Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight

Moderators: Adder, Desolous

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 23 Feb 2010 04:17 #29012

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
Sweet Baby Jesus!
Founder of The Order

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 23 Feb 2010 05:43 #29016

OK Tatsujin - firstly - I NEVER once said wiki was authoritative - never have and never will, im fully aware of its open source operation - as are most if not all our readers (or at least the adult readers) - I said its accurate.

There are hundreds of possible sources for this information, including the main scouting group website.

Im English born n bred - so if it makes you feel cosy inside - lets put it this way - Im giving the english historical version of the founding of the scouting movement - which funnily enough happens to be the nationality of Powell.

Another point - I dont see any 'grey area' in terms of the history - we're talking late 19th/early 20th century here - not several hundred years ago.

Neither did I once say the scouts and military are the same - you dont seriously think im that ignorant do you? This temple has DOZENS of active service personal, from all the forces from many nationalities - and as many if not more ex-servicemen/women. TOTJO also has regular interaction with the military for various reasons - and whilst I personally have not served - every generation of my family up to the current HAS served King/Queen and country - and has so dating back some 800+ years - im well aware of how the military functions thank you.

As a side note - linked to above point about language - I went somewhat out of my way to 'defend' you or at least put it to everyone else that perhaps youd been misunderstood - im starting to think 'why did I bother'

Have you had enough of the masters in this thread because you dont like being challenged over your statements?

To be blunt - a number of your posts have been quite abrasive - generally I put this down to language differences and the limitations of text conversations - I tend to cut everyone slack (when they are new or reasonably new) just in case its 'new comers defensive syndrome' or something - yet in an earlier post, you said

Tatsujin wrote:
If anything would make me want to leave, it's being put in a position to explain myself any time I affirm what the order is doing because someone is used to being assailed by people who don't get it.

yet your doing exactly this to others time n again.

Youve also said your seen as opinionated/snobby etc - have you wondered why this is? Perhaps lines such as this

Tatsujin wrote:
The third thought that crosses my mind is that I'm an intellectual who can post with clarity and defend myself well. This comes off to most people as being overly opinionated and snobby, so I can gather that when combining the three thoughts would result in people not reading what I'm writing and assuming their way through.

will explain this.

Your not the only one to have run many sites, your not the only one with any level of intellect but from the little I have experienced of you thus far is mainly your guilty of everything your pointing at others for. Most of the longer standing members here treat 'attacks' like water off a duck back- everyone has a different perspective of everything, one persons 'fact' maybe another's fantasy - history is written by the victors as they say.

I certainly am not going to disagree with your final line.

So back on topic - I think in terms of ranks etc - those who are 'rank haters' maybe have not quite thought about what the rank means. Just because one does not appreciate why another has a rank or title should not mean that they have no respect to the individual. Of course, respect is a mutual thing, but if your in a place (physically or otherwise) where ranks are used - it is only good manners to use the appropriate titles etc. You would expect a 'guest' in your home to treat you with respect and abide by your rules - so its simple course to do the same - be it in a home, public building, website or other place.

From what ive seen elsewhere - the main cause of problems in this regard is lack of understanding of what the title or rank means - with the knowledge of what they mean and what the function of the title and or individual - one can often avoid looking foolish or worse - ignorant.

Yes, respect is two way traffic - but someone has to 'go first' - so by showing the appropriate respect - youll be off to a good start in a given situation. As said, there will always be the little hitlers - but they are easy to identify, just keep calm and polite but dont fuel their rage or ego - if necessary, walk away - it takes at least two to fight ;)

As a final note - I have one irritation in terms of ranks and titles - its folks who (as an example) INSIST on being called 'Major' or whatever - when the last time they were in active service was in WW2. OK, they earned the rank in the military at the time, but military and civilian life is very different - most civies wont understand the ranks anyway and its especially maddening to see/hear elderly 'Majors' (again an example) get cross with say a 20 year old for not using the title. Whats the point? they will have only legitimatly had the title for a couple or so years anyway and once out of service - is the 'rank' theirs toi use anyway?

