The ideas behind the "Light" and the "Dark" sides are both admirable, yes?

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07 May 2018 22:16 #321303 by GizmoRazaar
GizmoRazaar created the topic: The ideas behind the "Light" and the "Dark" sides are both a
I know it's a pet peeve of the temple for bringing up the concept of the "Dark" Side of the Force, and I can understand, it doesn't really exist in reality. But what I mean by this is the ideologies behind both sides of the Force within the Star Wars Universe, and how they both conflict with each other, but in concept both work as fair applicants of philosophy to reality. As you all know (hopefully), the Light Side is centered around altruism, selflessness and protection of the weak, as well as a respect for all of life. Humility, respect, compassion: all traits found in a true Jedi.

But what about the the pastures that aren't so green? The "Dark" Side is typically viewed as conniving and malignant in the movies, and rightfully so. A man in a dark, metallic suit that murdered a group of children isn't exactly a respectable member of society. The "Dark" Side of the force corrupts the mind, soul and body, but this is simply because of the mystical nature of it within the fictional universe. However, the idea behind the Sith Code, in particular, is that one must use their emotions and ambition to better themselves , and in doing so "Their Chains are Broken." Applied to real life for a moment, the Sith Philosophy can get you that promotion, let you get that girl you like, and much more.

So then I may say that both philosophies, though both drastically different, are valid life applicants, and can and would assist one in the ability to live life to its fullest potential, just in different ways. So I ask you, fellow Jedi, what your observations of these ideologies are, and any comments on it. What is it that you all think of it?
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07 May 2018 22:21 #321304 by Arisaig
Arisaig replied the topic: The ideas behind the "Light" and the "Dark" sides are both a
Indeed. Both impossible ideals are great things to strive towards, and one can achieve much by following a Code that encourages constant growth.

I actually wrote an article on my understanding of this very issue for Ways of the Force: yourwayoftheforce.com/2018/04/29/the-com...y-ways-of-the-force/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Force speaks to us all, always. It takes a quiet mind to hear it, and a willing mind to listen.


Teaching Master: Knight Zenchi
Holocrons ~ IP I AP I Personal I
Sabre IVlog ~

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07 May 2018 22:56 #321306 by Adder
Adder replied the topic: The ideas behind the "Light" and the "Dark" sides are both a
From the movies? I'd suggest the Jedi also strive for growth, as they spend all their spare time training when not working - its just rather how someone chooses to assign value to what is portrayed and then grasps at the narrative with belief. The Sith in fiction seem to portray the philosophy as a justification or explanation for the means, while it seems more logical to me that its not the actual function of it IMO. Rather the 'spider to the fly'.

For IMO the fictional dark side would tend towards illegal conduct ultimately, and as a theme grasp at short term progress at the cost of long term growth.

But the point of movies is they dramatize and romanticize the unreal bits so it can speak to curiosity and wonderment in the audience. And we all have in our nature the need to sate the now.

But going that route of what is in effect cheating, the bigger or more numerous the lies at play, the more work in keeping that truth in the dark - so, its too exhausting LOL, like juggling - and in effect is being enslaved by your victims to perpetuate the illusion to keep your power channels open... which is why it breeds illegal conduct to break free of it and refine it. Of course 'that' is not very romantic, so its sold as power a bit like a pyramid scheme 'what is thy bidding my master'..... and indeed the main play of the Sith 'master' seems to be enslavement of the student, in a 'possessed' one on one dynamic. So as a path it seems to be more about use and abuse of others, and so the only real driver of self growth is in the ability to manipulate and hold enough power over peoples heads, which suffers and aforementioned problems IMO.

Doing it properly works so much better then cheating fair play and truth, it gives the results without the anxiety at the downside of taking a bit longer and perhaps doing a bit of real work oneself :D

And further its by the doing which one learns and grows, so doing what want to be good at benefits from being realistic about the impacts of what is done, as its from that which determines actually what ends up being done (unless one lives in a cave). With 'grasping' the result is too often too transitory, too easily, ie temptation, because our experience of the now is so much more tangible then the future we'll end up in - which seems far far away, despite being just around the corner and much more demanding of our attention then we might prefer to give it, for the past decisions of the future are the decisions you make now.... as depending on how you choose to define a positive growth, anyone who works to progress does some nature of critical assessment about past decision making to help inform better future decision making.

So to me the fiction provides some real useful things to my path, but definitely not a literal model.

