I have always been here...

30 Aug 2017 21:35 - 30 Aug 2017 21:38 #300111 by Adder
Adder replied the topic: I have always been here...

Alexandre Orion wrote: Biological "machine" ? That doesn't really hold up though, Adder... Biology is not mechanical. This is one of the things that we learn early on : the "mechanical model of the universe" is reductive and seems wholly like a category error. We have built machines (the clock, for instance) and then they become the model for the cosmos ... Biology - as well as geology and logos we attribute to our investigations of how nature (including us) functions - is a development that predates our technology by billions of years. Nature didn't build "machines". ;)


Well as I stated, I disagree. Language needs to keep up with technology and so perhaps your using a different definition of machine. A lot of definitions which are written and learnt are seated in the past and not 'ideal' IMO. To me a machine is just a physical system operating to its specific system rules.

So IMO it's just different materials which allows different levels of complexity. Our 'technology' is crude materials of simple design because they are fashioned by our clumsy ole hands..... and so can be viewed reductively, but just because the biological 'machines' are complex enough to be beyond our capacity to reduce them to their irreducible place in their system, does not mean they are still not bound by the physical laws and therefore can be called biological machinery. :unsure:

It's why as the guy says in the video, neuroscientists are able to conduct objective measures on subjective experience... because awareness can be understood from a reductive approach (now that we have the tools capable of it). Unless I've misinterpreted him.

Knight of Jediism
GDip Comp, A.Div, CertIV Eng(Mech), MCP
Kni -- Deg -- Sem -- Vid -- Med -- Mod
...........

Last Edit: 30 Aug 2017 21:38 by Adder.
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31 Aug 2017 14:15 - 31 Aug 2017 14:16 #300164 by Proteus
Proteus replied the topic: I have always been here...
I think this harkens back to some things I have said in the past regarding how we talk about things, and how such ways of talking about things influences are automatic ideas of them.

In this case, calling something associated to a living organism mechanical, while we might be aware that it is biological may still encourage at least a subconscious deduction upon that realization. It mentally marks out many very essential factors to the fact we are biological, such as the fact that our existence arises out of being grown (not assembled or crafted like a potter crafts pots).

So if we began putting more focus into speaking about biological organisms in a more natural sense, it will not deduce this awareness and will instead encourage one which can both work in the way we do currently understand scientifically but ALSO encourage us to consider the aspects that are beyond our scientific understanding as well.

It is like, if every time I described you, personally, I simply called you "a thing"... well, by way of speaking, one COULD say you're a thing... but you're quite much more than just a thing, and it would be very inaccurate (even insulting) to deduce your existence down to that kind of notion. So, instead, I call you by your name. And your name is something that can represent you and consider who you are in a way that is a lot more inclusive to your identity. In the same way, speaking about the biological existence as something other than mechanical, but instead as biological can encompass everything that needs encompassing with the awareness of just how it differs from actual machinery. :)
Last Edit: 31 Aug 2017 14:16 by Proteus.
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01 Sep 2017 03:28 #300208 by MarVinKra
MarVinKra replied the topic: I have always been here...
Righto, here comes that post I mentioned!

In the 2/3 times I have talked to you on Skype in the guided discussions, you have sent me 2 files. The "Tao Te Ching" and a paper about "What it's like to be a Bat"

These 2, even though they are vastly different, let me step into a world of philosophy I have never seen/explored.
So my question to you is:
What books/papers/scrolls/tweets should I read to get a bigger grasp on this world of philosophy? Or more so, where do I start?

This, of course, can include personal favourites but should EXCLUDE a list that is 300 books long

May the Force be with you (but in French)
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01 Sep 2017 03:43 #300210 by Alexandre Orion
Alexandre Orion replied the topic: I have always been here...
Let's just go one at a time then -- :)

Find a copy of "The Myths we Live By" by Mary Midgley. That'll get you going ... ;)
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06 Sep 2017 02:47 - 06 Sep 2017 02:55 #300717 by Adder
Adder replied the topic: I have always been here...

