If we all lived in a Utopia, we'd dream of going back to the current world!

From "Brave New World", in French:
« Les utopies apparaissent bien plus réalisables qu'on ne le croyait autrefois. Et nous nous trouvons actuellement devant une question bien autrement angoissante : comment éviter leur réalisation définitive ?… Les utopies sont réalisables. La vie marche vers les utopies. Et peut-être un siècle nouveau commence-t-il, un siècle où les intellectuels et la classe cultivée rêveront aux moyens d'éviter les utopies et de retourner à une société non utopique moins « parfaite » et plus libre. »

English Translation:
"Utopias seem to be much more achievable than we formerly believed them to be. Now we find ourselves presented with another alarming question: how do we prevent utopias from coming into existence? …Utopias are possible. Life tends towards the formation of utopias. Perhaps a new century will begin, a century in which intellectuals and the privileged will dream of ways to eliminate utopias and return to a non-utopic society less “perfect” and more free.”


My take:
I think it's fair to say that many of us have dreamed of a utopian society, ever since we each have first heard of the concept. A perfect society.....against all the wrongs that are present today: from the public politics, even to the personal social wrongs. You probably have imagined your ideal utopia, but have you ever thought about how you would feel once you have it?

Notice that nearly all types of utopias seem to label free, uncensored actions of humans as the sources of problems. So, these utopias tend to use very controlling leadership to impose and maintain rules and corrections to address these problems.

Would you give up personal freedom for a fairer, less problematic life?

Do people have a basic desire for things they don't have?

And if so, would people of a utopian society desire the freedom and thrilling risks that we currently have in our world?

SeanChing wrote: Would you give up personal freedom for a fairer, less problematic life?

Do people have a basic desire for things they don't have?

And if so, would people of a utopian society desire the freedom and thrilling risks that we currently have in our world?

1) Hmm...it very much depends on which personal freedom. Did you have an example in mind?

2) I would say this is the case for a segment of the population. I try to limit my desire for things I don't have, but I'm not often successful in this. Lately I've been on a hiking binge and I wish I could hike everyday in the mountains, haha. I've had to curb that desire for practical reasons.

3) I'd say that is highly likely.

I think it's impossible to have a utopian society that makes everyone happy.

I LOVE to sit on the top of a mountain and just take in the serenity and quietude of the surroundings. Others I know would go insane if forced to do that, haha.

But that's a goal of Jediism is it not? To bring peace and serenity where there is despair? We can offer a utopia to others that are gripped in a bitter reality. Show another positive way to look at things.

Thanks for the thought-provoking post.

The title...

Isnt that the premise of The Matrix movie? (hint: it is...)

The computers designed us a perfect world and we kept rejecting the program? Instead, missing the strife, and problems of life?

In 'the game of black and white', we have to have the 'un'-utopia, so that we can have the utopia...

The first generations would enjoy it, those who came from the world of hustle and bustle...

But, the first generation kids, born into that society, will want more excitement... Its why farm kids move into the city, and old folks move to the counrty, lol...

Would you give up personal freedom for a fairer, less problematic life?

Isnt that what they are trying to do with each new law that takes away our rights?

No guns, cover your boobies, we are all equal, seat belts and helmet laws, government taxes... etc, etc

We give up our rights every day...

Some of us will miss some, some of us will miss others....

I never saw free-range boobies, I have never owned a gun, always wore seatbelts...

So, yes, some I will miss, some I will care about, others I will not...

Do people have a basic desire for things they don't have?

Yes...

But more because they think they are missing out...

Missing fun, or something to make our lives even easier...

Wait till the robots begin at the level of I, Robot... Then we will really be a fat lazy society...

And if so, would people of a utopian society desire the freedom and thrilling risks that we currently have in our world?

Again, not all, and not those that move there, the next gereations and on, and on...

Good topic Sean, and a tie-in to the Feminist thread, as well as the Freedom of Speech thread...

Yay for segue...

For some unknown reason, I'm unable to use the quote tool for you, Learn to Know.

Regardless, and in regard to your question one questions 1....

It could be a less drastic, more modern example of giving up personal freedom for a fairer, less problematic life, such as giving up your cars to reduce carbon emissions, fuel usage, and traffic jams. (Which is pretty drastic by our current standards, but not that drastic by an extremely communal, utopian society.)

