Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight
There are hundreds of possible sources for this information, including the main scouting group website.
Im English born n bred - so if it makes you feel cosy inside - lets put it this way - Im giving the english historical version of the founding of the scouting movement - which funnily enough happens to be the nationality of Powell.
Another point - I dont see any 'grey area' in terms of the history - we're talking late 19th/early 20th century here - not several hundred years ago.
Neither did I once say the scouts and military are the same - you dont seriously think im that ignorant do you? This temple has DOZENS of active service personal, from all the forces from many nationalities - and as many if not more ex-servicemen/women. TOTJO also has regular interaction with the military for various reasons - and whilst I personally have not served - every generation of my family up to the current HAS served King/Queen and country - and has so dating back some 800+ years - im well aware of how the military functions thank you.
As a side note - linked to above point about language - I went somewhat out of my way to 'defend' you or at least put it to everyone else that perhaps youd been misunderstood - im starting to think 'why did I bother'
Have you had enough of the masters in this thread because you dont like being challenged over your statements?
To be blunt - a number of your posts have been quite abrasive - generally I put this down to language differences and the limitations of text conversations - I tend to cut everyone slack (when they are new or reasonably new) just in case its 'new comers defensive syndrome' or something - yet in an earlier post, you said
If anything would make me want to leave, it's being put in a position to explain myself any time I affirm what the order is doing because someone is used to being assailed by people who don't get it.
yet your doing exactly this to others time n again.
Youve also said your seen as opinionated/snobby etc - have you wondered why this is? Perhaps lines such as this
The third thought that crosses my mind is that I'm an intellectual who can post with clarity and defend myself well. This comes off to most people as being overly opinionated and snobby, so I can gather that when combining the three thoughts would result in people not reading what I'm writing and assuming their way through.
will explain this.
Your not the only one to have run many sites, your not the only one with any level of intellect but from the little I have experienced of you thus far is mainly your guilty of everything your pointing at others for. Most of the longer standing members here treat 'attacks' like water off a duck back- everyone has a different perspective of everything, one persons 'fact' maybe another's fantasy - history is written by the victors as they say.
I certainly am not going to disagree with your final line.
So back on topic - I think in terms of ranks etc - those who are 'rank haters' maybe have not quite thought about what the rank means. Just because one does not appreciate why another has a rank or title should not mean that they have no respect to the individual. Of course, respect is a mutual thing, but if your in a place (physically or otherwise) where ranks are used - it is only good manners to use the appropriate titles etc. You would expect a 'guest' in your home to treat you with respect and abide by your rules - so its simple course to do the same - be it in a home, public building, website or other place.
From what ive seen elsewhere - the main cause of problems in this regard is lack of understanding of what the title or rank means - with the knowledge of what they mean and what the function of the title and or individual - one can often avoid looking foolish or worse - ignorant.
Yes, respect is two way traffic - but someone has to 'go first' - so by showing the appropriate respect - youll be off to a good start in a given situation. As said, there will always be the little hitlers - but they are easy to identify, just keep calm and polite but dont fuel their rage or ego - if necessary, walk away - it takes at least two to fight
As a final note - I have one irritation in terms of ranks and titles - its folks who (as an example) INSIST on being called 'Major' or whatever - when the last time they were in active service was in WW2. OK, they earned the rank in the military at the time, but military and civilian life is very different - most civies wont understand the ranks anyway and its especially maddening to see/hear elderly 'Majors' (again an example) get cross with say a 20 year old for not using the title. Whats the point? they will have only legitimatly had the title for a couple or so years anyway and once out of service - is the 'rank' theirs toi use anyway?
Would a serving soldier now, follow an 'order' from a guy who was a major 60years ago? I very much doubt it - so why do such folk think others should treat them differently. If you really want the name used - get your name changed by law (deed poll in the UK)
This really does only serve to feed the ego of the title holder - and at the end of the day - its only a word, a badge - it has no actual value and like money - you cant take it with you.
Everyone is equal in death and within the force
MTFBWY - A
"If you don't like or agree with the way we do things here, you know where the door is"
" What we do in life - echoes an eternity!"
Pastor Emeritus - Apprentice To Br John
Maybe we should withdraw from this subject or change the subject?
Wow, for a simple point this thread got really complicated... scouts and the UK and the military!
here's my rule of thumb and it seems to make sense:
if They are a master Call them Master X. I use the username in shout and the forums. If they are an apprentice call them Apprentice X or I think Padawan is acceptable to most. or Brother or Sister.
Knights Sir Madam or Brother Sister
If you and them are the same rank Brother or Sister is fine.
If you don't know and are too lazy to find out Brother or Sister.
Ya we can use the full title or multiple titles but it's less about who's what than being respectful of all of us. let me say that again, it's about respecting your fellow jedi.
if you look at the films, all the jedi were called by a title even by Palpatine, who hated them and wanted to destroy all jedi. If he can bite the bullet so can we.
but maybe I'm too simple to be in this conversation.
First of all I never see the rank, I see the person behind it and use the rank to get an idea about the amount of knowledge and work that person had until now. For instance I am an apprentice and it describes exactly what I am: a person that has more to learn in order to be able to teach others. As Kana Seiko Haruki said in one of the posts, a master is a normal human being which never looses the desire to learn and improve oneself for the good of others and make this world a better place.
We could put it this way: you call the one that gave you birth \"mother\". This is a rank. Before she gave birth she was a woman, she didn't knew how it feels and what it means to be a mother unless she had a child. This goes the same with our ranks: when you join in you know few things or maybe nothing about jediism. Later on as you learn your perception about life and other matters change, the ranks are there to remind of who you were and where you reached.
I personally see ranks as a tool to help new members and make the bound between members stronger. For instance when I will be called Master I wouldn't feel any different from what I feel now (it will just make me remember always about my duties and responsibilities I have towards the Temple and it's members)but I certainly know that a new member will come to me and ask for help because he/she would know that I am among those who know about TOTJO.
And yeah it's a matter of respect also. It's your choice if you want to use the ranks or not but I wonder if you would call your boss by his/her name, if you would call your school teacher by name and so on. As long as you see it JUST as a matter of respect you shouldn't feel offended yourself when others tell you to follow this simple rule and use the ranks.
Hope I managed to explain these things well as english is not my native language. Thanks for taking time to read this.