Are we "playing a rarified and lofty form of the old ego-game"?

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7 years 2 months ago #272881 by
@nicholasos,

you pose the question and you begin to see the very argument the question implies. Most people do not see the forest for the trees. There are no enemies and there are no allies, there are no groups. Every attempt to quantify our experience in any way only serves to cheapen it. It is not about numbers or morality or accuracy or even qualification. It is about experience. This is something that cant be taught, only realized.

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7 years 2 months ago #272884 by
"...registration in TotJO is no more exclusionary than registering for a class at university, or creating a profile on Facebook."

Accept that advancement requires a completed regimen before the further acquisition of knowledge is prohibited. If Jedi "actually feel themselves as the whole process and pattern of life. Experience and experiencer become one experiencing, known and knower one knowing.", it seems the process of advancement through the ranks requires the regression of one's understanding of "self".

"...the more it becomes clear that to be is to quarrel and to pursue self-interest, the more you are compelled to recognize your need for enemies to support you. In the same way, the more resolutely you plumb the question "Who or what am I?"—the more unavoidable is the realization that you are nothing at all apart from everything else. Yet again, the more you strive for some kind of perfection or mastery—in morals, in art or in spirituality—the more you see that you are playing a rarified and lofty form of the old ego-game, and that your attainment of any height is apparent to yourself and to others only by contrast with someone else's depth or failure…"

Is the advancement in rank within the TOTJO not striving towards at least SOME sort of mastery, in morals, philosophy, or spirituality, forcing oneself to regress from oneness within reality to "playing a rarified and lofty form of the old ego-game" or separating oneself from the rest. Which as I currently (and limitedly) understand, is not the way of the Jedi…

This is conflicting me.

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7 years 2 months ago #272888 by Leah Starspectre

Nicholasos wrote: "...registration in TotJO is no more exclusionary than registering for a class at university, or creating a profile on Facebook."

Accept that advancement requires a completed regimen before the further acquisition of knowledge is prohibited. If Jedi "actually feel themselves as the whole process and pattern of life. Experience and experiencer become one experiencing, known and knower one knowing.", it seems the process of advancement through the ranks requires the regression of one's understanding of "self".

Is the advancement in rank within the TOTJO not striving towards at least SOME sort of mastery, in morals, philosophy, or spirituality, forcing oneself to regress from oneness within reality to "playing a rarified and lofty form of the old ego-game" or separating oneself from the rest. Which as I currently (and limitedly) understand, is not the way of the Jedi…

This is conflicting me.


Nobody prohibits acquisition of knowledge at TotJO. There are no "higher mysteries" here that only the higher ranks are privy to. Our ranks are more akin to grades in a school - what you learn in one rank forms the foundation you need to properly understand the next. Being in Grade 5 doesn't ban you from studying physics or Shakespeare, just as being an apprentice doesn't ban me from learning to think and behave like a Knight. In fact, my teaching master told me straight off the bat when we started studying together: "I expect you to behave as a Knight starting now, as best as you understand that. As your understanding evolves, so should your choices"

A lot of what we learn/teach here requires introspection and awareness - not mastery, per se. And that cannot be learned in an instant. The ranks are a good way to organize that process into stepping stones so that anyone who wants to pursue our particular world views has a simple (though not particularly easy) way to do so. It' also worth noting that ranks are not only an indication of the level of study a person has competed, but also the level of responsibility they have to the TotJO community. The higher the rank, the more a person is expected to serve others.

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7 years 2 months ago #272893 by Manu
The short answer to the question in your title is: YES.

The follow up question, however, is what to do about it? How do you intend escaping that "feel good" that comes from this realization of being part of a game (which in turn plunges you into the game by becoming "more aware" about it now).

I am a married man. I have children. These "people" are my family. That necessarily requires drawing a line and stating that other people are NOT my family. Is that a bad thing?

You can sit around and wonder these philosophical questions ad infinitum, or you can simply make a choice as to what you are willing to consider important (and thus, what you deem unimportant), and then work with that.

There is no "full picture" to grasp, doesn't matter how hard you meditate.