Or, it could even be an extremely drastic, speculative example of giving up personal freedom for a fairer, less problematic life, such as giving up family systems and personal relationships for a communal, "every one belongs to every one" society (as told in "Brave New World").

SeanChing wrote:
It could be a less drastic, more modern example of giving up personal freedom for a fairer, less problematic life, such as giving up your cars to reduce carbon emissions, fuel usage, and traffic jams. (Which is pretty drastic by our current standards, but not that drastic by an extremely communal, utopian society.)

Oooh, that's a tough one. I'd give up my truck in a heart-beat and work from home to reduce the brown cloud (especially in Phoenix, AZ), but on the other hand, my truck gets me to those mountains I love hiking on...

What I find myself wondering is whether it would be possible for people to feel constrained and want to rebel, because in a true Utopia, would feelings of rebellion and frustration exist?

Of course, it could seem a little like...but wouldn't we all lose our personal identity then??? Can it really be Utopia if we're all mindless Zombies?

But then...that takes us back to Alan Watts and 'The Book'...isn't the separate Ego just an illusion anyway? According to him at least...

Jestor wrote: Good topic Sean

I agree

SeanChing wrote: Notice that nearly all types of utopias seem to label free, uncensored actions of humans as the sources of problems. So, these utopias tend to use very controlling leadership to impose and maintain rules and corrections to address these problems.

Would you give up personal freedom for a fairer, less problematic life?

Do people have a basic desire for things they don't have?

And if so, would people of a utopian society desire the freedom and thrilling risks that we currently have in our world?

1) No not all. I would give up certain things to make the world better (as I see it), but if you give up all your freedom is it really a utopia? Couldn't you have a utopia where everyone has the ability to do what they want so long as they don't hurt anyone else (not totally free but still pretty good). For example: You like pot? Awesome, I think it smells weird so I'm gonna go sit on the other side of the park. Both of us can be happy.

2) Yes, the grass is always greener, right? Try it. Tell yourself that you're not allowed to eat cookies and you'll probably want them more than you did before. Though that only works for certain things...I don't think you'd want to be eaten by a shark even if I said you weren't allowed...right? :dry:

3) I think it depends. Do they know what another society looks like? If you only know one way then you might not have those thoughts. Or if your utopia really rocks then you'd have the thrill seekers who climb mountains, bungee jump, play paintball, etc. While the less excitable could go for a swim, study (though no books about the outside world...don't want them getting any ideas), lay in the sun, whatever. Becuase there would still be risks...but maybe you'd miss out on muggings and murder (things which most would probably not miss, but what do I know?)

Without sorrow, pain, loss and all the bad things in life, we wouldn't be able to enjoy the good things that happen. I'm actually reading A Brave New World right now, and that is a utopia in every sense of the word. They are happy about who they are(programmed to), they all have jobs and love them. No war, no strife. "Everyone belongs to everyone else." That phrase is drilled into their heads from day 1. But that's not our world, and we don't want it to be because we want the trouble of life. It gives us purpose, makes us who we are as individuals. We need bad to appreciate the good. I can have a horrible day where nothing goes right, but then I see a person help a total stranger, or a mother bird feed her chicks. Even a simple butterfly make its way to a flower. That will bring my day up. That is what makes life worth the hurt, because no matter how bad it gets, something beautiful is right around the corner.

I'll say no to the thread title. Our perception could be entirely neurochemical, meaning we wouldn't need a relative framework to understood highs and lows, instead if we just felt fantastic no matter what we were doing, and all the time, we might just view the world around us in different terms, such as of efficient or inefficient. I've always thought everything might be better understood in those terms of less waste, less misunderstanding, less lies. These days people seem very fixated on understanding things in terms of how they make them feel, and the timeliness of efficiency is relegated to function to how it makes me feel to wait. Of course it might be impossible to create that state of mind in perpetuity but given enough time someone might come up with a custom virus which reprograms the brain in just the perfect way, so I'll say yes a Utopia is possible in an idealized theoretical example.

Hi

I think you are totally right in saying this, previously i have gone through stuff that has been not nice but i have come through that experience a better person.