Would a serving soldier now, follow an 'order' from a guy who was a major 60years ago? I very much doubt it - so why do such folk think others should treat them differently. If you really want the name used - get your name changed by law (deed poll in the UK)

This really does only serve to feed the ego of the title holder - and at the end of the day - its only a word, a badge - it has no actual value and like money - you cant take it with you.

Everyone is equal in death and within the force ;)

"If you don't like or agree with the way we do things here, you know where the door is"

" What we do in life - echoes an eternity!"

Pastor Emeritus - Apprentice To Br John

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 24 Feb 2010 23:48 #29039

Wow Tatsujin you really carried this a long way since I was last on.

Maybe we should withdraw from this subject or change the subject?

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 25 Feb 2010 00:11 #29040

  • stevef
  • stevef's Avatar
  • Knight
  • ID: 535
been on and off for a while, and I just noticed a clever post saying lets be respectful and call people by rank or title.
Wow, for a simple point this thread got really complicated... scouts and the UK and the military!

here's my rule of thumb and it seems to make sense:
if They are a master Call them Master X. I use the username in shout and the forums. If they are an apprentice call them Apprentice X or I think Padawan is acceptable to most. or Brother or Sister.
Knights Sir Madam or Brother Sister
If you and them are the same rank Brother or Sister is fine.
If you don't know and are too lazy to find out Brother or Sister.
Ya we can use the full title or multiple titles but it's less about who's what than being respectful of all of us. let me say that again, it's about respecting your fellow jedi.

if you look at the films, all the jedi were called by a title even by Palpatine, who hated them and wanted to destroy all jedi. If he can bite the bullet so can we.

but maybe I'm too simple to be in this conversation.


Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 25 Feb 2010 23:15 #29054

  • Jaden
  • Jaden's Avatar
  • Guest
  • ID: 1092
I been reading the whole thread and I would like to bring my small contribution in, saying what I think about ranks.

First of all I never see the rank, I see the person behind it and use the rank to get an idea about the amount of knowledge and work that person had until now. For instance I am an apprentice and it describes exactly what I am: a person that has more to learn in order to be able to teach others. As Kana Seiko Haruki said in one of the posts, a master is a normal human being which never looses the desire to learn and improve oneself for the good of others and make this world a better place.

We could put it this way: you call the one that gave you birth \"mother\". This is a rank. Before she gave birth she was a woman, she didn't knew how it feels and what it means to be a mother unless she had a child. This goes the same with our ranks: when you join in you know few things or maybe nothing about jediism. Later on as you learn your perception about life and other matters change, the ranks are there to remind of who you were and where you reached.

I personally see ranks as a tool to help new members and make the bound between members stronger. For instance when I will be called Master I wouldn't feel any different from what I feel now (it will just make me remember always about my duties and responsibilities I have towards the Temple and it's members)but I certainly know that a new member will come to me and ask for help because he/she would know that I am among those who know about TOTJO.

And yeah it's a matter of respect also. It's your choice if you want to use the ranks or not but I wonder if you would call your boss by his/her name, if you would call your school teacher by name and so on. As long as you see it JUST as a matter of respect you shouldn't feel offended yourself when others tell you to follow this simple rule and use the ranks.

Hope I managed to explain these things well as english is not my native language. Thanks for taking time to read this.

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 26 Feb 2010 23:22 #29062

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
Yes you did Jaden very well indeed.
Founder of The Order

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 27 Feb 2010 22:48 #29068

  • Jestor
  • Jestor's Avatar
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 3682
The comparrison to 'mother'... awesome..

VERY well done Jaden....
Rite: PureLand
Master: Master Jasper_Ward
Former Apprentices: Knight Learn_To_Know, Knight Edan, Knight Brenna
Current Apprentices: Viskhard, DanWerts, Elizabeth, Llama Su

"Shut up. Stop. Stop waiting for" [anyone] "to tell you why you're here. Stop waiting for anyone to tell you why before you start. Stop waiting for meaningful work. Go do work that makes meaning. Don't wait to be assigned a role or a goal. Go and do.

Take a second, look around, find a place where what you are or do fills a hole, and go fill it. Stop waiting for the entire solution before you start. And no whining.

