Do You Need Goals?

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6 years 2 months ago #311642 by
Replied by on topic Do You Need Goals?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

JLSpinner wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: And what is it that you are being mindful of in the present?


Life, Kyrin. Experience, Knowledge, opportunity.


And what do you "plan" to do with that experience, knowledge and opportunity? ;) :P

Lol just teasing, I know what you mean but to my earlier point I think any "future" goal has a component part of "nowness".

Yes. But depending on our obstacles we have to be able to adapt and shift. But yes our goals become part of now.

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6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #311643 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Do You Need Goals?

V-Tog wrote: Like, do we need the kind of drive and general forward-motion that goals provide in order to be able to be passionate about life - about actually living it?


How can someone say they are passionate about their life if they arent doing anything with their life? Now i know some of you are freakingout at that choice of words because you dont want someone else to decide for you what it means to "do something with your life" - just dont, please, lol. ONLY YOU GET TO DECIDE what it it means to "do something withyour life" (and in your heart you probably know if you are or arent) and only you can decide what is that youre passionate about...well actually, we cant decide what to be passionate about any more than we can decide how tall we are, its just the natural development of our Being, but my point is that its a PERSONAL experience and not one that anyone else gets to decide for us.

To be passionate about something means you care about it and youre invested in it. You ever hear someone say they were passionate about music, but they didnt own any music or know any bands or play any kind of music or go to any clubs or concerts, or any sort of musical performances at all?

When we are passionate about things, we immerse ourselves in them and they become priorities to us. When that happens, goals inevitably begin to emerge around them. Youll organize and pursue those goals if youre smart. If youre not then youll fail to fully claim your passion/s for whatever reasons, you wont make them into priorities, and youll allow other things to occupy the bulk of your time and energy. If you do that long enough theres a good chance youll regret it, because those other things often turn out to be much less important... turn out to not even matter, really, but time only flows one way.
How do i know this? Well lets say ive always been passionate but i was never very smart lol

I've just thought, also - something like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - can we raise ourselves above the bottom level without deliberate, conscious goals.....


Short answer: NO! Lol Not unless you inherit a fortune or win the lottery. Which brings me to something i meant to say earlier about the "Rat Race", and this is mostly directed at our younger Jedi - YOURE GOING TO HAVE TO RUN THAT RACE NO MATTER WHAT! Unless you come from a family wealthy enough that you never have to have a job, youre going to have to have a job eventually lol, so rather than avoiding the rat-race, you need to think about what kind of race youd like to run and what "winning" and "losing" it would look like to you. Then you can figure out what sorts of goals you should be moving towards to "win".

People are complicated.
Last edit: 6 years 2 months ago by OB1Shinobi.
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6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #311644 by
Replied by on topic Do You Need Goals?

JLSpinner wrote: Yes. But depending on our obstacles we have to be able to adapt and shift. But yes our goals become part of now.



Oh I agree absolutely. I am the Sammy Davis Jr of tap dancing those goals. Static goals only tie us to a direct path to the grave. Why would we ever do that?

Take my path here. When I came here I wanted to be a Jedi. More importantly I wanted to be a knight. In that path I have found some invaluable friends.but I also found a mentor that became so special to me I could not imagine. The most important thing he taught me was to never settle, never compromise. Never compromise myself and never settle for mediocracy.

So in the face of an untenable wall here I have given up that pursuit of knighthood in favor of something I could be true to. But I have also remained... remained to support my friends, like you and senan. Others have left, but I remain. I remain for you guys. I want greatness, I demand the best and you can deliver that, so I remain. And maybe one day I will count myself among you as a knight worthy of that title.
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6 years 2 months ago #311683 by
Replied by on topic Do You Need Goals?

What role does goal-setting play in our lives? To what extent to do you set and pursue short/middle/long-term goals, and could you function without them?


