Taoism

I agree with you Rickie the Grey, there is very little difference in the basic philosophy of jedi and tao. Apart from the words we use to describe it, and if studying tao has taught me anything it's that words do not really suffice.

Alexandre Orion wrote: "A drunken man who falls out of a cart, though he may suffer, does not die. His bones are the same as other people's; but he meets his accident in a different way. His spirit is in a condition of security. He is not concious of riding in the cart; neither is he concious of falling out of it. Ideas of life, death, fear and the like cannot penetrate his breast; and so he does not suffer from contact with objective existence. If such security is to be got from wine, how much more is to be got from the Tao ?"

~ Chuang Tzu

So, if you're not in Tao, get drunk :whistle:
by the way, does humor belongs in Tao ?

What you said was funny. So why not?

Andy Spalding wrote: You only really need the first part of the Tao.

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

After reading this you might as well close the book and head out for a walk because the rest is just saying the same things in different, equally vague, words.

If you are looking for something with less Eastern wisdom(vagueary) you should look in to stoicism. Many of the same concepts presented for a western mind

i agree with andy. it reads as so much vagueness to me, which i guess is the point. in one of my last chapter reviews of biocentrism, after dr lanza mentions eastern religions again as clearly more favorable than western ones, i wondered:

'what it is about Westerners becoming enamored with Eastern religions. My guess is that the Eastern religions have the flavor of the new, the mysterious and the unknowable. ‘This religion/philosophy/whatever must be awesome because no one can understand it’ kind of thing.'

i started writing my own little taoisms a little while ago, after seeing the tao quoted all over the place here. my favorite one i posted, about the catfish. equally vague and meaningless as what i have been reading. o, i know, i know: 'desolous, thats the point.'

Desolous wrote: ...after dr lanza mentions eastern religions again as clearly more favorable than western ones, i wondered:

'what it is about Westerners becoming enamored with Eastern religions. My guess is that the Eastern religions have the flavor of the new, the mysterious and the unknowable. ‘This religion/philosophy/whatever must be awesome because no one can understand it’ kind of thing.'

By 'western religions' I presume, as most do, that you mean 'Christianity/Islam/Judaism' + their various forms. Even though Paganism/Wicca are also arguably 'western religions' but they just don't get the same level of publicity...

But with regards to the former three religions, they are typically about submitting yourself to a higher power (or at least are warped into that by some churches) "OBEY US AND BE SAVED!"

Whereas when people make the comparison to Eastern religions it is typically with the view that they are all about You yourself rather than submittance to a higher power.

It is down to the differences in philosophy based, a lot in the west, on Descarte (the world is a clock we can understand by taking it apart) as opposed to the holistic views you find in Eastern thought.

It is a good idea actually to read through it. Seeing as how they are small books, why not take them on your walk with you ?

Could we see your "taoisms", Des ?

You know, neither Lao Tzu, Chuange Tzu nor Lieh Tzu "copyrighted" anything at all. Some translators in recent years, say - the last couple of centuries- may have, but well ... screw them. I wouldn't say they have the flavour of the "new" (that is for those into exoticism), but they are relatively free of tyrannical dogmas - probably because they had enough tyranny in other areas.

As long as you are advocating effortlessness, non-resistance, non-interference, non-expectation and thus the purest, truest vision of love from within, your stuff may very well be every bit as good as the stuff dug out of old China.



Of course, if it is all about control issues and defending the right to kill people, we'll take the piss out of you ...

:laugh:

Alexandre Orion wrote: Could we see your "taoisms", Des ?

...

Of course, if it is all about control issues and defending the right to kill people, we'll take the piss out of you ...

:laugh:

no need to take my piss. and i Have read them, at various points throughout my life. in fact, one of my earliest non-childrens books was on buddhism, which of course from there led to the exploration of other eastern paths, much to the consternation of my catholic mother and secret joy of my agnostic scientist dad. i revisit the tao from time to time. i dont have control issues, nor do i think i have the right to kill someone.

heres the one i posted a while ago:

'Woman goes fishing in a river near her hometown. She hooks giant catfish, obviously larger and older than she, for she was quite small and slender. After wrestling the catfish ashore, she exclaims, 'wow, you're huge! you must be the oldest thing in the river!'

Catfish eyes her lazily and says something in a language the woman doesn't understand, because catfish can't speak english.'

MCSH wrote: I read it once, but I just read, and passed...

I should go and study it again

If you can contact Alexandre Orion, he can help you a lot... he told me he studied it since the past 17 years (lol, same as my age!!!)

You could check out Zhuangzi's writing on the Tao if you haven't! I always recommend him to those that want a bit of a lighter start than the Tao teh Ching. He is a lot more fun to read than the Tao teh Ching and less enigmatic. He's also discretely humorous and mocking in his tone which makes it even more fun to read!

