New Knighting Procedure

Connor L. wrote: ... a step towards lessening the power of the Council to make day-to-day decisions...

Actually this needs to be strengthened not lessened. They are virtually nonfunctional now. Moving this power is not fixing anything. Its putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.

Good. They should be barely functional. Give the power to the people. The Council’s sole job should be to manage law and finances. The Knights should run the site. That’s my opinion.

We shall see how this goes

I have hope

I am optimistic about the delegation...spreading that power I hope creates that space to allow people with held positions the opportunity to interact with community as their own unique person, rather than the duty of responsibilty they hold with office.

There's a whole bunch of goodness going on behind the scene (enough to consider it part time status for volunteering) and the critical nature of people burning out is a real challenge to mitigate when responsibility is clutched too tight.

I'm also hoping this fosters teamwork and strengthens the community.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Connor L. wrote: ... a step towards lessening the power of the Council to make day-to-day decisions...

Actually this needs to be strengthened not lessened. They are virtually nonfunctional now. Moving this power is not fixing anything. Its putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.

The Knights corps are a wide and diverse group of individuals, stating that granting this authority (something the Knights have worked on getting for years now) is turning the process Into a popularity contest is making the assumption the majority of Knights all think alike & we need our egos stroked, we don't...

I trust our Knights much more with this process now than I do with the council after everything that's went down in the last couple of months in all honesty. We have some outstanding individuals serving this Temple, i'm optimistic...

I have less familiarity with the council than i do with most of the Knights. That itself may be point in favor of the new system. I would trust SOME of Knights to vote for someone they disliked if that person had done the work, but definitely not all: ive been here too long, lol, and i certainly wouldnt want to put very many of them in the position to vote against a friend. You want to be the vote that shoots down a friend? Ready to deal with the feeligs of betrayal from someone you care about? Its so much easier to just vote “yes” lol i mean “such and such” is a nice person anyway and Im sure s/he will mature in time....
Yes i believe everyone will promise at the gate to be very fair and objective, lol, as all people always believe themselves basicaly fair and objective.

OB1, this is true no matter who is in the decision seat.

With great power comes great responsibility and all that.

I wonder what Knights will do if said person does NOT mature.

I'd be interested to see the solution

OB1, I'm curious if you have any ideas for improving the system. The Knights, I'm sure, would love to hear your contributory ideas.

OB1Shinobi wrote: I have less familiarity with the council than i do with most of the Knights. That itself may be point in favor of the new system. I would trust SOME of Knights to vote for someone they disliked if that person had done the work, but definitely not all: ive been here too long, lol, and i certainly wouldnt want to put very many of them in the position to vote against a friend. You want to be the vote that shoots down a friend? Ready to deal with the feeligs of betrayal from someone you care about? Its so much easier to just vote “yes” lol i mean “such and such” is a nice person anyway and Im sure s/he will mature in time....
Yes i believe everyone will promise at the gate to be very fair and objective, lol, as all people always believe themselves basicaly fair and objective.

That's a valid point, brother. I think, for at least my effort, me and other Knights vested in the welfare of the Temple can bring up those hard questions about continued commitment and service to the community. For me personally, I wanna see more people step up to serve because workloads here can stink at times. Knighthood shouldn't queue the credits rolling and the audience applauding. I can only hope we are firm, fair and consistent with voting, but I firmly accept those difficult conversations should be held amongst each voting authority.

Rosalyn: you are right. I suspect this is as good of a solution as is going to be had atm. Im sorry to be negative.

Connor: you already said it; objective sandards. A MUCH more difficult road, but the right one, imo.

What does it really mean to be a Knight? How do you train it, how do you test for it?
Theres no reason a general training protocol cant be adapted to specific individuals as circumstances require. I would have more confidence that people could recognize where and how to adapt the regimen to the applicant than i would that people are going to vote the truth under the shadow of their personal relationships....or resentments.

Connor L. wrote: Good. They should be barely functional. Give the power to the people. The Council’s sole job should be to manage law and finances. The Knights should run the site. That’s my opinion.

Really? Barely functional? Why would you say something like that? Why would you want to see an organizational body of any sort "barely functional". I would think you want to see them instead extremely functional in their capacity to lead what it is they are supposed to lead. This has been the problem with council in the past. Lack of accountability and lack of clear leadership leading to lack of vision and progress forward. Now this authority given to the Knights will compound that without a clear leadership structure to guide a vision for the knighting of new Knights. A few bullet points on a post board will not solve this issue. There needs to be a much greater structure than what is being suggested here or this will fail.

OB1 we have tried such a thing. In fact, that is why Adiv came about. The lessons which qualify for Adiv are not standardized. The Edu Admin was not able to standardize the lessons Im not sure why. But the general feeling was a lack of trust.

We shall see what the Knights can come up with without white and gold oversight. Maybe they will do what we have been trying to do for years.