How, you ask? You're smart. Work it out."
~Cabur Senaar~
Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • What are you reading right now? (Last post by Liwa Nim)
    • Right now I'm re-reading "The Pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett. May be one of my favorite books, and it's almost a thousand pages - which is awesome!
    • Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation? (Last post by Liwa Nim)
    • Thank you for the ocean analogy Proteus :) When this topic comes up, I like to throw a curve ball and respond with, "Where were you before you were born?" All I know of death is what I can observe. The animate becomes inanimate, and then it is broken down into its base elements which are distributed throughout the environment. As to what becomes of meta-cognition (which is what we usually think of as "the self") I have no idea because I don't really even know what it is right now haha. I loved Proteus's analogy because it shows how things work. The same natural Forces that act on the tides also act on everything else. That's why it's said by wise dead Asians that if you understand the nature of one thing fully, you understand the nature of all things. Because all things are moved by the same Force. What's more important to me than what "I" become after I die, is what "I" am right Now.
    • A Message (Last post by Streen)
    • Quote: Quote: You can't organize a system designed to mean a different thing to each individual. Yet here we stand, lol... :lol:... I'm glad you said that, Jestor. A system without rules in general. A way with many paths. 6h057> Jediism might be a religion, but the Jedi online have existed for at least 20 years, and all of us have always had our own interpretation of what being a Jedi is, what the Force is, and what we're supposed to be doing. That's what makes being a Jedi so great. You have complete freedom to do and think whatever you wish, while still holding onto the common ground that the Force is with us.
    • Physical temple (Last post by Zenchi)
    • Why not donate to the TOTJO instead? Donations are (I would think) a much higher priority being that the site needs money to stay running, rather than a physical temple that much fewer members will have the luxury to visit...
    • The Thing All Women Do That You Don’t Know About (Last post by Edan)
    • Quote: I... women in general need to be guided, from youth, to discover their strength. While the difference in muscle and aggression between average men and women certainly is a factor, nurturing healthier characters in both boys and girls perhaps could prevent a lot of pain. I don't disagree with you, I do believe that respect must be taught to all both boys and girls, but that a great deal of behaviour is learned from parents. My friends who are teachers tell me that children who say racist things, for example, often have parents who don't understand what the problem is, and have expressed similar opinions to their children. Often, women are strong inside, but they don't speak out because they know it makes no difference. We're brushed off, or made fun of, or told to 'stop being so sensitive' (my favourite one!). Once you realise speaking out doesn't make much of a difference... you stop doing it. What some don't realise I think is that it's never just one thing.. it's never just one joke, or one incident.. it's an accumulation of many across years.. so that joke you think is funny about women, has been heard by that woman probably a hundred times, and it never gets funny. Some of my colleagues made a rape joke at work the other day, not to a woman funnily enough, and I had to shut it down because I don't know what experiences others in my office have had. A friend of mine was raped and she spoke of it to about to only two people because of shame, so jokes like that to her must cut deep.
    • I think people are falling for it (Last post by Omhu Cuspor)
    • Quote: The thing is it always bothers me whenever I try asking questions. Whenever someone questions the official story, you see the media and the people have this "How dare you question your government?" mentality? I thought it was good to ask questions but apparently now that seems to be looked down upon. I couldn't agree more with this sentiment. Personally, given what we've seen since the turn of the century, I am disturbed more by people who dare not question their leadership more than I am by those who do question. I wasn't always like this, but can remember exactly what triggered the shift. In the months following 9/11, Colin Powell presented a well-known speech to the United Nations, presenting the U.S. administration's evidence that Iraq was building weapons of mass destruction. Not long thereafter, an article from The Guardian , the respected news outlet from the U.K., fell into my hands. It heavily quoted a Cambridge professor who thought he recognized the text from which Powell was reading, and so started delving into his archives. He found the original document; it was the thesis of a graduate student focused on the situation in Iraq, written in 1991 - ten years earlier, when Bush the senior was preparing for Desert Storm. When the professor compared the thesis to the text of Powell's speech, he found even the misspellings and grammatical errors were the same. Powell has asserted that the document he was reading was current intelligence. That's when I knew things were not as they were being communicated to us. I see an awful lot from the conspiracy-theory community which strikes me as either unsupported or, sometimes, outright lunacy, but those we chide as part of the tin-hat crowd at least have their instincts well-tuned to the idea we are often being fooled. I encourage you to keep asking questions. Lots of people won't pay attention, but some will. Of those, some will oppose your point of view, and - when they are civil and thoughtful - it pays to consider what they say, as none of us is always right. The majority consensus, though, at least in this period, is IMHO most often wrong.