Oh, there's always the Tao of Pooh too! This is how I was really introduced to Taoism and its even more fun to read than Chuang Tzu/Zhuangzi

I've been reading the Tao Te Ching since I was 17, which was approximately 12 years ago. It is one of the books that I readily accepted because it resonated with my inner voice. It's for this same reason that I joined this community because it closely resembles Taoism.

How does the sea become the king of all streams?
Because it lies lower than they!
Hence it is the king of all streams.

Therefore, the Sage reigns over the people by
humbling himself in speech;
And leads the people by putting himself behind.

"The highest truth cannot be spoken, therefore the greatest teacher has nothing to say. He simply gives himself in service and never worries." —Lao Tzu

That is the one quote from the TTC that will forever guide me. It is my mantra.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can have a word with him? -Zhuangzi

Touché.

It isn't that wise people don't talk, it's that they have learned a simple truth. The Tao finds use in that which has empty space, and there is nothing you can do to achieve this understanding other than to realize you already have.

The bamboo shadows are sweeping the stairs,

but no dust is stirred.

The moonlight penetrates deep into the bottom of the pool,

but no trace is left in the water.


Anonymous

Alexandre Orion wrote: As long as you are advocating effortlessness, non-resistance, non-interference, non-expectation and thus the purest, truest vision of love from within, your stuff may very well be every bit as good as the stuff dug out of old China.



Of course, if it is all about control issues and defending the right to kill people, we'll take the piss out of you ...

:laugh:

Oh god, that's the most helpful and funny thing I've read about violence and Taoism so far, haha. Not sure if resurrecting this thread is a better idea than starting a new one, but I've gotten very interested in Taoism as a result of the members here. It very much speaks to where I am in life right now, and is simultaneously a neglected area of my world religions studies. Plus the fictional character I'd like most to emulate is a pretty good follower of the Tao -- Jimmy Stewart's character in Harvey.

Anyway, for the Taoists out there, what does your "devotional" practice look like, if such a concept is even applicable? What do you find helpful to living the Tao more fully? Do you use any regimen or practice such as meditation? What do you do when you find yourself getting caught up in "the cares of this life," as it were, and starting to return to old "genrefications" of good and bad? How do you stay focused on "doing your job, and moving on to the next" (to paraphrase Ron Hogan's version of the TTC, cause I'm sure I'm screwing the quote up)?

Hi, sleepscience.

I'll answer briefly, if that's alright. I consider myself a philosophical Taoist. My devotional practice is done primarily through.. well.. living, I suppose. Throughout the day, I reflect on what I believe to be the sacred and interconnected nature of the universe and do my best to continually observe my thoughts and perceptions through various lenses. I also enjoy daily tai chi and often put aside time to browse classic Taoist (and Zen) texts. For me, devotion when it comes to Taoism equates to a feeling of being connected with (and/or part of) the Tao, and these practices help bring me closer to that.

I do meditate as well. However, I don't always associate meditation with Taoist devotion in my mind. Meditation to me, in a Taoist sense, can be as simple as stopping to appreciate a beautiful tree or sitting quietly by a gently flowing stream. And you might catch me doing either of those occasionally.

Personally, Taoism has made it easier for me to deal with "the cares of this life." It has helped me become a much more hopeful person because I understand that everything in life moves in cycles, and perhaps more significantly, that fixed ideas of good and bad are just fiction. Like everyone, I have bad days and sometimes fall into the good/bad trap, but I'm usually good at pulling myself out of that state of mind fairly quickly these days (that wasn't the case when I first discovered Taoism).

I'm not sure I fully understand your final question, but will comment that it's been important for me to learn/realize that even in moments when I'm buried in mundane work that I am moving forward. As much as time often feels like it's slowed to a halt in situations like these, you are still progressing and (hopefully) making positive changes. Many times those changes are occurring beneath the surface and are not obvious when things are looked at without consideration for what's happening on the inside.

I hope some of that made sense. I typically have trouble explaining my thoughts on Taoism and what it means to me. The Tao that can be explained is not the true Tao... or something. That's what I read anyway.

Hey, sleepscience,

Like Arcade, I too am a philosophical Taoist and not religious, in that respect. So, my "devotional" practice is simply living and realizing what I'm doing when I'm doing it. A sort of "active" meditation in that I observe my experiences -- e.g. emotions, actions, interactions, events, etc. -- acknowledge them disinterestedly (I'm not interested in holding onto them), and continually self-reflect. I try to, at least. I'm not always successful in accomplishing it, but, when I reflect, I let it be as it is and move on.

One misconception I think a lot of people have when I refer to being a Taoist is that I'm uncaring, or that I'm so "Zen", which isn't the case because I do care, I just don't dwell.

Elwood P. Dowd: "Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, 'In this world, Elwood, you must be' - she always called me Elwood - 'In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant.' Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

This is for Alexandre. We spoke in chat the other day and I didn't have the likn available to show him;

http://www.taowoods.org/quote/index.htm

Enjoy

BUMP This is for Jestor. Try it you"ll like it.

or anyone elso for that matter