Physical TOTJO Temple in Texas Project

Revan Falton wrote: Kohadre, very wise words, and sound advice. My question those is this. If Totjo is as open and accepting as you say it is (and I agree whole heartedly), what would building a physical location would make the congregation splinter off? If the same doctrine etc is observed and put in place in the physical Temple as it is here, where would the need arise to leave, build a new Temple with different views? The reason for the off breaks of those religions were due to them not accepting others and putting such strict rules etc upon its congregation etc. Would like to hear your thoughts on that.

Thank you Revan

To answer your questions,

If the same doctrine, creed, etc that is observed here at the online TOTJO temple would be put in place at a physical temple, with that physical temple continuing the customs of acceptance and openess where diversity is concerned, there would undoubtly be a great length of time in which the essence of the TOTJO community would be preserved.

But eventually, be it a decade or a century, or perhaps even a millennia down the line, inevitable things will happen. There will be a leader or person of influence appointed to a position within the temple who would have the authority to affect certain change. Eventually, there will be a particular leader or person of influence who wants to change certain aspects of the temple based on their, or the congregations desires. Once things start to change, there will be the inevitable rifts within the congregation that lead to events described in my previous post. Or, there could be some kind of corruption within the temple itself, which could cause a similar event.

Even with an acceptance of diversity, there may be members of the congregation who want things to be "their way". They will have some kind of controlling element within their personality, that will not tolerate anything less than "their way" being followed. These particular individuals would eventually either effect their viewpoints as the new standard of the temple, or start a new temple of their own, promoting their particular version of Jediism.

There are many other examples I could give, but I hope the ones mentioned above answer your question.

It would seem that the Chicago area also holds the most Jedi. But, I'll keep my opinion that Texas would be fine too due to there being 5 members, only outnumbered by one in Illinois. However, taking Kit's suggestion, Chicago would also be fun!

As a resident of Chicago, I would gladly welcome the building of a physical location. In fact with my offline group of 15 regularly active members,(Chicago Jedi), we are in the process of becoming a non-profit. That will be one step on our way to something physical.

If what makes sense for right now is the construction of a physical building and the expansion of our membership then that is what we ought to do. Worrying about a future that is not here yet, and may indeed never come to pass, won't do us any good right now.

Let's assume that we do create something great and that in time it does indeed start breaking down (through separation or corruption etc), well that is for Jedi of that time to contend with, it won't change any of the Good we are able to do now will it?

If at some other now what is needed is for our Temple to separate itself then that's what our Temple will do, it isn't like such things haven't already happened in the wider Jedi community, including at our Temple. If we wish to invest in the future to try and prevent the worst parts of any "split" then there are steps we can do also, by creating writings and book and such (which will doubtless be done in due course) to address the points that might be brought up.

If every organisation got hung up on what "might" happen in its future with regards to abandoning the original virtues, then every organisation ought to just stop all its functioning right now.

Worrying about a future that is not here yet, and may indeed never come to pass, won't do us any good right now.

Sorry for the offtopic, but someone's going to have to explain to me how not worrying about the future is a good thing (or worrying is NOT a good thing). Sure it sounds cool, but in real life, I am under the impression that the people who don't think about the future are the criminals, the polluters, the warmongers, the politicians, etc....

Thinking and worrying are rather different.

never thought of it this way, how do they differ?

I was googling to find a snappy definition, I came across this weird blog but I basically agree with how they put it here, however tortured the phrasing:

Thinking going by its definition has mainly two objectives. 1. To generate ideas or find solutions to existing problems, and 2. to formulate the generated ideas or solutions into plans or strategies that can be implemented. Combining these two objectives, the essence of thinking is to birth new ideas or find solutions to existing problems and converting the ideas generated or solutions found into workable plans. This is the sole essence of thinking; anything short of these two is worrying. If after thinking you are unable to draw up a plan of action based on the ideas or solutions you generated, then you've just finished worrying and have not been thinking.

THINKING vs WORRYING

"Worry is like rocking a chair it gives you something to do but won't take you anywhere." Unknown

Worrying is "thinking" aimlessly; not having a definite purpose or objective in mind. It's focusing on a problem and all its negative attributes rather than focusing on possible solutions.

http://reflectionsinverse.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/when-thinking-becomes-worrying-how-to.html

ren wrote:

Worrying about a future that is not here yet, and may indeed never come to pass, won't do us any good right now.

