this out for you and anyone else reading.

Ancient doesn't go together with Free as one phrase. It means the Fraternity itself is an ancient one, which it is. If they had intended Ancient to denote "never a slave" then they would have put "Always Free". What you've mentioned here very much strikes me as an interpretation handed down from a "good ole boy" perspective, if not by your Mason friend, then by whomever taught him that.

Not all Masons are the same. It is not correct to say that "Freemasonry" is racist, because it is not. My home Lodge in Texas accepts Blacks, and they are not part of any clandestine Lodge system like Prince Hall. There are simply some Lodges run by racist Masons, who insist on bending the true principles of Masonry to their prejudiced world view.

A close logical examination will show that this is true:

1) Nobody in the world can know with absolute certainty that all of their ancestors have never been slaves.
2) There are many Blacks from places like Australia or Africa whose ancestors have demonstrably never been slaves in America. But they would still be made to feel unwelcome in those Lodges with a racist membership.
3) Jews are allowed to be Masons, and yet ancestrally Jews were slaves to ancient Egypt. But you don't see them being barred from membership, even from Lodges that employ the interpretation you gave above.
4) Masonry is very old. In its early days, America didn't even exist, much less American slaves.

So saying that "Ancient Free" means "never a slave ancestor" or "no blacks" is obviously misinformation stemming from a racist agenda that your Mason friend is probably not even aware of. I'm sure he probably really believes that's what it means, but that doesn't mean he's right. Especially if you look at what the true historical spirit of Masonry actually is -- inclusiveness, unity, charity, truth, and brotherly love.

Being racist isn't truthful, inclusive, loving, or charitable, so it cannot possibly be a Masonic characteristic. It is a characteristic of specific people who are spiritually flawed and need improvement. (None of us is perfect.) We should not then, for this reason anyway, avoid Masonry if we seek further Light.

Jestor wrote: So, basically, no black men...

It is true that some Lodges, especially ones in Southern states, can make Blacks feel unwelcome in the Lodge. So I say more power to those determined Black aspirants in forming their own Prince Hall system, even though it is unfortunate that such is necessary. I understand from talking with a friend of mine who is a Master Mason in a Prince Hall Lodge that their rituals and material are taken verbatim from the mainstream Masonic tradition. They show respect and appreciation for the symbolism, ceremonies, and spiritual work.

Jestor wrote: I never joined, any group, if it excluded others...

If all were accepted, but only had to ask, I might have considered it...

Well, again, it depends on what you mean by group. If you mean a specific Lodge, then great. I would avoid those racistly-minded Lodges too. But if you mean Freemasonry as a whole, it does not exclude anyone but women. But even that is a tradition based on spiritual pragmatism. Originally, men were the only ones empowered in society to form lasting secret societies with regular meeting places, security, etc.

So it started out all men solely as a function of that, not because of a spirit of discrimination against women. But then it evolved into a useful thing, not having women around as a sexual distraction, in a setting where men are trying to concentrate on spiritual sublimation and purification of the desire force inside them. That is why Masons wear white aprons over their loins. Yes, ideally, men should be able to make spiritual progress with women around, but a lot of us men need all the help we can get in the beginning.

Even then, there is the Order of the Eastern Star for women, which has its own special rituals and ceremonies, and they socialize closely with Masonry. Or if the appearance of gender inequality bothers you too much, there is always Co-Masonry, if you can find one of their Lodges near you. They allow both genders and have the same rituals, symbols, and traditions (minus excluding women).

I chose to go through the "regular" Lodge that I did because it was my father's. Otherwise, I might very well have chosen a Co-Masonic Lodge. Just be mindful that "regular" Lodges consider Co-Masonry Lodges to be invalid; the term they use is "clandestine". And again, that's only officially -- from Mason to Mason acceptance can vary. I personally consider any Lodge seeking further Light by conforming to the Masonic symbols and traditions, without modifications other than perhaps allowing women, to be worthy and valid.

