How to Better Look After Newcomers?

Nami wrote: @Astera I wanted to do it in order so people reading it could easily see the lessons, so they don't have to come through it to find what they're looking for.

Yeah, I get that. Before I decided that I liked the set order best, I had considered doing it out of order and creating an "index" post that I would edit whenever I posted a new lesson, so that people could see what order I had posted things in. Maybe something like that could work if you wanted to choose your own order yet still preserve ease of reading?

You only have an hour after it's posted to edit it.

Happy 100 posts!!!!!!!!! Nami you're not stepping on toes, and most of us looking at Ip's on the base level are kinda used to them changing up and what not, to be honest I learn a ton from reading newer IP's because we all have different views.

Nami, don't forget that you can also ask for people to proofread or give you feedback on your journal posts if you'd like.

I did some with samthrift a few weeks ago and what I read closely matches what I wrote in mine. It is also ok to look at other journals and read what they said so you can compare. Be mindful, though, that you don't steal their words. For watts' I looked at a few other journals to compare and was not surprised that a lot of people struggled.

It's some heavy stuff!!

Nami wrote: @Astera I wanted to do it in order so people reading it could easily see the lessons, so they don't have to come through it to find what they're looking for.

Thats why I did my IP in order too

Astera wrote:

Nami wrote: @Astera I wanted to do it in order so people reading it could easily see the lessons, so they don't have to come through it to find what they're looking for.

Yeah, I get that. Before I decided that I liked the set order best, I had considered doing it out of order and creating an "index" post that I would edit whenever I posted a new lesson, so that people could see what order I had posted things in. Maybe something like that could work if you wanted to choose your own order yet still preserve ease of reading?

I have followed the order as presented if nothing more than I couldn't come up with any rational arguments to convince myself that I knew any better than what order it was already in, and though I poked and prodded a tad to see if there were a better way, just decided to settle into it and do what I could when I could do it.

Watts and Campbell are heavy...but also setup well for Lessons 3 & 4 too...and I imagine that having those background chunks done now helps me get that down-hill-slope feeling as the more "Jedi" specific stuff trends towards the back of the IP.

I wrote out my "understanding" of the Code in some personal notes before really getting started. As I reviewed those today to jumpstart that portion in Lesson 5, I could already see how incredibly different my current view and understanding of the Code is, having suffered through the brain-heavy side-effects of trying to make sense of Campbell and Watts. I can hardly see anything which remains in that early understanding now, and imagine I'll look back in a few months even and still see growth and development beyond what I could anticipate right now.

We all function differently in the end. I am a creature of habit and rule-following. For the life of me, I can hardly be expected to step out of line when order is already present in front of me. Maybe this is a weakness.

I digress.

I'd love to offer more direct Q&A and WTH(heck) kinda stuff if anyone else working through the IP suffers any moto-lags.

Brick wrote:

SamThrift wrote:
What if some of that burden were shifted more towards the Novice ranks?

Like, sure, interacting with Apprentices and Knights is certainly still important. But if I am struggling in the IP, it is often more useful to talk to others currently working through it together, at the same time. I for one generally understand new material better if I have to immediately turn around and explain it to someone else. When you grasp a concept well enough to teach that concept, it sticks with you better?
...

Put the onus on us Novice types to work together more directly, help new members get started on the IP, and work through it more as a team...I could benefit a lot from that sort of approach to it myself, and suppose as such, should simply start moving in that direction whether or not my lil idea here gains traction anyway...

Regarding this: what if we created a "Novice" group or an "IP" group just for people who are working their way through the IP? (And for people who'd like to help others with the IP.) This would be a great way to build a sense of camaraderie among Novices/new members. People could discuss difficulties/successes, vent when needed, and just generally support each other. I know that I was disappointed when I first joined and looked through the site's different groups, only to find that there weren't any that applied to me. I'd create a Novice/IP group myself if I knew how to create one!

Astera wrote:

Brick wrote:

SamThrift wrote:
What if some of that burden were shifted more towards the Novice ranks?

Like, sure, interacting with Apprentices and Knights is certainly still important. But if I am struggling in the IP, it is often more useful to talk to others currently working through it together, at the same time. I for one generally understand new material better if I have to immediately turn around and explain it to someone else. When you grasp a concept well enough to teach that concept, it sticks with you better?
...

Put the onus on us Novice types to work together more directly, help new members get started on the IP, and work through it more as a team...I could benefit a lot from that sort of approach to it myself, and suppose as such, should simply start moving in that direction whether or not my lil idea here gains traction anyway...