It's sometimes as much a negative force as a positive one. It plays a heavy role in most lives, but I think after enough time, people give up goals and trying to change and get on with life as they do. For me personally, I'm much more wary of having goals than I used to and would rather develop habits instead, as understood by this article, https://www.farnamstreetblog.com/2017/06/habits-vs-goals/ -I'd urge people to check it out as it offers an alternative to the common goal setting that we get into and potential problems that lie within, :)

Hope you're doing well V and life is treating you well, :)

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6 years 2 months ago #311685 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Do You Need Goals?
I think the subconscious tracks expected future energy needs (such as tasks, risks and uncertainty) to some extent, and when we plan for the future we extend that sort of load to it. Not to suggest that is abnormal, but rather to highlite that how we relate to planning could thusly have a strong avenue to really influence our overall wellbeing by virtue of those associated intrinsic functions. So the difference between having a goal (in the future), and 'having a goal of no goal', could be that that the later affords access to that process without the burden of associating the temporal dimension to it... perhaps creating a sensation of empowerment, and even fueling a feeling of heightened presence by letting that energy supercharge other systems like perception. That is sort of how it feels for me, but in terms of planning then it becomes one of efficiency and maintenance, which really benefits from trial and error. So I do think its important to exercise that when able, so that it can be effective when needed and have some endurance when tested.... but all things considered its going to be very individual as to how and when, and whether someone needs to exercise distribution of energy into the future or instead pooling it in the present.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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6 years 2 months ago #311751 by Ben
Replied by Ben on topic Do You Need Goals?

Vusuki wrote: For me personally, I'm much more wary of having goals than I used to and would rather develop habits instead, as understood by this article, https://www.farnamstreetblog.com/2017/06/habits-vs-goals/ -I'd urge people to check it out as it offers an alternative to the common goal setting that we get into and potential problems that lie within, :)



That's a great article! Thank you for sharing!

I guess the formation of habits still requires some sort of goals, otherwise - what's the motivation for developing and persisting with the habit? This has been one of the things I've been musing on - do habits engender motivation, or does motivation engender habits?

So, if one is lamenting a lack of meaningful goals in their life, ought they to form some somewhat arbitrary habits in the hope that they will give rise to some sense of direction, or will a habit only be successful if its conception is based on some pre-determined direction?





Vusuki wrote: Hope you're doing well V and life is treating you well, :)


I am and it is, thank you! The same for yourself, I hope! :)

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6 years 2 months ago #311752 by
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What role does goal-setting play in our lives? To what extent to do you set and pursue short/middle/long-term goals, and could you function without them?


Goal setting gives us a way to envision what we wish to achieve.

I do what most do: have a major goal to achieve, break major goal down into smaller goals/checkpoints, find the starting point, chase it.

Could I function without them? Sure. I do it all the time.

The way I think about it: any goal without a plan is just a dream.

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6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #311787 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Do You Need Goals?

Vusuki wrote:

What role does goal-setting play in our lives? To what extent to do you set and pursue short/middle/long-term goals, and could you function without them?


It's sometimes as much a negative force as a positive one. It plays a heavy role in most lives, but I think after enough time, people give up goals and trying to change and get on with life as they do. For me personally, I'm much more wary of having goals than I used to and would rather develop habits instead, as understood by this article, https://www.farnamstreetblog.com/2017/06/habits-vs-goals/ -I'd urge people to check it out as it offers an alternative to the common goal setting that we get into and potential problems that lie within, :)

Hope you're doing well V and life is treating you well, :)


If i decide that i want to build the habits of eating vegetables and running three times a week, havent i just set goals? I mean if im not going to actually DO anything to create these new habits then they are, like Luthien said, dreams rather than goals.
But once i consciously decide on an outcome and start taking actions towards achieving my desired outcome......is that not what a goal is?

Or going in the other direction, If i want to break a bad habit, like i smoke too much crack and i decide i want to change, isnt that a goal? I very much appreciate that the article brought up the importance of habits, but i feel it obfuscated the issue by talking about habits and goals as being totally different. From my own experience i can say that habits are at the heart of some of my most important goals.

People are complicated.
Last edit: 6 years 2 months ago by OB1Shinobi.
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6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #311813 by
Replied by on topic Do You Need Goals?

V-tog:
That's a great article! Thank you for sharing!

I guess the formation of habits still requires some sort of goals, otherwise - what's the motivation for developing and persisting with the habit? This has been one of the things I've been musing on - do habits engender motivation, or does motivation engender habits?


I think you might be right V about the formation of habit requiring some sort of goals, but I also think the goals over time become secondary to the habits themselves which become independent of the set goals.

Here's an example between a habit and a goal. I want to write a book in 6 months- This is a goal- a thing in the uncertain future. I write 300 words a day- a habit- a closer-to-the-present moment in daily life that generally has been set up with effort previously but now requires much less effort. We can ask ourselves which of these is actually going to get you your book- the desire to do it or the action of making small but continual progress- but habits take time and effort to set up.