Sorry for the offtopic, but someone's going to have to explain to me how not worrying about the future is a good thing (or worrying is NOT a good thing). Sure it sounds cool, but in real life, I am under the impression that the people who don't think about the future are the criminals, the polluters, the warmongers, the politicians, etc....

I was very careful to state:

If we wish to invest in the future to try and prevent the worst parts of any "split" then there are steps we can do also, by creating writings and book and such (which will doubtless be done in due course) to address the points that might be brought up.

Because as you rightly point out one cannot ignore the direction that one goes in, so steps can be taken to minimise future damages, but that shouldn't be done at the expense of the Now.

Basic Teaching 3 wrote: 3. Jedi are aware of the future impacts of action and inaction and of the influence of the past, but live in and focus on the Now. We let ourselves flow like water through the events around us. We embrace the ever changing and fluid world, adapting and changing as it does.

The "thinking" definition seems rather limited tzb. There is imo far more thinking to do than problem solving. I guess when I use "worry" i mean, "think about something i care about being harmed in some way", whilst to me thinking could be "I wonder what the universe is made out of" sort of thing.

Akkarin I guess i meant "worry" in a stronger, more general way, not specific to anypotential splits (i don't think there's a way to predict/prevent that to be honest). But at the same time, I think people tend to make rash decisions... I can certainly think of a few instances since I resigned from my offices here where I thought things hadn't been thought through properly...

I guess I am "worried" about the whole "think in the now" train of thought. There is no point in this. What happens now is necessarily the result of the past, and this can't be changed. Whilst spending your "now" time thinking about what will happen in the future means you base your near-future actions on what its future implications will be (based on lessons from the past). Sure that means you are waisting time that could be spent doing other things right now.... But I just don't see a point in doing this without a particular future goal to reach. The value of any action now is what it actually achieves later, and not the intention behind it.

Revan Falton wrote: If the same doctrine etc is observed and put in place in the physical Temple as it is here, where would the need arise to leave, build a new Temple with different views?

This may be misrepresenting Kohadre horribly, and if so I apologize, but I think I can sum up the point being made with a simple question. Once this physical Temple is built, who gets a key to the door?

Inevitably, someone or some specific people will have more control or influence over the building itself. While it does not have to result in corruption, it very easily could. As a member, am I allowed to sleep there if I am homeless? Who decides this? Who is responsible for the electric bill? If I am, do I get to decide if we run the air conditioning or not? If I want to use a room as a gym and another wants to use it as a library, who decides which use is more "Jedi"? If I choose to continue to visit this online Temple exclusively, does that make me less "Jedi" than the those who actually visit the physical Temple? Will those Jedi think less of me for not going there?

The advantage of this virtual space online is that major changes or minor adjustments are both more feasible and less permanent. People can come and go as they please without a gatekeeper locking the doors. Having internet access is all that is required to be here, and it puts every Jedi here on more equal footing. There are certainly those here who are responsible for establishing, maintaining, and paying for this site who might have some greater measure of control or privilege, but to this point they have proven themselves to be worthy of my trust and they have my full confidence that they have the best interest of TOTJO in mind.

I am not opposed to a physical Temple, but I personally believe we already share a planet as a place of worship and gathering, and far too many of us take our natural environment as it is for granted.

ren wrote: The "thinking" definition seems rather limited tzb. There is imo far more thinking to do than problem solving.

Yes agreed, really. The useful definition there was of worry... worry is always about something (in the way they characterise thinking as about a problem), but the distinction for me is that worry is useless, thinking is useful. Discretion and focus are key factors in avoiding worry and achieving meaningful thought, in this context of tackling problems.

ren wrote: I guess when I use "worry" i mean, "think about something i care about being harmed in some way", whilst to me thinking could be "I wonder what the universe is made out of" sort of thing.

Sounds like part of what I'd define as care. I think you can care about something and both worry or think about it... the former is useless, the latter useful.

Worry by many definitions (evidently not the one you subscribe to) is rather a worthless process of filling one's time with abstract thoughts, arbitrary scenarios the rehearsing of which adds little or nothing to one's readiness to tackle them. Worry only serves to muddy the waters, and is rooted in anxiety rather than readiness or the potential to act. Another way of looking at it is worry is chaotic where thought/care is focused. One can care about something and worry about it... but the worry will make the thinking one does because they care less focused and effective.