Proteus wrote: I think this harkens back to some things I have said in the past regarding how we talk about things, and how such ways of talking about things influences are automatic ideas of them.

In this case, calling something associated to a living organism mechanical, while we might be aware that it is biological may still encourage at least a subconscious deduction upon that realization. It mentally marks out many very essential factors to the fact we are biological, such as the fact that our existence arises out of being grown (not assembled or crafted like a potter crafts pots).


Who makes the maker! I've got a different relationships with machines then perhaps.... to me they also undergo types of changes. Such that how they were created matters less to me, when I can view them for what they are and how they might change. It happens to be (usually) quite predicable, being relatively simple compared to biological machinery, but important enough to avoid making what I'd consider an unnecessary distinction.


Proteus wrote: So if we began putting more focus into speaking about biological organisms in a more natural sense, it will not deduce this awareness and will instead encourage one which can both work in the way we do currently understand scientifically but ALSO encourage us to consider the aspects that are beyond our scientific understanding as well.


Bio means 'life', and while I've mentioned 'cruder' matter and systems are still susceptible to change, I'm sure there are others definitions of life which could be used to challenge it..... but a machine can even reproduce and make itself or a variation of itself, if its made to. Id have to say the difference most probably is volition, but as we know plants most likely don't have it yet we'd agree they are called life. And nor even animals perhaps (including us), remembering the discussions about if we actually have free will, or just the illusion of it among complexity enough. But given cruder matter and systems are still susceptible to change, there is no need for it to limit us to within scientific understanding. But I get your point, it makes it convenient because its so predictable, because its suited for its purpose so well.... but so are earthlings so very well suited to Earth.

I think its better to free oneself from making such erroneous associations instead of avoiding them, but it does give a good platform to define a concept of unifying force against a concept of living force, but yea I'd just say they are points on a spectrum of complexity, and so long as appropriate labeling ensures I think the categorization is an optional additional label, rather then any distinct difference.


Proteus wrote: It is like, if every time I described you, personally, I simply called you "a thing"... well, by way of speaking, one COULD say you're a thing... but you're quite much more than just a thing, and it would be very inaccurate (even insulting) to deduce your existence down to that kind of notion. So, instead, I call you by your name. And your name is something that can represent you and consider who you are in a way that is a lot more inclusive to your identity. In the same way, speaking about the biological existence as something other than mechanical, but instead as biological can encompass everything that needs encompassing with the awareness of just how it differs from actual machinery. :)


Appropriate labeling is about accuracy, and as mentioned I think the terms being discussed are just different points on a spectrum of complexity. You've seen the final scene of Serenity, I've seen you post it here at TOTJO more then once I think, IMO its not just a metaphor for relationships, but also the human interaction with machinery when your life depends on it. It's not so trivial as it might sound :pinch: because your right, the mind does deduce things, but probably based on how you see the world more then anything.

Knight of Jediism
GDip Comp, A.Div, CertIV Eng(Mech), MCP
Kni -- Deg -- Sem -- Vid -- Med -- Mod
...........

Last Edit: 06 Sep 2017 02:55 by Adder. Reason: spacing
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09 Sep 2017 08:34 #301079 by Alexandre Orion
Alexandre Orion replied the topic: I have always been here...
I'm really enjoying being at home this morning...

...what is compelling me to think about getting ready to leave ? :laugh:

Human beings are funny. :cheer:
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09 Sep 2017 13:46 #301088 by Kobos
Kobos replied the topic: I have always been here...
We are for sure a goofy ape species...... :)
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13 Sep 2017 19:48 #301445 by Alexandre Orion
Alexandre Orion replied the topic: I have always been here...
Sometimes sneezing can come as quite a surprise. :blush:
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15 Sep 2017 16:09 #301651 by Alexandre Orion
Alexandre Orion replied the topic: I have always been here...
Just .... plain ..... exhausted ...... B) zzz zzz zzz

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17 Sep 2017 23:33 #301766 by Alexandre Orion
Alexandre Orion replied the topic: I have always been here...
Feeling a little down...

This too shall pass.
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