    • a new toy for fitness (Last post by RyuJin)
    • Quote: I'd like to know what kind of bag that is, I don't see a stand at all. Am I blind? it has a water filled bladder on the bottom....despite its weight it's still not enough to keep the bag in place when i give it a solid some point i'm probably going to get a 100lb heavy bag and last 100lb bag was destroyed by 3 years of punches and kicks...
    • The Grateful Thread (Last post by Cabur Senaar)
    • One of my people had tonic seizure during group. It is scary every damned time. That said: It was one of my other clients who pointed the seizure out, lingering to see how it all worked out and how I was doing after. The medical staff responded very promptly and the clients left the room so the nurses could work without comment or question. The seizure was brief and she didn't hit her head on the floor like the other time. All told, it was the best possible response to a crappy situation. I am grateful for the grace everyone showed.
    • Rants far and wide (Last post by Edan)
    • I hate feeling like this. Just had to remind myself I really could go into a shop and buy milk because I suddenly had strong social anxiety. But saying that....
    • The Force as described by a physicist? (Last post by Gisteron)
    • The limits of science lie where the limits of reality do. We can know things outside of that by other means, but inside those aforementioned bounds of reality all these means are incorporated deeply into science and neither anything more than it is required nor is anything less sufficient for within that realm.
    • Musings of a Madman (Last post by Gisteron)
    • So I did google speed of light slowing down, found a number of popular science magazines talking about slowing down light through refractive media and a few creationist websites. Now one of those isn't talking about the natural constant c and the other is talking anti-science by principle. While the speed of light is defined as constant, there is nothing technically wrong with viewing the speed of light as a variable and other things as constant in its stead; it's just incredibly inconvenient seeing how almost all of physics would have to be discarded and written anew. But anyone and everyone is welcome to go ahead and try that and I'm sure the first one to succeed will go home with a Nobel Prize that day. On another note, gravity is not a repulsive but an attractive force and dark energy is not the same as negative mass. When astronomers or physicists speak of dark matter or energy they mean such that does not register on spectrometers, not one that is in any way twisted or the opposite of their conventional counter-parts. And speaking of gravity, when we say force we don't mean some magical thing that affects things either, but rather the time derivative of momentum. Now, in classical mechanics that would mean the product of velocity and mass time derivative added to the product of mass and acceleration. However, light does not have mass, so the mechanical momentum can't be it. Instead we know - from relativity - that it's energy is the product of its velocity and momentum. At the risk of losing you here or making a whole bunch of mistakes or both, I shall not go ahead and deduce that from Maxwell's equations. Anyway, the energy of a unit of light I shall henceforth call photon is proportional to its frequency and as with any wave, the speed is the product of wavelength and frequency, so we end up with the momentum being inversely proportional to the wavelength and I shall henceforth call the scale factor Planck's constant. Of course what we have now is the magnitude of a momentum that does not depend at all on time and doesn't involve speed. So therefore the time derivative of that magnitude is zero and the photon's speed doesn't change, eventhough a force - gravity - is present. But of course momentum being a vector quantity it has not only a magnitude but also a direction, so that must be what the force is acting upon and this is what we observe: In the vicinity of a gravity well light bends towards the well. It changes direction but retains speed.

There are 1521 visitors, 8 guests and 23 members online (none in chat): Br. John, Jestor, Jedi_Roz, Kitsu Tails, Adhara, Darren, Gisteron, Reliah, Alexandre Orion, Alan, KageKeeper, Kohadre, Neytiri, Rick D, peace, Cabur Senaar, MrBruno, OB1Shinobi, Competent, Adi Vas, CryojenX, Tellahane, Htims Giarc, Liwa Nim, MartaLina, Breeso, Dariax, Konstan, Reiji, Maeros.

Follow Us