RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Look, if this is what everyone wants, fine, I was just expressing my concerns and beliefs. However, I will not be calling anyone Bishop, Monsigner (sp), Rabbi or anything else for that matter. The whole purpose originally though of for using these ranks was for teaching purposes, and it already has seemed to go beyond that. In my eyes we are all on equal ground, regardless of how much time we put into this place. Not all of us have the same amount of time to put into it, if I could put in more I would, but I would not expect any extra recognition for it.

Chapter 7 of the Tao Te Ching (First book of Jediism) tells us:
Heaven and Earth last forever.
WHy do heaven and Earth last forever?
They are unborn,
So ever living.
The sage stays behind, thus he is ahead.
He is detached, thus at one with all.
Through selfless action, he attains fulfillment.

Meaning by not seeking recognition for action, doing it selflessly you become more fulfilled.

In addition, Chapter 19 says:
Give up sainthood, renounce wisdom,
And it will be a hundred times better for everyone.
Give up kindness, renounce morality,
And men will rediscover filial piety and love.
Give up ingenuity, renounce profit,
And badits and thieves will disappear.
These three are outward forms alone; they are not sufficient in themnselves.
It is more important
To see the simplicity,
To realize one's true nature,
To cast off selfishness
And temper desire.

Meaning by casting away things that make us seem better than others in one way or another, people will stop looking to you to make their lives better, and focus on making thier lives better on their own.

Yes, I am in the military, and yes we use ranks, but they are not so much for a measure of knowledge or experience, but more for authority reasons than anything else. Yes I hold rank an put lots of time into defending our country, but I do not expect anyone here to call me Sargeant, nor do I expect special recognition. When I speak about my military experience, it is to express things that have happened that I learned from, to hopefully help others learn from as well, or to tell a funny story.

DK

My dear friend, When it comes to the use of titles when addressing other's I use the following creedo and I think it will work for you as well: Call me what you would want to be called were you me.

I don't think you can really go wrong in it's use

Are you sure, caue being in the Military, has given me a pennant for making up names to either correlate with last names, or something stupid someone has done, to remind them of it forever. Like since you have White in your name, I'd probably call you whitey, not out of anything racial, its just short and catchy. Somehow I haven't got any nicknames that have stuck though, I must be boring.

DK

That was my Nickname throughout Junior High and High school actually.

See how that works.

I did however after looking up Clergy Titles in google, find that Cleric is used throughout pretty much all religions, as any member of the Clergy, so I would have no qualms about that one. For example Ranks or designations whatever you'd like to call them could go as such:

Non Clergy --- Clergy
Master Jedi - Master Jedi Cleric
Sr. Jedi Knight - Sr. Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Sr. Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Knight - Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Apprentice - Jedi Cleric Apprentice
Jedi Initiate - Jedi Cleric Initiate (though I don't believe someone should be ordained until they are atleast an apprentice)

It sounds more universal, and takes more from a multitude of religions than a few specific ones, and also sounds more like something that would come from Jediism. Any thoughts?

DK

I think the use of only one title would confuse some. Because each one carries with it different responsibilities that are indeed seperate from those of one's Jedi designation.

And just to add to that, the current designation system is more easily accepted by those who are non-Jedi. Cleric sounds like something from the middle ages or a really good movie (i.e. Equilibrium). Whereas Minister or Reverend already has a good track record. Does that make sense?

(On a personal Level, Love the name though. Cleric does indeed sound like something from a Jedi Church. Perhaps we can expand upon that?)

That's why I used the words Jedi Cleric in the ceremony outlines we have been working on. It just \"fit\".

True, the movie Equilibrium was one of the best action movies in my eyes, I didn't get the name from it. Like I said I googled Clergy titles, and read through it, and saw that Cleric was a universal name for a clergy person. I agree with Br. Justice, it does just seem to fit, and it has a nice ring too it, if I might add. I'm unsure how it would confuse people, there would still be a distict difference in the title of Clergy members and non, but the rankings themselves would still be present, I think it would actually be less confusing that way, than having an entirely different \"ranking\" structure for the clergy. Plus, it helps to keep everyone intertwined by using much of the same terminology, as opposed to setting themselves completely outside of normal Jedi. As you know Br. Tom, I'm not concerned about how much acceptance we get from non-Jedi, especially since they don't take us seriously anyways. So why conform to thier standards and practices, this way, once we finally are accepted, we will be more of a stand alone entity. Besides, most people don't know what \"Imam\" stands for, I admittidly was one of them, till recently, but it is still used in Islam. They didn't care what outsiders thought of thier names and titles, I don't believe we should either.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

True, the movie Equilibrium was one of the best action movies in my eyes, I didn't get the name from it. Like I said I googled Clergy titles, and read through it, and saw that Cleric was a universal name for a clergy person. I agree with Br. Justice, it does just seem to fit, and it has a nice ring too it, if I might add. I'm unsure how it would confuse people, there would still be a distict difference in the title of Clergy members and non, but the rankings themselves would still be present, I think it would actually be less confusing that way, than having an entirely different \"ranking\" structure for the clergy. Plus, it helps to keep everyone intertwined by using much of the same terminology, as opposed to setting themselves completely outside of normal Jedi. As you know Br. Tom, I'm not concerned about how much acceptance we get from non-Jedi, especially since they don't take us seriously anyways. So why conform to thier standards and practices, this way, once we finally are accepted, we will be more of a stand alone entity. Besides, most people don't know what \"Imam\" stands for, I admittidly was one of them, till recently, but it is still used in Islam. They didn't care what outsiders thought of thier names and titles, I don't believe we should either.

DK

Well, first things first, it would be somewhat confusing because there is then no real distinction between clergy with more and less responsibility as such. and because the Jedi designation does not denote those responsibilites (and can't because they are seperate) it would be difficult to discern who is what regarding clergy.