Yeah OK, it's hard not to get convoluted when you're talking about this

ren wrote: The "thinking" definition seems rather limited tzb. There is imo far more thinking to do than problem solving. I guess when I use "worry" i mean, "think about something i care about being harmed in some way", whilst to me thinking could be "I wonder what the universe is made out of" sort of thing.

How about concern?

I'm sorry to do this, and it could break down to language differences, but generally, "worry" is seen as a fear of future results/actions... Concern/consideration is, to me, more what you are meaning......

Akkarin I guess i meant "worry" in a stronger, more general way, not specific to anypotential splits (i don't think there's a way to predict/prevent that to be honest). But at the same time, I think people tend to make rash decisions... I can certainly think of a few instances since I resigned from my offices here where I thought things hadn't been thought through properly...

Sure...

And looking back, we can too, andcee will.learn from those decisions ...

People do make rash decisions, and any decision made without all information will seem rash...

Seriously, I think your resignation was rash, and done in haste....

Looking back, when we have more information, we can say that of almost anything...

But, when you think you know all you can, or a decision is needed (or felt to be needed) NOW, then we make our decisions, and adjust as necessary...

I guess I am "worried" about the whole "think in the now" train of thought. There is no point in this. What happens now is necessarily the result of the past, and this can't be changed. Whilst spending your "now" time thinking about what will happen in the future means you base your near-future actions on what its future implications will be (based on lessons from the past). Sure that means you are waisting time that could be spent doing other things right now.... But I just don't see a point in doing this without a particular future goal to reach. The value of any action now is what it actually achieves later, and not the intention behind it.

You can't "think" anywhere BUT the now, its where you are...

We can consider the past, of course...

We can consider the possible future(s)...

But a decision can only be made in the NOW....

You will make a decision NOW to steer toward the (one of an infinite number of) future, by basing it on past events, and current knowledge...

Right?

Kohadre, I think that explained things rather well. Thank you. So if in fact if the teachings etc remain intact and implemented in towards the physical Temple (which I see no reason why not) it will thrive. For how long? I don't know. All things man made comes to an add. All things as a life, or for my fellow business majors, a product lifestyle. I am pretty much on the same page with Akkarin. If we constantly focus on the what ifs, nothing will get done. We have to do the best we can with what we have done, and what we can accomplish. Whatever our short comings are, that we are not able to tend to before our passing, the future generation will have to tend to it. That does not mean to not be mindful of possible problems, and to throw our future generation into chaos. It is a very delicate balance. If it is the will of the Force that the Jedi movement dies within a decade, two decades, hundred years, two hundred, a thousand. So be it.

Senan, I think you are thinking way to far ahead and looking at a tremendous amount of problems that could arise. You could very well add in there, a fire, burglary, earthquake, alien invasion, etc. Is being prepared a good thing? Of course it is. However, being prepared is only a bad thing is when it is over used and halts progress. However I will try to list solutions or my opinions to those possible problems.

Yes, possibly, there could be a leader that would take us astray. However i think if that happened, the council mbersnwould probably step in and and fill the void until a new leader is in place.

Homeless people? Don't know. I view this as one of those unfounded fears or worry. Would also depend upon what the main purpose of the Temple is, and what kind of facilities will be implemented upon its creations. Some people have listed schools, library, hospital, orphanage, etc. Pardon the term, it is rather old, and I am probably paraphrasing, but that is like putting the cart in front of the horse. It would I guess be decided before its built what the purpose, etc of the Temple will be, and if it will have any other uses implemented besides just for enlightenment / sermons. I guess maybe it would be the Council that would decide the use(s), with possibly the knights input? Maybe a combination of all groups, no idea.

Electric bill? Guess that would be another decision the council etc would have to make.

Gym vs Library. Again, depends upon if there will be multiple purposes for the location or not. I'd just be happy with a physical location for weekly sermons and fellowships. However if there is a need for these other purposes built inside the Temple, then by all means.

Less of a Jedi? No, I do not believe it would. The purpose of the Temple is for fellowship etc, and enlightenment. Obviously if this was built, the council would not expect all to pack up, and leave for the first Temple. We do what we can do. If a person feels they are more less of a Jedi for it, them that sounds like an inner problem with something else inside them. I'd foresee the use of this website, for a long time, even after the Temple is built. Maybe even after many are built. Again. A very slow progress. (Stating many Temples because at least my view of it would be, similar to how the Mormons have things set up for them. They have a grand Temple in a certain state. [Utah I believe] The temple there is for special purposes [forgive any ignorance, as I only know a little of the Mormon faith], and then they have other temples, a lot smaller inside scattered across cities, states, possibly countries, an. Those smaller ones are for fellowship and worship only.)

ren wrote: never thought of it this way, how do they differ?