And I guess some confusion might lie in how you can make a habit a goal- such as I want to read 10 pages a day of my book. You make time for the activity and some days when you're in the early stages, you don't manage but you pick yourself back up, try again the next day and adjust until you are consistsently reading those 10 pages every day. Later on, it doesn't matter so much whether you read 10 pages or 15, but the goal doesn't matter as much anymore- you've the habit set up and you don't have to force yourself as much as you did before.

So yeah, simply, I think habits get rid of motivation (over time at least), because once it is a set habit, like flossing my teeth, I don't have to think or want to continue or do it anymore- I just get on with it with very little effort (as opposed to when I started and I thought to myself- I'm tired I don't really want to but I'll push through).

V-Tog: So, if one is lamenting a lack of meaningful goals in their life, ought they to form some somewhat arbitrary habits in the hope that they will give rise to some sense of direction, or will a habit only be successful if its conception is based on some pre-determined direction?


This strangely reminds me of how Alan Watts said something along the lines of "Do what you love". I wonder if when one is lamenting a lack of meaningful goals, they are really lamenting their current experience of life, and placing a higher value on a different imagined experience- "If I did this or acheived this (a goal) then I'd be happy/happier".

I think that there's some interesting ideas in thinking about what are arbitrary habits. I wonder if an arbitrary habit could become rational over time. There is the argument that most of lives are dictated, less by free will than we imagine, and more by habit which has formed over years of similar experiences. There is a sense of things being arbitrary in this sense because we feel that events that happen with us (mutually arising mess that we are) aren't logical according to our mental models. I'm not sure I'm making much sense at this point sorry but I'll return to your question shortly after one more point: I think the recognition that, we already have habits that we are unaware of (and also have no pre-determined direction that we are aware of) helps to reduce guilt and the sense that we are totally responsible for our actions- see this for a better description: https://www.facebook.com/theRSAorg/videos/1751369068218347/

Habits already exist in us and are presumably 'successful' at getting us to a future, whether positive or negative and whether we are aware of it or not. I think you can have habits that are separate from clear goals, for example, I run because I enjoy it or because it keeps me healthy. There is no goal to get healthy or to enjoy the running- it just happens like that. (Perhaps this is why I was reminded of Alan Watts earlier with the "Do what you love" idea- https://zenpencils.com/comic/98-alan-watts-what-if-money-was-no-object/ ). So in this sense, and to finally answer your question I don't know about the setting up of habits and their reliance on a goal, but I do believe that habits can become successful without a lasting conception of some pre-determined/imagined direction. Does that make sense?

OB1: If i decide that i want to build the habits of eating vegetables and running three times a week, havent i just set goals? I mean if im not going to actually DO anything to create these new habits then they are, like Luthien said, dreams rather than goals.
But once i consciously decide on an outcome and start taking actions towards achieving my desired outcome......is that not what a goal is?

Or going in the other direction, If i want to break a bad habit, like i smoke too much crack and i decide i want to change, isnt that a goal? I very much appreciate that the article brought up the importance of habits, but i feel it obfuscated the issue by talking about habits and goals as being totally different. From my own experience i can say that habits are at the heart of some of my most important goals.


Yep Ob1 you set goals by saying I WANT to do such as such and yes again you can have goals to make habits. What I'm trying to say (excuse my lack of clarity- I develop these ideas as I go and talk with you guys! :p Thanks, :) ) is that habits over time become less fixed to the goals and are a concept worth developing and understanding more than goals. Indeed as you said, like habits are at the heart of some of your most important goals, without the habits or any action, and your goals would be more like dreams (as Luthien said). The interesting thing is that habits aren't reliant on goals (You've already got habits in the way you get up every morning for example) but success is more reachable in a way through developing habits rather than setting goals.

You wrote that you felt the article obfuscated the issue by talking as if habits and goals were totally different. I can't speak as the writer of the article but I do believe there is a problem with focusing on goals more than on habits in current society. For example in the workplace, we have standards and targets to meet (goals)- I wonder how many of these do not get met due to not understanding the value of habits? And so goals and habits, in my experience and understanding, are very different to one another. Habits are much more present whereas goals are set in the future. Habits exist with and without an individual's awareness but goals only with their awareness. Habits once set up take much less energy than goals that require willpower until completion if the goals are to be completed.

Does what I say make more sense now? :) Thanks for your questions Ob1.
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6 years 2 months ago #311878 by
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What if making goals is the habit? Is that making habits out of habits? A habit habit?

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