Thanks for clarifying what AFAM meant. My lodge, and all the ones around here, simply are F&AM.

As a Mason, I'll say this. The racial aspect of masonry is much the same as church. You have some lodges, both Prince Hall and none, that have significantly mixed membership. You have some Price Hall lodges with one white guy, and you have some non-PH lodges with one black guy. I have never personally seen or heard of a black person being made uncomfortable, intimidated, or refused entry into a lodge, and, on the rare occasions that a white guy wanted in to a Prince Hall lodge, he was usually welcome. I even know of one case where a Prince Hall lodge had a white Worshipful Master. My point is, Masonry, like church, is often voluntarily and informally segregated. Most blacks want to go to a black lodge, because Prince Hall lodges have an important place in African-American history. Most whites, and people of other races, just go to normal lodges. Most jurisdictions consider Prince Hall to be regular, but I don't think mine does, although most of us are cool with the idea.

I am glad I have stumbled upon this section because I was starting to wonder if I might be the only one here, but then again we are never alone in our travels. So I greet you my brothers! When I get back to the US next year from this deployment I will post more here as I will be coming up for some degree work, and if any of you are from the northern part of California, I would extend my invitation to you if you would like to be present.

Greetings friends, Jedi and Brethren. I am a Third Degree Freemason and I found this topic very interesting ... it is about time such topic exists and I hope it sticks around for those that have questions etc. Of course any Jedi that is a Mason will always try and clear matters if it is within their power.

I belong to the Ancient Free and Accepted Masons, Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon. My lodge is in Vancouver, BC and I am very honoured to call myself a brother to all Masons as well as a fellow Jedi. I am currently working through the IP and find it fascinating, as I did while working through my degrees as a Mason.

I can only speak about the Lodges that I have participated in so I will just say this ... I see, in every Lodge I visited, a mix of people from all walks of life. All races are represented and we always have visitors from other nations' lodges that we welcome with a hearty handshake. All religions are represented, also.

The very idea of discrimination is disgusting and tricky. We do not discriminate yet we must insist that all those that wish to become Masons believe in a higher power. Each degree teaches a moral lesson and is designed to make the candidate explore himself. Very much like the IP Program here. The candidate is compelled, on each degree, to learn something new about himself, to find truly what makes him tick, to find the foundation from which to build a better person. The idea is that as one labours to become a better man then that individual will move closer to the divine - there must be something to reach for, yes? It is useless to compel a person to become better than they are if they do not believe in a power better then themselves. So it is the inner search that matters. The fact that they already have a faith of adherence and they hold it true to themselves is enough for us and will not be interfered with by members of the Lodge. I don't care if you are Buddhist or Muslim or Pagan or Jew. Catholic or Protestant or whatever. Jeez, even if you believe that a giant turtle is behind all of this nonsense then if you believe it, that settles it, I won't argue.

It is interesting to note, however, that I have not met one true atheist. I have always been able to find one thing that an atheist believes in. Just my opinion and my experience, mind you, but most people that call themselves atheists are measuring their beliefs against the main religions of the world. Please bear with me to explain myself:

So much about Freemasonry has been written about, lied about and exaggerated about that the common person, just bopping along, will hear many different ideas about what Freemasonry 'is'. It has been our history, alas, never to correct nor imply any difference from the rumours people say of us. Human beings are naturally curious about esoteric ideas and mysteries. 'Oh, you have to swear on The Bible/Koran/Other religious work',people say in whispers, as if it is a sacred rite handed down from the darkest times. But in the same day we will have no problem putting our hand on a Bible in court to swear the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth etc. Very rarely have I heard of a witness in court protesting the use of an acknowledged 'holy' book to compel the truth from them ... and kudos to them for standing their ground when they have.