'The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed.' ~ William Gibson
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
Joined: Aug 2011..... TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Former Apprentices: PCoronaf, Ratcliffe
Apprentices: Hypatia

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07 May 2018 23:09 #321308 by Carlos.Martinez3
Carlos.Martinez3 replied the topic: The ideas behind the "Light" and the "Dark" sides are both a
I love cinema ! Iva always been a fan of the storyteller from the directors view. From a clear distinct light and dark! The battle between them two and the on going never ending strive of one to be over the other.
Love it with a bucket of popcorn and cherry coke.
In real life things I have found for myself that things are rarely ever so clean cut and so obviously sided. The longer I study and the longer I learn and practice my own version of Jedi ismnin the real world the more I care less about labels such as light or dark. For me - eventually these labels changes and were called / life/
We all have desisions to make and where we get our focus can come from a whole slew of things from the books we read - the movies we watch - the music we listen - the faith we practice- where we live - who we are- so on and so forth. Emotion - feelings - are as much a part of this world as turning on a song or watching tv or even going to church or on a walk in the woods. We are all human. That’s part of being human. The questions of light and dark eventually end up at some point to your own balance and your own identification.
Know yourself . It’s possible.
Light dark grey up down today tomorrow yesterday - it’s all up to you and your choices as is your value of each of them and your own choice of application and study to them and how - or Neither .
Light n dark are the easiest to understand in the real world and so is gray. It’s around us all the time . Feel free to pm me , if you ever like or feel the need to. My in box is always open. Happy seeking and seek happy nights for happy days .
May the force you seek find you ! Maybit continue to find you ...!!! Smiley face

www.templeofthejediorder.org/contact-clergy

Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum

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16 May 2018 00:43 #321692 by Rickie
Rickie replied the topic: The ideas behind the "Light" and the "Dark" sides are both a
"what your observations of these ideologies are, and any comments on it. What is it that you all think of it?"

The're movie constructs. Some take them seriously/ Living in a fantasy is more comfortable than accepting life as it is. Balance is the key.

Peace, kindness, compassion, tolerance, truth, knowledge, strength of mind, body and spirit are not always companions of mine but are always pursued.

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17 May 2018 03:23 #321727 by MadHatter
MadHatter replied the topic: The ideas behind the "Light" and the "Dark" sides are both a
Since it seems that we are going by the code of fiction let me break it down to show why I disagree that the code of the darkside or sith is not one that is generally used.

Peace is a lie there is only passion

This is if true for the darksider or sith a great flaw in their thought process. In general passion is " strong and barely controllable emotion." or " intense, driving, or overmastering feeling or conviction" When looked at like this you would rarely if ever have a moment of clarity to see a few steps ahead or at best you are living with blinders on driven forward by desires you hardly control. The reason I say this is that it always heard, that you give in to your emotions when concerning the darkside. Vs letting things guide you but not giving in to them with the light ( in the fiction of course ) This leaves you open to all sorts of pitfalls of your own making or those of your opponent. Such as Maul being destroyed by his own passion for toying with Obi Wan or Vader being cut down by his passion for killing Obi-Wan blinding him to situation set up by his former master on Mustafar

Through Passion, I gain strength.

Again a falsehood when you see that the darkside controls you not you it. Sure the Sith claim they control the Force as a tool and their emotions empower them. But time and again we see that in reality they are blinded by it. Which leads to their downfall. Like so many tyrants in real life.

Through strength, I gain power.

Generally true but not always. Sometimes a weak-willed fool can have the power through luck and be just smart enough to hold on to it. Never mind that there are different kinds of strength and all of them have their ways of gaining and losing power. Basically, strength can help but its no guarantee of any sort of power never mind the sort that is widespread and lasting

Through power, I gain victory

Again not true. some of the strongest and most powerful people alive lose due to a moment of bad luck and no failing on their part. Whereas often those not seeking victory or power often are the ones that hold both the longest precisely because they do not want it.

Through victory my chains are broken, the Force shall free me

Victory can lead to all sorts of burdens and entrapments. It can burden you with rule or paint a target on your back as top dog. Its often a matter of trading one set of chains for an even more gilded set.

Basically giving in to strong emotions while it can temporarily be useful or cathartic is so full of risk that its not a way to live or to even use with great frequency. Its full of blinders and pitfalls that it rarely succeeds. The rare few that do are often not as happy with what they go as they think the might be. The rest well they thought they could ride the dragon but it inevitable eats them.
Now to my own real-life perception of light and dark. The light side is that which is productive and noncontrolling to the greatest degree. The dark is that which corrupts, blinds, addicts or otherwise unbalances you in the longer term if not chained with wisdome and serenity.

Knight of the Order/Youth Officer/IP Team lead.
Training Master: Jestor

Just a pop culture Jedi doing what I can
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17 May 2018 04:47 #321728 by Manu
Manu replied the topic: The ideas behind the "Light" and the "Dark" sides are both a

GizmoRazaar wrote: So then I may say that both philosophies, though both drastically different, are valid life applicants, and can and would assist one in the ability to live life to its fullest potential, just in different ways. So I ask you, fellow Jedi, what your observations of these ideologies are, and any comments on it. What is it that you all think of it?