Worry is meditation on the potentially non-existent negative.

I think I am misusing the word now lol...

I have to disagree with you here steamboat, I think worry, even in the sense others use it, may be excessive, but not ncessarily negative. the potentially non-existent is potentially existent, and the potentially negative is potentially positive. I'm sure the US south worried about northern policies regarding slavery, but it wasn't about non-existent possibilities, and a negative for some was a positive for others...

But I get the overall point about "worry".

People do make rash decisions, and any decision made without all information will seem rash...

Seriously, I think your resignation was rash, and done in haste....

Looking back, when we have more information, we can say that of almost anything...

I think it's unfair of us to be regretful of past decisions, because, well, they seemed right at the time, and surely, doing what seems right is better than doing something that seems wrong... You can be critical of what led you to believe something to be right though imo (such as your own thought processes, incorrect or inadequate info, etc).
My resignation had been on my mind for some time and the reasons that led me to it are still relevant today. Sure there was a tipping point, and the smear campaign certainly wasn't very nice... I still help out when I feel like it, you guys can deal with all the complaints and conspiracy theories, and people not doing stuff properly, and the people who upgrade the forum, etc :silly:

You can't "think" anywhere BUT the now, its where you are...

We can consider the past, of course...

We can consider the possible future(s)...

But a decision can only be made in the NOW....

You will make a decision NOW to steer toward the (one of an infinite number of) future, by basing it on past events, and current knowledge...

Right?

, HmmI would agree that obviously the thinking is happening as it happens, and if i also talk about it the same time, I will use the word "now"... But imo the mind shouldn't think about the things that are now, but about the things that will be, in order to figure out what should be done now, using lessons learned from the past.
To give a movie reference, I think qi-gon's "focus" lesson is particularly distasteful. Instead of dealing with things aimlessly as they came, thinking, seing the bigger picture would have revealed the darker forces at work...

ren wrote:

People do make rash decisions, and any decision made without all information will seem rash...

Seriously, I think your resignation was rash, and done in haste....

Looking back, when we have more information, we can say that of almost anything...

I think it's unfair of us to be regretful of past decisions, because, well, they seemed right at the time, and surely, doing what seems right is better than doing something that seems wrong... You can be critical of what led you to believe something to be right though imo (such as your own thought processes, incorrect or inadequate info, etc).
My resignation had been on my mind for some time and the reasons that led me to it are still relevant today. Sure there was a tipping point, and the smear campaign certainly wasn't very nice... I still help out when I feel like it, you guys can deal with all the complaints and conspiracy theories, and people not doing stuff properly, and the people who upgrade the forum, etc :silly:

It may have been a while in coming, but it hapens to us all, lol....

Anyway, I didnt say anything about regret, only (saying in previous conversations as well) that past is good for examination and to provide us with info, but decisions are now....

Is that why you resigned? Tired of fixing my screwups, :lol:....

You can't "think" anywhere BUT the now, its where you are...

We can consider the past, of course...

We can consider the possible future(s)...

But a decision can only be made in the NOW....

You will make a decision NOW to steer toward the (one of an infinite number of) future, by basing it on past events, and current knowledge...

Right?

, HmmI would agree that obviously the thinking is happening as it happens, and if i also talk about it the same time, I will use the word "now"... But imo the mind shouldn't think about the things that are now, but about the things that will be, in order to figure out what should be done now, using lessons learned from the past.
To give a movie reference, I think qi-gon's "focus" lesson is particularly distasteful. Instead of dealing with things aimlessly as they came, thinking, seing the bigger picture would have revealed the darker forces at work...

NOW has to be considered because things are different than they were then....

Not to mention the desired results may be different as well....

In the NOW is the only time that all of that matters....

Maybe we are circling around each other, lol.. :lol:...

Jestor wrote: Is that why you resigned? Tired of fixing my screwups, :lol:....[/color]

Well yes of course lol. I also took the time to create all those "Jestorisafaggot" accounts and would break the app at least once a day just to show you how i truly felt about it :silly:

LOL!!!!

I think we should all just take a step back and consider what a temple means to us... here's one possible rendition:

So there are just too many pages so I wanted to redirect a bit. What exactly would the TOTJO temple be teaching? What will be the requirements of said teachers?