I want people to understand that the stipulation regarding the belief in a higher power includes not only the more popular religions but extends also to the more natural one that most people agree on - that we are not by accident, that a higher power or at least organized power with the will or at least the ability to create life must exist. Not necessarily an old man behind a cloud sending his kids down just to get pinned to a tree or a giant spaghetti monster flying through the sky. The atheist I have had the pleasure of speaking with have found that their very definition of their beliefs had been influenced by everything other than their own will to truly define what religion is.

There is always common ground between people, sometimes it is no man's land, but never for long. It is our very nature to hold a belief in something 'else' out there. As Masons go, however, it is rare to see a billboard advertising membership let alone media relations people or sideshow hawkers yelling 'step right up, third degree here, step up folks lots of room, all you gotta do is just believe in SOMETHING etc.'

At any rate.

Masons go way back in time ... who knows how long because it is hard to find facts to rely on because for many many years our fraternity was secret. But we do have our traditions. Male. Free. Higher Power. The free part people get hung up on, also. Pity we split hairs or debate definitions when we could spend our little time on earth doing better things.

I am free, you are free ... we all are free. I see no slaves here, thankfully. I see the children of slaves and slave owners. The children of kings and peasants. The children of warriors and innocents. Of saints and sinners, love and darkness, compassion and light. Of a Force with a thousand thousand names.

I did not see any rules about dead threads, or any rules for the forum in general except in the FAQ (please send me a link if I am wrong).

So, I thought I would resurrect this thread, as I am a hard atheist, which a few people in this thread, and more on this forum, appear to have never met before.

I do not believe in any form of supernatural higher power. I do not believe in ghosts, voodoo, tarot, remote viewing, witchcraft, psychics, or any other "woo", to borrow a term from James Randi.

I do however, have to argue that the masons are quite mistaken. I may not believe in any of these things, but my grandfather was a mason, and I would love to become one myself. But I am, hilariously enough, too honest for Masons to accept. I was told that if I just bent my personal beliefs a -tad- and called myself a deist, I could become a mason. But I will not, and cannot do that, because I do not believe in any higher power. Deists believe in a higher power, but don't think it cares about us one whit, or judges us at all... so really, I don't see how it's that much different from atheism where Masons are concerned.

After all, Masons feel that you need some sort of higher power to aspire to emulating, so that you'll want to become a better person. They feel there has to be something to enforce your oath, to enforce you being a good person.

That is a load of horse hockey, to steal a term from M*A*S*H. I do not sit here on my laurels and not try and become a better person. As a matter of fact, I work my ass off to learn as much as I can to evolve my own beliefs, to learn more about myself and the world around me at every turn. I am more than willing to say "I don't know", but I am not willing to say I believe in something that I do not. I am not built in such a way that I can believe in something for which there is no evidence.

I am a hard atheist, but I work hard at self improvement, and I do not need some supernatural power to enforce any kind of oath against me. I wish to improve myself simply because I want to be the best person I can, know the most I can, and provide the best life I can for myself and whoever I choose to share my life. I love and care for others just as much as anyone who believes in a higher power can, and I would argue that I am even more highly motivated to make an impact in the world and better myself than anyone who believes in a higher power to come bail them out.

If you believe in the power of prayer, or witchcraft, or anything else that is a supernatural fallback, something you can call on in times of stress or need that will help to bail you out, then you have something I do not have. If you believe that God or Gaia or the Force is looking out for others, than that can turn into a copout, and a reason for you not to go and help those people yourselves.

Through basic philosophy I can employ the golden rule and discover that because I want to live my life a certain way, and I can find satisfaction and happiness by being treated in a certain fashion, others might wish to be treated that way too. Through basic observational skills I can observe that as being true. And then, because there is -no one else- that is going to help bail those people out, no one else that is going to go to their rescue or aid, I act. I do my best to change the world around me precisely because I am the only one going to do it. Humans often fall victim to a psychological bias that makes us think that something else will take care of a problem. We only feel responsibility for something if we are the only people there who could prevent it. This is called the Bystander Effect. Sometimes people feel the same thing with religion. God can change it, so why should they bother? It must be part of the plan.