Regarding this: what if we created a "Novice" group or an "IP" group just for people who are working their way through the IP? (And for people who'd like to help others with the IP.) This would be a great way to build a sense of camaraderie among Novices/new members. People could discuss difficulties/successes, vent when needed, and just generally support each other. I know that I was disappointed when I first joined and looked through the site's different groups, only to find that there weren't any that applied to me. I'd create a Novice/IP group myself if I knew how to create one!

I'm still game! I know there is some way to actually make "groups" of some sorts...but as you point out, don't particularly know how to get about doing that?

Open call for instructions on how to make actual "groups" (i.e. the Military Jedi, group, which I just recently accidentally found)...with the idea of an "IP Study Group" mentality?

EDIT: For the record, if any of you knew my general approach to study, you would know that I have NEVER studied for anything, EVER! Entering my final semester on my Masters...and still have yet to study for a single thing the whole time...so trying to kick along the idea of a "Study Group" almost seems somewhat counter to the very center of my being. But it excites me here. :woohoo:

Sorry for the extended delay. I wanted to be as "unplugged" as possible while my mom was visiting, and was enjoying the break from anything-not-necessary so I stayed mostly offline for another few days.

I did write up quite a wall of text off and on during that time, however, and I'll endeavor to whittle it down somewhat after I take a good look at what else has been posted in this thread in the interim.

Short version: I have 26 years of online forum moderation/video game leadership (most recently in World of Warcraft, where I've served as a raiding guild leader for 12 years) as well as offline management experience. Therefore, my "how to better help newcomers" answers will be targeted more at the administrative level, rather than the emotional level. You can't make people feel a certain way, but you can ease the leadership burden and delegate to a large enough group that there are more people involved in working with newcomers, which will then help alleviate any feelings of being neglected.

I have a pretty direct style of communication, so my suggestions may come across as firm, "You need to do this," kind of statements if you read them that way. That is not my intent. Please know that I mean to offer these in the spirit of just throwing ideas out there that I've personally utilized these past decades, because I feel like I would be remiss if I just sat on all that experience. The ideas will either be of interest or not, and can be modified or ignored as you please.

Actually, I can shorten my post a lot because I just looked at the app and um...I can start and maybe stop there.

For real, serious, why are you asking new people if they have a criminal record, just so they can gain access to post on your Jediism forum? Holy cats. That's amazingly invasive. I'm stunned. Like jaw on the floor stunned. I just wanna be able to thank someone for a post but y'all wanna know if I've been to jail before I can do that?

I mean I get it if someone is going to actually have some fiduciary duties then cool, do a background check at that point and stuff, but, um...wow. I have a squeaky clean record and I'm still completely put off by that. The only people who've ever asked me that are my employers, because I did handle money at several jobs, so I can understand why they'd want to check. Otherwise? No. Like my best friends and I haven't even had that conversation. I'm seriously baffled, you guys. And what if I had been convicted of a crime at some point? Um...so what?

I mean, I'm not even keen on giving out my address and phone number to strangers on the internet, either (which, you know, you are at this point and I have no idea how secure your site is), and having battled internet stalkers that doxxed me and threatened me at home, I'm not in a hurry to repeat that process. But if your version of an icebreaker is, "Hey, been to jail?"...um...wow. If I was out with someone and they asked that, it would be a really short date. LOL

To my understanding, this is for the government records in Texas since we are a legal and registered non-profit organization. They need to keep track of how many members of the "church" exist.

vladucard wrote: To my understanding, this is for the government records in Texas since we are a legal and registered non-profit organization. They need to keep track of how many members of the "church" exist.

And for that they need to ask my criminal history? I'm posting on an internet forum, not babysitting children or handling money.

Right, I understand, but this is also a non-profit organization, it's not just a fan forum, it's legally a place of worship as well.

If you are concerned, feel free to reach out to one of the Knights and they will happily help you out since they may be able to explain it better than I can.

Right, so is every other church, and they're not asking general membership about their criminal history.

As I previously said, if you are clergy or an actual employee of the church they may do background checks, but they don't ask that kind of stuff of the people sitting in the pews.

The difference between here and the sort of church you're referencing is the fact that this is an online church, not a local community church. Go to a church in your neighborhood, people know people. They're gonna have an idea of your history. You may not like it, but people will find out and know that you robbed Joe Schmoe or what have you, and they'll talk, and before you know it, people see you and go "there's the Joe Schmoe robber." Regardless of if you've done your time or turned your life around.

Online that doesn't exist. Online, people can be who they want to be. We have children who come here unattended. At one point in time, in order to become a member, you had to publicly post your full name and date of birth. That question is the closest thing to neighborhood gossip that can possibly exist. Is a single question in a membership application going to stop those who want to cause harm? No, probably not; someone could easily lie. But at least the Temple can show there was an active attempt to protect her members.