Second, With regard to how we are viewed by others, I understand your feelings. However, in order to continue this movement and church, we need to consider how to best reach others. and we cannot do that with an \"I don't care what you think\" attitude.

You could for the clergy, concerning the use of Cleric, drop the Jedi part.

So for example you would have a Cleric Apprentice instead of a Jedi Apprentice and so on.

Whiteknight wrote:

You could for the clergy, concerning the use of Cleric, drop the Jedi part.

So for example you would have a Cleric Apprentice instead of a Jedi Apprentice and so on.

That would make it awefully difficult to put down. \"Cleric apprentice Jedi Apprentice Yurnamehere?\" thats a mouthfull

Of course there would be a difference with which clergy person had more responsibility and such, which would go along with their rank as well. Besides, I though the point of separete designators for Clergy was to Identify them as people who are Clergy, not saying I'm a higher clergy than this guy, because I do more clergy related things than he/she does. If anything it should be so people would know who to contact for counseling and possible ceremonies and such.

As far as reaching others, I agree it needs to be accesible, but this isn't winning souls. All we need to do is get the word out, so people can come here for themselves to see if they like it. If they do, when they get into it, it wouldn't be hard to discern who was clergy and who wasn't. People who are typically looking for a different religion or what not, are not looking for a carbon copy, they are looking for something completely separate, something Jedi. Besides, all clergy are going to be performing pretty much the same functions, except for maybe senior clergy teaching junior clergy methods and such. And if there are certain functions like only certain ceremonies that only senior clergy can reside over. I'd really like if we got some more insight on this, than just yours and mine.

DK

Of course there would be a difference with which clergy person had more responsibility and such, which would go along with their rank as well. Besides, I though the point of separete designators for Clergy was to Identify them as people who are Clergy, not saying I'm a higher clergy than this guy, because I do more clergy related things than he/she does. If anything it should be so people would know who to contact for counseling and possible ceremonies and such.

As far as reaching others, I agree it needs to be accesible, but this isn't winning souls. All we need to do is get the word out, so people can come here for themselves to see if they like it. If they do, when they get into it, it wouldn't be hard to discern who was clergy and who wasn't. People who are typically looking for a different religion or what not, are not looking for a carbon copy, they are looking for something completely separate, something Jedi. Besides, all clergy are going to be performing pretty much the same functions, except for maybe senior clergy teaching junior clergy methods and such. And if there are certain functions like only certain ceremonies that only senior clergy can reside over. I'd really like if we got some more insight on this, than just yours and mine.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Of course there would be a difference with which clergy person had more responsibility and such, which would go along with their rank as well. Besides, I though the point of separete designators for Clergy was to Identify them as people who are Clergy, not saying I'm a higher clergy than this guy, because I do more clergy related things than he/she does. If anything it should be so people would know who to contact for counseling and possible ceremonies and such.

As far as reaching others, I agree it needs to be accesible, but this isn't winning souls. All we need to do is get the word out, so people can come here for themselves to see if they like it. If they do, when they get into it, it wouldn't be hard to discern who was clergy and who wasn't. People who are typically looking for a different religion or what not, are not looking for a carbon copy, they are looking for something completely separate, something Jedi. Besides, all clergy are going to be performing pretty much the same functions, except for maybe senior clergy teaching junior clergy methods and such. And if there are certain functions like only certain ceremonies that only senior clergy can reside over. I'd really like if we got some more insight on this, than just yours and mine.

DK

Tired of hearing from me Huh? lol.

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Of course there would be a difference with which clergy person had more responsibility and such, which would go along with their rank as well. Besides, I though the point of separete designators for Clergy was to Identify them as people who are Clergy, not saying I'm a higher clergy than this guy, because I do more clergy related things than he/she does. If anything it should be so people would know who to contact for counseling and possible ceremonies and such.

As far as reaching others, I agree it needs to be accesible, but this isn't winning souls. All we need to do is get the word out, so people can come here for themselves to see if they like it. If they do, when they get into it, it wouldn't be hard to discern who was clergy and who wasn't. People who are typically looking for a different religion or what not, are not looking for a carbon copy, they are looking for something completely separate, something Jedi. Besides, all clergy are going to be performing pretty much the same functions, except for maybe senior clergy teaching junior clergy methods and such. And if there are certain functions like only certain ceremonies that only senior clergy can reside over. I'd really like if we got some more insight on this, than just yours and mine.

DK

You can't possibly see this church as a carbon copy of any other. can you?

Not exactly no, but there are things that are, which is why we should strive to get away from those, and do our own thing, thats how Jediism basically started, atleast for me.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Not exactly no, but there are things that are, which is why we should strive to get away from those, and do our own thing, thats how Jediism basically started, atleast for me.

DK

Is it that you find issue with it being borrowed from Christianity?

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Not exactly no, but there are things that are, which is why we should strive to get away from those, and do our own thing, thats how Jediism basically started, atleast for me.

DK

I value your opinion - what do you suggest?

Br. John

I personally do not find it difficult to accept and respect the clerical titles. These are titles to which I can fully relate (due to their duties, responsabilities, carisma, vocation). For me the essential word is vocation. They certainly are not levels of for example military command which have to fulfilled or not. We are not present to execute duties, but are ther to live and let live. They are a simultaneous calling (from the Force) and response (from a Jedi), involving the perons faith, hopes, body, spirit, mind, visions and hopes. It is something very personal and at the same time administrative. If someone saw this as being destructive to the unity, then that observer is missing out the fact that this human potential to profile him/herself can be done in any situation. Superiority traits can be found amongst those in the most basic of social occupations.

The titles I am talking about are Rev., Bishop and Arch-Bishop.