I do not bear the Masons any grudge or ill will. I love them, and the work they do in improving themselves. But when they cannot look past the ends of their own noses to see that it is, in fact, possible for someone to wish to improve themselves, to strive to be better, even without a god?
When they feel that I could not be trusted to hold an oath, simply because I do not believe in a god?

That stings. It stings like no other, because I know it is not true. There are hundreds of thousands of examples of pious individuals breaking oaths for a myriad of reasons. Believing in a higher power is not some magical fail safe.

So why not give me, or other atheists who are in the same boat, a shot?

Ty, are you looking for a helpful response to your questions? Or were your questions largely rhetorical, as you have already made up your mind about them and were primarily just venting at this point? (Which is ok, if you were. That can have its uses too.)

A lot of people ask questions that they don't really want to hear answers to. Their questions may be merely a vehicle to express their anger. Or they ask the wrong questions and then wonder why they never get any helpful answers toward what they really wanted to know.

If you were seeking constructive feedback, let me know.

The masons I asked didn't have an actual answer, so if you do actually know the answers, I would be more than happy to hear them.

It was, after all, a little of both. Heh.

I know people that are Masons. Some are just outstanding individuals and some have traits that are less than desirable in my book.

That being said, we are all just people. We are all fallible. And we all have our moments when we shine.

Even though I would love to discuss things with them, they have their oaths, reasons and beliefs. Just because I may not agree with them entirely does not justify any judgment one may make of them.

From what I understand of their beliefs, the importance of having one (a deity) that is higher than the individual is because of their belief in a grand design and their place to serve. If there were not an architect, who would you serve, be “accountable” to and gain a “divine” guidance from?
Jut my opinion from the details I have been able to gather.

Read Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma, read Manly P. Hall as well.

I am doing my best to refrain from this conversation...

See, I think I am considered a conspiracy theorist, so, I will do my best to not judge...

Questions for Free and Accepted Masons: (please forgive if answered already)

What is the acceptance about? What does it mean?

What is the difference of Free Mason, and Mason? If everyone is free??

Why be secret, what is the point? Cool, you got a gentleman's club, but to act like you got something to hide, tells me your hiding something, not any particular individual maybe, not speaking to the Masons here, like they have or know some agenda, but really, to conceal, forms an identity of mistrust, no?

I would like to see someone refute Manly P.Hall

Plus, the years of experience studying and research, my gut or faith says there is more going on behind the curtain of this gentleman's lodge...

In all fairness I have nothing against the Masons here, I hope this is realized.
Peace.

The reason freemasons require a belief in a higher power is because it serves as a basis for control through co-optation. If you go beyond the 3rd degree you find they believe in the great architect who is above all the other gods. This great architect is known as Horus:

From what I've gathered, they also hold in reverence the figure known as Lucifer, or "bringer of light", in that their vision is to illuminate the minds of men. Though this is possible, I can't substantiate this as most things in the fraternity are secretive in nature.

I have seen several things in this thread which sound an awful lot like people are buying into the suspicions, prejudices and rumor mongering that goes on far too often.

It seems that any time we don’t know what we think we are ‘entitle’ to know or are told everything we want, then we jump to popular conclusion.

And as far as secret goes, I have never had one refuse to talk to me and discuss things about themselves or their community.

I feel that for many, even if they invited you in and let you observe everything they do, you would still be convinced that it was all a conspiracy to keep the truth from you and that none of it was what was actually happening.

Also, by some of the posts in this thread I can tell that some people have never taken the time to actually find out what is going on. The internet conspiracy page is not a good place to get un bias opinions or facts.

I would suggest taking the time to actually talk to one, not question and accuse, and get to know them. Perhaps they will share with you.

Was just at a dinner last week with a mason.

He said two things. It is an organization that trains leaders and that they don't care what Higher Power you believe in . . just do so and participate in a community of shared belief. . . that is part of the mason training.