Either way, you can still come here and participate without ever having answer it at all.

Not to take away at all from what Ava has said (which is right on), there is another way to look at this. Because in a sense, when you apply for membership, you *are* applying for a job.

Most physical churches distinguish between members and congregants, whether they say so or not. The subset of folks who show up for services on Sunday morning is congruent with -- but not equal to -- the subset of members. Membership in a real world church is something different (often involving an application of some kind, frequently including a promise to tithe) from simply showing up for a service. I found that out when I applied for a service position in one church only to discover that I wasn't a member of the church even though I had been attending and making friends there for months. No one talked about it, I guess they just assumed we would know.

It's not different here. You can come here daily, attend the services, read the sermons, take part in the discussions and educational programs as a guest. I think you can do the entire IP as a guest. But you can't go past the IP without becoming a member. It's a mandatory prerequisite for becoming an Initiate.

And that's how it should be. Becoming an Initiate is a step on the path toward becoming recognized as a Knight, or the path toward joining the Clergy. The Temple has a clear interest in knowing whether candidates for its Knights Corps or Clergy have history that could affect the candidate's ability to perform the duties of the position for which they may one day be considered, or history that could reflect badly on the Temple. Because the membership application is the only one we make people fill out, no matter how long they stick around or how far they progress, it makes sense to me to ask that question up front.

I guess I'm not being clear.

I'm not actually confused about why you think you're doing this. It's obvious that it's some kind of attempt at safety (for this kind of church, you'd be better off asking if people have programming backgrounds, because they could hack your site, but I digress). But people who come here with the intent to harm are going to lie in that field and unless you are running actual background checks you will be none the wiser. Meanwhile, you've just made anyone who's ever had a criminal conviction (even if it was years ago when they were young and stupid and got busted with drugs one time) feel uncomfortable and unwelcome.

It's also then obvious that you guys don't believe in a redemptive life arc for people, if you're concerned about something that they did in the past and have since fulfilled their societal obligation for. That's really disappointing.

The purpose of this thread is about newcomers not feeling welcome/supported/what have you. I'm saying, that's not a very welcoming sort of question. If you think it is, by all mean, please go to your local store and roll up on people and ask, "Hey, do you have a criminal record?" My guess is most of the looks you will get will be like this at best:


I mean, that's what I did when I looked at the application, and, as I've said, my record is squeaky clean. I'm cleared to sell securities and to work in schools, both jobs I've had in the past. I've been fingerprinted, DNA tested, drug-tested, you name it. I do anything crooked and law enforcement has the info in their databases to match me up with any evidence I leave behind.

But, Ava, I've never lived anywhere people would know what I did 10 years ago. I've lived in big urban areas all of my life and I've moved and my neighbors have moved. I'm used to people not being all up in my business in any way shape or form. I recognize that people from small towns have a different experience and of course everyone knows everything you did if you lived there your whole life, but we're moving away from that being the standard experience for people.

We're also moving away from this being an acceptable question to even ask on job applications, as more and more states start adopting "ban the box" regulations (like my home state of California just did ),. The "war on drugs," in particular, has left us with as many people with criminal records as college diplomas .

You all can all explain all you want, but my response will remain that it's invasive, in bad form, and doesn't protect you, anyway. If someone had a specific job within the temple that's sensitive, then, by all means, ask for a background check at that point if it's legal to do so. Otherwise, maybe it's better to let some people with redemptive life stores tell you those stories as they get comfortable on their own time?

And, no, we can't fully participate here without it. We're locked out of the Jediism forum unless we fill out the app, which is the forum we're arguably all here for.

*EDITED to add* Also, who can see that information? Clergy only, who are bound by clergy-parishioner privilege, or more? I suspect it's more people than that.

Asking for a criminal is not the same as judging someone for a criminal record.

Nami wrote: Asking for a criminal is not the same as judging someone for a criminal record.

Then why ask in the first place, if you aren't intending to do anything with the information?

Human nature is going to lend itself toward judging, as much as people may try hard not to. You can't un-know that about someone.

Asakura Shoji wrote:

Nami wrote: Asking for a criminal is not the same as judging someone for a criminal record.

Then why ask in the first place, if you aren't intending to do anything with the information?

Human nature is going to lend itself toward judging, as much as people may try hard not to. You can't un-know that about someone.

Its for legal reasons. Anyone who becomes a member can aspire to become a Knight, and as a Knight they are a representative for this place. The TotJO must know if their potential reps have done anything that could reflect badly on them.

Its also part of the teachings. A Jedi has Integrity, so they fess up to the mistakes of the past and grow from it.