The pessimist complains about the wind;
The optimist expects it to change;
The realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward

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7 years 2 months ago #272894 by RyuJin
Actually rank within totjo is more like levels of responsibility...the higher the rank, the more responsibility heaped upon the individual, the more responsibility we take on...that is why you'll notice fewer posts made by higher level members. We do a lot of stuff to keep totjo running and growing...

Each rank does come with different levels of access, but this is not to exclude or isolate, this is for the safety/security of our members...we have been hacked in the past and will likely be in the future...by limiting access we reduce the risk of information about our members getting out without their approval...to date we have been successful in protecting that information...

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7 years 2 months ago - 7 years 2 months ago #272898 by
Regardless of intent, are these not the consequences? Is there no hypocrisy?

"The difficulty with every one of these disciplines is that the moment you are seriously involved, you find yourself boxed in some special in-group which defines itself, often with the most elegant subtlety, by the exclusion of an out-group. In this way, every religion or cult is self-defeating, and this is equally true of projects which define themselves as non-religions or universally inclusive religions, playing the game of "I am less exclusive than you..."

The IP program is available to all, but the ranking system requires serious involvement in a percieved "special in group" by those on the outside.

And in the 21 Maxims...

"Integrity: To be consistent.

A Jedi lives as a Jedi at all times. Hypocrisy is their worst enemy."

Wouldn't consistency be maintaining that "you know for sure that your separate ego is a fiction" and that "you actually feel yourself as the whole process and pattern of life"? Not separate from the other with the goal of advancement?

I honestly mean not to offend, only gain understanding.
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7 years 2 months ago #272904 by JamesSand

I honestly mean not to offend, only gain understanding.



From who?

Will my input be more or less valid because I'm of a different caste to you, and different again to the caste of people who had studied the IP or gained the guidance of a knight?



There are no rewards for the "in-group" as you put it.

Jediism promises no enlightment, no pearly gates, no feast hall of the dead - Whether you gain a rank at TotJO or not defines nothing in yourself, your understanding of the force, or what returns you gain from your investment in Jediism.

As far as I know (and I don't, because I'm never invited) - There are no secret tea parties with scones for other ranks.

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7 years 2 months ago #272917 by Adder

Nicholasos wrote: Regardless of intent, are these not the consequences? Is there no hypocrisy?

"The difficulty with every one of these disciplines is that the moment you are seriously involved, you find yourself boxed in some special in-group which defines itself, often with the most elegant subtlety, by the exclusion of an out-group. In this way, every religion or cult is self-defeating, and this is equally true of projects which define themselves as non-religions or universally inclusive religions, playing the game of "I am less exclusive than you..."

The IP program is available to all, but the ranking system requires serious involvement in a percieved "special in group" by those on the outside.


I don't think the IP prescribes results, but as an exercise in focus it still has results... and so yes that does represent a group - but its open to access, so that still seem very relevant to the the question about intention about those results. I'd consider if I viewed any difference between somethings nature and its essence. For example, the knowledge is not a prerequisite for rank but rather just the experience of it.... and I've probably forgotten quite a bit of the IP but my rank remains. So the parameters of any perceived group need to be accurate otherwise it becomes less about the process or its resultant group and more about the mindset of the person developing the perceptions. And as mentioned, those areas which are closed to access are closed for administrative and functional reasons rather then any particular isolation of knowledge or shaping of participant opinion/view or even experience itself. Indeed it might be important for people to question these things as part of the process of learning, as our subjective lens is always going to direct our perception no matter how much objective framework we wrap around the picture.

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7 years 2 months ago - 7 years 2 months ago #272918 by
It's not so much the "rewards" as in the separateness itself. Jediism and The TOTJO are two different things. While one doesn't need to complete an initiate program and an apprenticeship to become a Jedi existing within the Force, one would to advance as an individual within the ranks of the Temple. This separateness is what Watts was referring to when he explained how every "religion, cult, and project (which define themselves as non-religions or universally inclusive religions)" is self defeating, right?
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7 years 2 months ago #272926 by Adder
Depends on the individual. Given only so much timber, the shape of the ship being built depends on what you want to use it for, and how well one is able to be specific in meeting that (with the available resources).

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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