IP suggestion: Jordan Peterson

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07 Aug 2019 21:52 #341000 by steamboat28
You're really not, since hate speech is inherently inciteful, which isn't protected speech. Also, even if it were protected speech--which it isn't, which we've covered at least twice now--dehumanizing speech is still actionable and has consequences. That's why we have a time-honored tradition in the US of punching Nazis.

We're discussing giving a noted misogynist and transphobe an educational platform in a religious group that, in its doctrine, says everyone is equal. To ignore those facts in this discussion is ignorance at best, and malice at worst.
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07 Aug 2019 22:04 - 07 Aug 2019 22:18 #341001 by JamesSand
I wasn't that interested in this Jordan guy, but then this thread got spicy.

Time to have a listen to see if this guy is actually bad, or if just strikes a tiny wrong note with a tiny section of people, and now may as well be burned at the stake for witchcraft.

(Are we not allowed to say that sort of thing about witchcraft anymore? I'm not sure? I'm probably a product of the patriarchal catholic hegemony or something)


Consider, while I do that - that I like milk in my tea.

Did you know that? I like sweet milky tea with honey.

Do you?

If you don't, does that invalidate all my knowledge and wisdom on other matters?

Now, you might say milky tea, and opinions on pronouns are different, but they are really not. It's just a matter of what matters to you. Maybe it's tea. Maybe that's your hill to die on.

If someone's teachings on some things are good solid and agreeable to you, but he has a different view on a few other issues, do you just put him in cement shoes and send him to the bottom of the nearest river, or do you do what the rest of, hmm, let's say...Jediism does, and pick and choose the relevant bits that help you on your path, and "pass" on the other bits?


(Note, at this point I don't have an opinion on this Jordan guy of my own, I'm more wondering at that Manu suggested it. Manu has always seemed relatively sane to me, and that a few others are spinning up as if this guy is the leading committer of human rights atrocities since your historical tyrant, dictator, or conquerer of choice.
Last edit: 07 Aug 2019 22:18 by JamesSand.

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07 Aug 2019 22:22 #341002 by steamboat28

JamesSand wrote: Now, you might say milky tea, and opinions on pronouns are different, but they are really not.

Milky tea doesn't contribute to youth suicide rates.
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07 Aug 2019 22:34 #341003 by Proteus
It always puzzles me when watching various interviews of his how the other person throws insinuations at him out of left field because they don't stop to actually process what he is trying to say and why (or they filter their interpretation with their own agendas and biases). Then you have people following those sensational insinuations because they grew a similar group popularity as the group following JP which they complain about. In-group, out-group... I don't think it has as much to do with what JP says as it does with people doing what people would do anyway and not paying attention as to why.

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
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07 Aug 2019 22:39 #341004 by JamesSand

Milky tea doesn't contribute to youth suicide rates.


I had a really long reply to this, but it meandered too far from the point of the thread, so I guess I'll just leave it as "throwing the big S word out there hasn't proven or disproven this dude's relevance"

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07 Aug 2019 22:50 #341005 by Kelrax Lorcken

JamesSand wrote:

Milky tea doesn't contribute to youth suicide rates.


I had a really long reply to this, but it meandered too far from the point of the thread, so I guess I'll just leave it as "throwing the big S word out there hasn't proven or disproven this dude's relevance"


The arguments haven't been so much about whether or not this man's work is relevant, so much as "do we force a separation between the man's work and the man himself, and is it really in our best interest to be associated with the man, no matter how indirectly"?

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0

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07 Aug 2019 23:01 - 07 Aug 2019 23:09 #341006 by JamesSand

The arguments haven't been so much about whether or not this man's work is relevant, so much as "do we force a separation between the man's work and the man himself, and is it really in our best interest to be associated with the man, no matter how indirectly"?


Well I can give a straight answer to that, from my view on how the world should work -


Yes, you can separate someone's work from their entirety. A beautiful table is still a beautiful table, even if the carpenter kicks puppies.

and for the second - I think this whole fear-of-even-the-slightest-association thing that is popular these days is in poor taste, if Jedi had any character (or what I think character is....) they'd be more than confident enough in themselves to say "This specific piece we are presenting here, we believe is good value" and not be concerned that they would also be assumed to be implicated in that person's tax affairs, or any other area they may have acted or spoke in a fashion contrary to the brand*.

No one is saying put whoever forward as a Jedi Prophet - just that selected teachings have merit.



*Or, as so eloquently put before, since his work is the same rehashed garbage that self help as been since forever, just get a Qualified Jedi to redeliver it, in a Podcast or youtube channel that TotJO owns, throw in a few dead guy quotes older than copyright, and ta-da, TotJOs very own genuine "original" content for the IP.

This place is full of students, they all know how to plagiarise without looking like it. Someone rewrite his talks, less the bits that don't mesh with doctrine, and I'll record them.
Last edit: 07 Aug 2019 23:09 by JamesSand.

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07 Aug 2019 23:16 #341007 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

steamboat28 wrote: You're really not, since hate speech is inherently inciteful, which isn't protected speech. Also, even if it were protected speech--which it isn't, which we've covered at least twice now--dehumanizing speech is still actionable and has consequences. That's why we have a time-honored tradition in the US of punching Nazis.

We're discussing giving a noted misogynist and transphobe an educational platform in a religious group that, in its doctrine, says everyone is equal. To ignore those facts in this discussion is ignorance at best, and malice at worst.



If you insist, I shall demonstrate.

The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that hate speech is legally protected free speech under the First Amendment. The most recent Supreme Court case on the issue was in 2017, when the justices unanimously reaffirmed that there is effectively no "hate speech" exception to the free speech rights protected by the First Amendment.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_in_the_United_States

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam

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07 Aug 2019 23:39 #341008 by steamboat28

JamesSand wrote:

Yes, you can separate someone's work from their entirety. A beautiful table is still a beautiful table, even if the carpenter kicks puppies.

That's all well and good, but when the message of puppy-kicking is carved into the table, it becomes noticeably harder to distance the art from the artist. Jordan Peterson is problematic in that way.

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07 Aug 2019 23:47 #341009 by Williamkaede
We don't make non-Jedi an out-group, Vickers. There's no opposition or adversarial stance to it.

Passion, authenticity, power, victory.
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