I'll certainly support any effort

One thing I like about this is with the greater voice of Knights, it also allows for the Knights to set a standard, even if it's informal. The discussion of a popularity contest also provides a good context with how this person might be able to function as a member of the group that are the Knights. If someone is combative without reason and would reflect poorly on the Knight cadre, it would allow the Knights a chance to offer corrective advice in a more direct format. It would also allow for better peer moderation. as because Knights are more involved and informal personality standards will grow (and really all that boils down to would probably be "would this person represent TOTJO and the rank well, and would they be a good teacher for apprentices?") it would also mark a level for current Knights to adhere to in a more open setting, not to imply there isn't something already there, this just makes it a tad more transparent.

Edit: Just because I want to roll this out on popularity contests and the like, there's a level of tact that I personally feel is important in a Knight. There's a difference between telling it how it is and finding the best way to communicate to a person so they understand the issue. There's a change in receptiveness, tone of discussion, and overall your impact as a teacher or even a person debating an idea when you learn to use tact in order to convey your point. The associated value of "I tell it like it is" roughly correlates to "I'm going to talk at you until I'm done talking." If you can't find ways to communicate in such a way that you don't alienate people, you probably shouldn't be in a place in which people come to you for guidance.

Personally I just want to finish the next stepping stone of the path that I started six years ago and that is achieving Knighthood here. I don't care about getting power and playing popularity contests. I will punch you in the face with the truth whether I like you or not. I cannot say I'm thrilled to be taking on an Apprentice as I've had issues with that in the past with other things. I started here with a goal in mind, a vision of what I wanted for myself. That vision has remained mostly the same over time but it has also adapted to who and what I am. I'm not going to kiss ass to get knighted but I really don't feel that I have to. There are people here who I trust and that is not something I give easily or to very many. That is good enough for me.

I say it because that's what I believe.

I believe the Council should not be a leadership group, but a quiet, service-based group. The Knights are the leaders, and it is their job to provide the way forward. The Council is a group OF KNIGHTS whose job, in my opinion, is to fulfill administrative roles on this site. And, that's it.

File the paperwork.
Pay the bills.
Vote on the mundane stuff.

The Knights (of which allllll Councillors are, by the way) should, as a group, be the ones leading the site. The Face of the Order. So to speak.

OB1, the problem is that not every Jedi needs to learn the same lessons before becoming a Knight.

We HAVE standardized the process in a lot of ways. The IP is the same for everybody. You learn what you need to KNOW about being a Jedi. Then, the Apprenticeship is learning how to apply those ideas in personalized lessons.

I am brainstorming because I am an ideas guy. I LOVE ideas. So, now my brain is on it...

Perhaps, you could say that each Apprentice will get a set of 15 lessons (let's just say), with the Training Master's discretion to add lessons if need be.

Then, the lessons could be either taken from a bank of established lessons that are accredited by the Knights via a majority vote OR a NEW lesson crafted for the student that could be approved by the Education Admin and then added to the bank via a majority vote from the Knights.

Once the lessons are completed to the satisfaction of the TM, they would send the lessons completed to the Knights to be looked over. If the lessons are completed, then the Knights vote majority yay. Then, the interview happens. Then, it's a Knighthood.

Thoughts on that, OB1? Here, the power of the Knights is really in what lessons are approved removing the need for Knights to vote on people. Also, it puts the onus on the TM to make good lessons that will be approved by two separate parties before being assigned. Then, the final vote is about "did they complete the lessons" rather than voting for the person. The TM, then, would have ultimate authority on the readiness of the apprentice. Perhaps with a Council or Knight override if the TM is being unfair to the apprentice.

My brain just does things. I dunno if that's what you had in mind or not.

Connor L. wrote:
The Knights (of which allllll Councillors are, by the way) should, as a group, be the ones leading the site. The Face of the Order. So to speak.

I think Ren would disagree with you.

This is great progress. Well done on taking this step. Take more.

Connor L. wrote: I say it because that's what I believe.

I believe the Council should not be a leadership group, but a quiet, service-based group. The Knights are the leaders, and it is their job to provide the way forward. The Council is a group OF KNIGHTS whose job, in my opinion, is to fulfill administrative roles on this site. And, that's it.

File the paperwork.
Pay the bills.
Vote on the mundane stuff.

The Knights (of which allllll Councillors are, by the way) should, as a group, be the ones leading the site. The Face of the Order. So to speak.

This, right here. All of it...

I don't really get why it's been such a struggle over the years to get this accomplished, If the Knights aren't to be trusted with this level of authority then what kind of message exactly are we putting forth? It's made getting Knighted, in all due honesty, rather pointless. You trust us to teach, but not lead? Seems hypocritical...

For once, camaraderie won't just be a catch phrase...

I agree whole heartedly. I'm looking forward to what this new procedure will bring. I hope good things