If you compare a real (as in, not from the fiction) Jedi and Sith who have been exploring their paths long enough to mature into it, you will find they are virtually indistinguishable. This occurs because:

1. Both Jedi-ism and Sith-ism share the same fictional origins.

Thus most of the iconography and language is the same.

2. The most spiritually inspiring movies (i.e. the original trilogy) does not pitch Jedi vs. Sith as ideologically different.

Instead shows "Jedi" as one who has achieved mastery and "Dark" (since "Sith" is never used in the OT) as someone who failed along the way, became corrupted and ultimately consumed by their misdirected powers. This was the near-fate of Luke Skywalker, when he had to choose between saving his father, or destroying him and going to the Dark Side.

It goes without saying that no one would willingly want to be Dark as portrayed in ROTJ.

3. Sith-ism as real life application gathered force (no pun intended) as a result of a schism in Jedi-ism.

The OT has a huge eastern influence, but at some point some Jedi communities started to tie in philosophical elements that were becoming popular in the mainstream pop-neo-wiccan environment of "peace and love" feel good religions, which took away some focus off more serious exploration. Since it is rather difficult to throw a tennis ball at 20 Jedi without getting 50 different reactions, some people with more "radical" twists on Jedi-ism were gradually ostracized (purposefully) or felt left out (not on purpose) and "went dark" - which means they took a different spin on the same Jedi elements, and rebranded.

There are of course many who always dug into the whole Dark-Goth-Vampire-LHP vibe and simply resonate more with the Dark Side imagery, but as I said at the beginning, those who stick around long enough grow out of that "look at me I'm so dark" phase and develop serious study. The same can be said of Jedi, since Jedi-ism has the potential to attract the "Light and love and peace and wholly cannolli look at me swing this lightsaber" crowd. But those too grow out of that phase.

TL;DR: Both Jedi and Sith ideologies have their merits, and once stripped away from their initial seeming trappings, are quite compatible, if not complimentary.

"Enlightenment is a destructive process.” - Adyashanti

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17 May 2018 16:00 - 17 May 2018 16:27 #321744 by Manami
Manami replied the topic: The ideas behind the "Light" and the "Dark" sides are both a
I've always seen the Jedi/Sith divide as the expression of dualism within the Star Wars universe, part of the overall story being told - which (imo) is more of a cautionary tale about the dangers of such dualism than advocating one side or the other. With the way 1-3 and 7 & 8 have fleshed out the story of the two orders, it shows the flaws of both orders, really.

Though it is fiction, it parallels an essential division within Western esotericism that I find very meaningful. We have a general split that defines paths based on their orientation to purity: the "light" or "righthand" path seeks to abstain from impure substances, actions, thoughts, etc. that inflame the sensual aspects of the body & ego, while the "dark" or "lefthand" path maintains that unless such aspects of life are included in the spiritual process, they cannot be integrated, making true purity impossible. (This is a heavy simplification of the theory, but the general gist). Both sides have their points, as well as their dangers. One of the things I love about the The Last Jedi is that it contains a perfect illustration of what can happen at the extremes when there is no balance: at the "heights", one becomes isolated against the threat of being "tainted" and thus unable to participate in the dirty struggle of the human condition. In the "depths," one falls prey to the endless fascination of the self and its illusions, seeing a flatline infinity that just goes in circles.

I'm personally curious to see where the last movie of the set goes with this. In the tradition I came out of, the two "hands" are there to work in paradox, testing each other in order to cancel out some of the problematic tendencies this kind of work produces. These teachings reflect a fundamental quality of the human brain: the basic split between the unconscious dominance of the limbic system and the limitations in the power of the rational, conscious processes. While energy itself (or The Force) has no inherent dark/light orientation, we are generally geared to define things according to our self-interests and desires, with the rational justifications being just an overlay upon motivations that are often very hard to see within ourselves. When we create a Light to guide us, we also make the Dark stronger and more dense...if you've ever walked in the woods at night, you may see more of what's around you when your eyes adjust to the ambient light than by torchlight, which is only going to show you what you chose to focus it on.

As for modern Jedi/Sith, as I've seen in the parallel esoteric orders, the outcomes on either path are usually determined by what is in the person's heart and character. I've known people claiming the light side who are completely blind to the harmfulness of their words and actions, who are just as narcissistic and self-serving as the worst cases of the "dark" side - only they cloak their impurity by blaming it on other people/forces. I've known absolute trainwrecks on the "dark" path where people fall to addiction and the consequences of their vices, but I've also found some of my most trustworthy, honest, and utterly fearless friends there. Just walk carefully, whatever road you call your own.

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
Last Edit: 17 May 2018 16:27 by Manami. Reason: typo
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